Gander Mtn. screws up royally

[USAF385]

Good post Bob.

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand the stores point of view. My biggest complaint was the attitude. He didn"t just explain straw purchases and say he couldn't do the sale.. he was "mean" as my GF put it. Mean to the point where she doesn't want to go into the store for a while in fear she may see him. She is not a timid person when dealing with people in a situation like this, so I can only imagine he really was being rather... mean. Her brother agrees with her.

I still don't know the legal stuff with the second form that needs to be filled out, but like I mentioned in my original post, Karma caught the employee. Since he was so concerned about doing the sale the right way, it's amusing that he didn't do the final sale properly.

As of today, her dad hasn't returned to fill out the form yet.

 

[66TAS]

If the Dad gave the rifle to his son, it was not a straw purchase.

Thats what I was thinking. If it was purchased as a gift for a family member its not a straw purchase.

 

[swman]

Over the weekend my girlfriend went to Gander Mountain with her brother.. a Corporal in the USMC just back from Afghanistan. He saw a used AR-15 and wanted to pick it up. He didn't have his PA license so no dice (he had his military ID and NC ID). My girlfriend couldn't buy it because the lad behind the counter wouldn't have it and instead tried to lecture them about straw purchases. He was being very rude and acting like an overall.. poopy face. (Trying to keep this family friendly! ) Of course they didn't stand around and let him ramble. I mean.. sure he's doing his job... and we all know servicemen shouldn't be allowed guns.

Anyway.. they didn't get the gun. Later that day though their father and I went to Gander Mountain so he could buy it for his son. Which he did. It didn't have the rear sight, so he got them to throw in some scope mounts for free. Filled out the form, got the gun and went home.

The next day, the lad behind the counter called my girlfriend's dad. (I say lad, he's probably the same age as me, but once someone in a store like Gander Mtn. goes on a power trip with an attitude, they lose my respect and become "lad".) When he filled out the paper work, he only filled out the long gun form. I guess for AR-15 style rifles and pistol grip shotguns you need to fill out that AND the handgun form. The lad only had him fill out the former, so was all panicy asking him to come and fill out the other form. "You got to fill this out ASAP or we can get in trouble with the feds!!"

My GFs dad WILL go fill out the form.. eventually. But I think it's a good thing to let the lad sweat it out for a few days and hope he doesn't get in trouble. Perhaps this is what he needs in order to remember to do his job properly.

Nothing like a little karma. My guess is if he didn't act like such a .... poop head... to my GF and her brother, he would have remembered to do the sale properly.

In Virginia servicemen stationed here are treated like residents and are allowed to buy in-state.

 

[tomf52]

The second form in question is the PA state form that goes to the state police in PA. I have encountered this form in every purchase I have made for the last five years I have lived in this state. Basically a duplicate of the federal 4473 federal paper but with their own format.

 

[venomballistics]

Not that I'm a Gander Mountain fan, but that *was* an attempted straw purchase. Even the eventual purchase by the father arguably was, if the son repays the father. It would only escape being a straw purchase if the father bought it with his own money as a legitimate gift and the son didn't pay him back. Even then, if the father is a resident of Penn, and the son is a resident of NC, it is illegal to transfer the rifle to him. It would have to go through an FFL. It does not matter that they are blood relatives, or if it is a gift, etc. It's still a verboten transfer.

If the son gives dad the money, then it was an illegal straw purchase *and* an illegal transfer to an out of state resident.

The correct way to handle the transaction would have been to purchase the gun at Gander and have it shipped to a receiving FFL in NC.

why is this even a law?
I can certainly see straw purchase laws in effect for total strangers and friends buying friends "just got outta prison gifts" and even lighter gray dealings.
But if my father, Mother, wife, brother or sister see fit to wrap some festive paper around a gift of steel ... thats just American tradition

 

[WC145]

The second form in question is the PA state form that goes to the state police in PA. I have encountered this form in every purchase I have made for the last five years I have lived in this state. Basically a duplicate of the federal 4473 federal paper but with their own format.

Sounds like de facto registration to me.

 

[bummer]

Sounds like de facto registration to me.

Fast EDDIE just want's to make us safe from ourselves

 

[Frizzman]

I think the store and it's agents are free to deny a sale to anyone if they are not comfortable with doing the sale, aren't they? It seems that just reading this debate points out that the laws can be confusing. There is no excuse for being rude though. The firearms laws are as confusing as the tax laws. If I was making the sale and had some doubt about the legality, I would also not do it. My luck is that if I bent the rules I would get screwed for it.

So far as screwing up on the paperwork, is there anyone here who hasn't done something like that? I know I have. Just because somebody else acts like a butthole doesn't mean I have to. I like to think I am better than that. I blame the crazy and stupid gun laws we have to put up with!

