You're totally assuming & speculative, additionally, shaming tactics on your part is low. I've found the opposite, the better condition the gun, the more pictures there are. You probably incorrectly refer to the chambers on a revolver as "charge holes" and call timing, "carry-up"....
Frustrated with sellers on GB
- Thread starter Greg11H20
- Start date
You're totally assuming & speculative, additionally, shaming tactics on your part is low. I've found the opposite, the better condition the gun, the more pictures there are. You probably incorrectly refer to the chambers on a revolver as "charge holes" and call timing, "carry-up"....
I’m not jumping hoops for some dipstick with a checklist that thinks he is a gun expert. I would like to know how a 3 day inspection period works. Do sellers expect a FFL to fool around with this ? The buyer has to pay transfer
fee and background check. I’m on both ends of this all the time. There is a minimum modicum of expertise required to buy intelligently. The same is required to sell. I’m not bashful about running people off. Half of Buyers are just out for entertainment and half of what’s left are fishing. I you deal
all the time you are stupid to misrepresent your wares. Your name and reputation is all you got, even on line.
fee and background check. I’m on both ends of this all the time. There is a minimum modicum of expertise required to buy intelligently. The same is required to sell. I’m not bashful about running people off. Half of Buyers are just out for entertainment and half of what’s left are fishing. I you deal
all the time you are stupid to misrepresent your wares. Your name and reputation is all you got, even on line.
Buick
Member
My favorite are the buyers who receive the gun and email you saying it arrived broken, but they don't want to return it they just want $200.
You have exactly no clue as to what you are talking about. I bought my first S&W in 1968 and still have it. I can take one completely apart and put it back together. I currently own forty something, have not counted them lately and can quickly evaluate one to my satisfaction as a shooter, not a collector.
StrawHat
Member
Actually, charge holes and carry up are correct S&W terminology. What do you call them?
Kevin
Charge holes are for a cap and ball revolver. On a modern revolver, I call them chambers. The charge is located inside a metallic cartridge.
Carry-up, sounds like a name someone came up with on the internet that stuck, I call it "timing". While carry up might be a legitimate term in the S&W factory, nothing is being carried inside that revolver mechanism, it's being pushed by the hand...
A few other useless terms: platform, utilize, trigger press etc...
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Timing refers to the relationship of cylinder stop, stop notch and chamber throat to barrel bore. Carry up is the correct term for the hand pressing on the ratchet tooth so that it carries the cylinder up to the point the stop engages the notch.
I assume the auction on the item your original post was about is over and instead of the sellers head exploding, he simply ignored you
I assume the auction on the item your original post was about is over and instead of the sellers head exploding, he simply ignored you
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If you are wheeling and dealing all the time 99% of participants are square
shooters. Everyone tries to dicker for the best deal but don’t pull any off the wall tricks. Then you have the 1%ers that intentionally misrepresent or hide issues with their gun.
I had a guy trade me a 19 for a 63 that was mint. Happy as a clam. Then out of the blue 1.5 years later he wanted $150 for “ gun being out of spec”
My pet peeve is when seller is shoddy on packing gun to ship.
shooters. Everyone tries to dicker for the best deal but don’t pull any off the wall tricks. Then you have the 1%ers that intentionally misrepresent or hide issues with their gun.
I had a guy trade me a 19 for a 63 that was mint. Happy as a clam. Then out of the blue 1.5 years later he wanted $150 for “ gun being out of spec”
My pet peeve is when seller is shoddy on packing gun to ship.
silicosys4
Member
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2024
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I think the sellers willingness to respond is directly related to the sellers understanding of the seriousness of the inquiry.
I find sellers much more responsive when I call them and speak to them over the phone, explain my concerns, and express my actual interest in purchasing the gun.
I recently bought a Standard Mfg in a one-off caliber off of GunsInternational. The seller had picture sufficient to verify the gun existed but did not include pictures necessary to verify that the gun was factory original.
I asked for pictures of the barrel script, and the serial numbers on the cylinder.
The seller did not want to remove the cylinder from the gun, but was willing to do so after I explained that without a serial number on the cylinder, I had to assume the cylinder and barrel were a replacement since Std. didn't have any records of that particular caliber ever being made.
The seller provided all the pictures I asked for, they showed factory serial numbers and barrel script,
and I purchased the gun.
Edit: I should add that I have shot myself in the foot. I recently bid on an auction for a poorly described registered magnum with terrible pictures.
I explained to the seller what I needed to see, they sent me pictures,
then promptly uploaded the new pictures to the auction that clearly showed it to be a legit registered magnum,
And the auction skyrocketed.
The seller and I both learned a lesson that day.
I find sellers much more responsive when I call them and speak to them over the phone, explain my concerns, and express my actual interest in purchasing the gun.
I recently bought a Standard Mfg in a one-off caliber off of GunsInternational. The seller had picture sufficient to verify the gun existed but did not include pictures necessary to verify that the gun was factory original.
I asked for pictures of the barrel script, and the serial numbers on the cylinder.
The seller did not want to remove the cylinder from the gun, but was willing to do so after I explained that without a serial number on the cylinder, I had to assume the cylinder and barrel were a replacement since Std. didn't have any records of that particular caliber ever being made.
The seller provided all the pictures I asked for, they showed factory serial numbers and barrel script,
and I purchased the gun.
Edit: I should add that I have shot myself in the foot. I recently bid on an auction for a poorly described registered magnum with terrible pictures.
I explained to the seller what I needed to see, they sent me pictures,
then promptly uploaded the new pictures to the auction that clearly showed it to be a legit registered magnum,
And the auction skyrocketed.
The seller and I both learned a lesson that day.
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A little off topic…
I’ve found a fair number of sellers are pawn stores or small gun shops and are just busy. I’ve been on the phone with a few and often get put on hold while person has to deal with a walk-in customer. If it’s something I’m really wanting it seems to be worth the effort. To an earlier posters point often a phone call is best.
Sellers probably get a bit jaded too from tire kickers.
I just pulled the trigger on an 6” PW .357 on GI listed as refinished. Only 2 not great pics. Sent an email stating a list of 5 questions and mentioned I’d be happy to talk if time permitting on sellers end. Ended up speaking with and getting plenty of good pics and discussed revolver function. Thanks to pics I believe it’s not refinished and turns out it letters to an LE agency. Right up my alley. I think if it is a gun you really might want it’s worth pursuing. I just try to be mindful of sellers environment.
I’ve found a fair number of sellers are pawn stores or small gun shops and are just busy. I’ve been on the phone with a few and often get put on hold while person has to deal with a walk-in customer. If it’s something I’m really wanting it seems to be worth the effort. To an earlier posters point often a phone call is best.
Sellers probably get a bit jaded too from tire kickers.
I just pulled the trigger on an 6” PW .357 on GI listed as refinished. Only 2 not great pics. Sent an email stating a list of 5 questions and mentioned I’d be happy to talk if time permitting on sellers end. Ended up speaking with and getting plenty of good pics and discussed revolver function. Thanks to pics I believe it’s not refinished and turns out it letters to an LE agency. Right up my alley. I think if it is a gun you really might want it’s worth pursuing. I just try to be mindful of sellers environment.
The hand pushing up on the tooth (thanks, for years I've called it the hand lugs, not knowing it was called a tooth, not sure about a ratchet though) on the ejector causes the cylinder stop to pop into the stop notch. If the nose or tip of the hand is worn or damaged, that would cause the revolver to be out of time, would it not? And if so, do they say the gun is "Out of Carry-up" or do they say it's out of time?
If there are 2 different terms, then thats indicative that 2 different operations are happening while the revolver action is being cycled, yet there are more, the trigger return spring is being compressed, the main spring is being flexed, the cylinder stop spring is being compressed, and they all happen in concert with one another.
The Smith & Wesson revolver is certainly one of the most fascinating mechanisms out there.
Smith & Wesson revolvers I have bought on Gunbroker over the last few years that had issues, despite having good pictures. In some instances, the seller stood behind it, sometimes not.
1. Model 66-1 P&R’d 6" Barrel NIB. I never asked anything about the mechanics of this gun, just the history of it. It belonged to an elderly gentleman who bought it new and never fired it. This gun was out of time on 2 chambers, meaning when you cycled it single action or double action, the cylinder stop would not click into the cylinder stop notches on the same 2 chambers. I called the seller, he said he had no idea, being a new revolver, he never bothered to check the timing, & he offered a full refund. I declined the return; I had the same problem with my issued Model 67-1 when I was a police officer with the Savannah Police Department in 1990. When I showed it to the Armorer, he handed me a bottle of break-free, told me to saturate the action, and dry fire it a lot, that it would eventually "wear in". That worked & it had the slickest double action pull. I thought I could do the same with this 66-1. That didn’t work, eventually I pulled the side plate off, mic’d the OAL of the hand, found a hand that was a smidge taller in my parts box, and replaced it. It still did not correct the problem. I put the original hand back in, tried the dry firing routine again, and it still didn’t fix it. I ended up selling it to a local ffl.
2. 27-4 4” this gun was low mileage, but the BC gap was .015, and I sent it back to S&W for the BC gap to be corrected. Customer Service rep called me and told me the barrel was bad and they’d have to cut the barrel off, wanted to know if they could put a 6” barrel on it as that’s what they had on hand. Rep said the gun was old and the barrel was shot out, after I pressed him on the issue, he admitted that on the non-pinned barrel guns, it was too difficult to get the barrels off without cracking the frame at the top strap, so they just cut them off. I had him return it to me without the work.
3. Detroit Police 4 inch LNIB, 64-5, this gun looked great, but I neglected to ask for a picture of the ejector / chambers. I got the gun, and every one of the teeth on the ejector were damaged, like someone sat and spun the cylinder and slammed it shut a bunch (Bogarting the cylinder, that’s another technical term)…that one was sold off.
4. Victory Model 5” in .38 S&W (another problem in today’s market, so many sellers list a .38 Special when it’s a .38 S&W and vice versa) not the same cartridge, and not designed to be fired in .38 Special, another gun with a ring/bulge in the barrel. Seller took the gun back.
5. Model 19-3 4” nickel, everything looked good on the revolver except it had a ring in the barrel. Sold that to a local FFL.
Seems like there some consensus in this thread of “suck it up buddy, everyone gets a lemon once in a while”. I won’t do that if I can help it, and I can’t imagine anyone actually does that.
If you have a lemon story, please share.
1. Model 66-1 P&R’d 6" Barrel NIB. I never asked anything about the mechanics of this gun, just the history of it. It belonged to an elderly gentleman who bought it new and never fired it. This gun was out of time on 2 chambers, meaning when you cycled it single action or double action, the cylinder stop would not click into the cylinder stop notches on the same 2 chambers. I called the seller, he said he had no idea, being a new revolver, he never bothered to check the timing, & he offered a full refund. I declined the return; I had the same problem with my issued Model 67-1 when I was a police officer with the Savannah Police Department in 1990. When I showed it to the Armorer, he handed me a bottle of break-free, told me to saturate the action, and dry fire it a lot, that it would eventually "wear in". That worked & it had the slickest double action pull. I thought I could do the same with this 66-1. That didn’t work, eventually I pulled the side plate off, mic’d the OAL of the hand, found a hand that was a smidge taller in my parts box, and replaced it. It still did not correct the problem. I put the original hand back in, tried the dry firing routine again, and it still didn’t fix it. I ended up selling it to a local ffl.
2. 27-4 4” this gun was low mileage, but the BC gap was .015, and I sent it back to S&W for the BC gap to be corrected. Customer Service rep called me and told me the barrel was bad and they’d have to cut the barrel off, wanted to know if they could put a 6” barrel on it as that’s what they had on hand. Rep said the gun was old and the barrel was shot out, after I pressed him on the issue, he admitted that on the non-pinned barrel guns, it was too difficult to get the barrels off without cracking the frame at the top strap, so they just cut them off. I had him return it to me without the work.
3. Detroit Police 4 inch LNIB, 64-5, this gun looked great, but I neglected to ask for a picture of the ejector / chambers. I got the gun, and every one of the teeth on the ejector were damaged, like someone sat and spun the cylinder and slammed it shut a bunch (Bogarting the cylinder, that’s another technical term)…that one was sold off.
4. Victory Model 5” in .38 S&W (another problem in today’s market, so many sellers list a .38 Special when it’s a .38 S&W and vice versa) not the same cartridge, and not designed to be fired in .38 Special, another gun with a ring/bulge in the barrel. Seller took the gun back.
5. Model 19-3 4” nickel, everything looked good on the revolver except it had a ring in the barrel. Sold that to a local FFL.
Seems like there some consensus in this thread of “suck it up buddy, everyone gets a lemon once in a while”. I won’t do that if I can help it, and I can’t imagine anyone actually does that.
If you have a lemon story, please share.
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I asked so many questions from the guy on GB ,who is always happy to present a special offering thàt I am banned from his sales. He has lots of pictures and a model history going back to the dark ages, but no specifics.
A renwax salesman
A renwax salesman
First the tip of the hand is seldom the problem. While I suppose it could get broken it is unlikely and as it is a hardened part and the ratchet teeth soft the teeth will wear long before the hand. But, a hand/ratchet engagement that doesn't get the cylinder turned to the point the stop fully engages the stop notch isn't "carrying up". A cylinder that has the stop engaged and a chamber out of line with the barrel is out of time. This can be fixed by using a different stop and or peening the stop notch.
Here I am checking a cylinder to be sure it times. Only parts in the gun are the cylinder and the stop and its spring. As this is a 45 acp cylinder the pin in the brass bushing threaded into the frame is a .452
Here is the tool used by the factory to cut ratchet new teeth. It uses a factory hand of the correct length for the frame size and the extra leverage works to make the hand peel the excess off the face of the tooth
Look at about 4:30 to see it being used.
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ3HDLkB5l8[/ame]
I have made several of those tools now.
During the operation of a S&W revolver as the trigger is a busy little beaver when pulled as the forward portion of it trips the stop down just long enough for the stop to pull out of the stop, then releases the stop and it rides against the cylinder (creating the turn line), the trigger also press back on rebound slide, its hand is moved up and goes forward in its frame window to engage tooth, AND its DA sear begins to rotate the hammer back loading the main spring. Then the DA sear hand the hammer off to a part of the trigger itself as it travels farther pressing back more on hammer, its spring and of course the rebound slide. It is remarkable really. Some of it has to be very precise. The stop not so much, the hand and ratchet some, but to me the DA sear engagement is the hardest to get just right, for that buttery smooth trigger.
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First the tip of the hand is seldom the problem. While I suppose it could get broken it is unlikely and as it is a hardened part and the ratchet teeth soft the teeth will wear long before the hand. But, a hand/ratchet engagement that doesn't get the cylinder turned to the point the stop fully engages the stop notch isn't "carrying up". A cylinder that has the stop engaged and a chamber out of line with the barrel is out of time. This can be fixed by using a different stop and or peening the stop notch.
Here I am checking a cylinder to be sure it times. Only parts in the gun are the cylinder and the stop and its spring. As this is a 45 acp cylinder the pin in the brass bushing threaded into the frame is a .452
Here is the tool used by the factory to cut ratchet new teeth. It uses a factory hand of the correct length for the frame size and the extra leverage works to make the hand peel the excess off the face of the tooth
Look at about 4:30 to see it being used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ3HDLkB5l8
I have made several of those tools now.
During the operation of a S&W revolver as the trigger is a busy little beaver when pulled as the forward portion of it trips the stop down just long enough for the stop to pull out of the stop, then releases the stop and it rides against the cylinder (creating the turn line), the trigger also press back on rebound slide, its hand is moved up and goes forward in its frame window to engage tooth, AND its DA sear begins to rotate the hammer back loading the main spring. Then the DA sear hand the hammer off to a part of the trigger itself as it travels farther pressing back more on hammer, its spring and of course the rebound slide. It is remarkable really. Some of it has to be very precise. The stop not so much, the hand and ratchet some, but to me the DA sear engagement is the hardest to get just right, for that buttery smooth trigger.
Thank you!!! That was most informative, and some of those terms I don't like are used in the video, so I learned something new. Again, I appreciate it, thanks. Greg.