 

[Jerry in SC]

A person can buy a long arm in any state in person if his/her home state allows it (and obviously if the person can legally own a long gun), there is no longer a "contiguous state" rule. Some dealers won't do it, others do it regularly. There may be some legal ramifications to selling a long gun to an out of state resident due to the complexity of some state and municipal gun laws.

Potential straw purchases are being looked at with a magnifying glass.

 

[GatorFarmer]

why is this even a law?
I can certainly see straw purchase laws in effect for total strangers and friends buying friends "just got outta prison gifts" and even lighter gray dealings.
But if my father, Mother, wife, brother or sister see fit to wrap some festive paper around a gift of steel ... thats just American tradition

If it is a legitimate gift - father purchases gun for son with own money, wraps and gives, then that isn't a strawman. It *is* a strawman purchase if father buys gun for son, son gives father the money... regardless of *why* the father bought the gun instead of the son and regardless of the relationship. If it was not a bonafide gift, then the father was not the "actual purchaser", the son was. In the OP's situation, it avoids the strawman rule if the father buys the rifle and gives it to the son without receiving compensation.

The second problem is that one can't gift a gun to a resident of another state. Doesn't matter if it is a blood relative, spouse, etc. A non FFL can not legally transfer a firearm to anyone who is a legal resident of a different state. Yes, people do it all the time, but it is still verboten.

Why is the law written that way? Don't know. It's been like that since the GCA of '68, so it isn't really new.

 

[ladder13]

A non FFL can not legally transfer a firearm to anyone who is a legal resident of a different state. Yes, people do it all the time, but it is still verboten.

Even long guns? Didn't know that. I tought it was legal to buy a long gun as long as the purchase is legal in the state purchased and the buyers home state.
BTW, I agree on your straw man argument. Money exchanging hands makes it a straw purchase.

 

[Andy Griffith]

Actually, if I am correct- and that is a big IF, the young boy, er....the salesman at the store doesn't really have to tell or explain to you that you are committing a "straw sale." He could have had her fill out the form, "delay" it and call BATFE and report a potential straw sale, until agents either give the store employee a directive to sell the firearms in question to you, or you got a knock at your door by agents of the BATFE. Of course, if they deem it a straw purchase- that is a felony. Whether the person that wants someone else to fill out the form is eligible to fill out the form legally is of no consequence to the way the law is written.

At least, that is the way it was explained to me by my favorite dealer, and several dealers around here reportedly do this if they think there is anything strange at all.

Dealers just want to stay in business to make a living and most of them enjoy our hobby throughly- they're not just money hungry.
There was a BATF sting operation in Atlanta a few years ago that sounded very close to your situation, and several dealers got written up, and I believe two or three had their license's pulled.

 

[USAF385]

Well I just got of the phone with my GF's brother. He is in fact a PA resident.

As far as the purchasing goes. It was a gift from the parents.

Now if he had bought it in the first place, he would have been technically buying it for his parents to give to him because they were going to reimburse him...... now would THAT be considered a straw purchase?

I still don't know what's going on with the forms.

 

[Andy Griffith]

Well I just got of the phone with my GF's brother. He is in fact a PA resident.

As far as the purchasing goes. It was a gift from the parents.

Now if he had bought it in the first place, he would have been technically buying it for his parents to give to him because they were going to reimburse him...... now would THAT be considered a straw purchase?

I still don't know what's going on with the forms.

The only thing that I do know for a fact, is that a dealer can refuse to carry through with a transaction for any reason he thinks that it may not be "on the level." When a dealer sees actions or statements to the effect of that previously stated, he should never go through with a sale, period and/or call his local branch of the BATFE.

Just chock this whole thing up as a learning experience about the bureaucracy known as firearm laws of the United States and be thankful that everything turned out just peachy and without incident.

 

[venomballistics]

If it is a legitimate gift - father purchases gun for son with own money, wraps and gives, then that isn't a strawman. It *is* a strawman purchase if father buys gun for son, son gives father the money... regardless of *why* the father bought the gun instead of the son and regardless of the relationship. If it was not a bonafide gift, then the father was not the "actual purchaser", the son was. In the OP's situation, it avoids the strawman rule if the father buys the rifle and gives it to the son without receiving compensation.

The second problem is that one can't gift a gun to a resident of another state. Doesn't matter if it is a blood relative, spouse, etc. A non FFL can not legally transfer a firearm to anyone who is a legal resident of a different state. Yes, people do it all the time, but it is still verboten.

Why is the law written that way? Don't know. It's been like that since the GCA of '68, so it isn't really new.

Most of my gripe is the other state part. This would seem to be sloppy legislation at its finest and an undue burden on us that should be streamlined

 

[dant]

bummer really.....

I agree with Andy G, the law is the law..and yes, dealers have "lost" their licenses for just simple of a reason...around here in the Cleveland area, they reduced the number of FFL's on "technecalities"(errors) as well as "straw purchases", under the threat of felony conviction...oh well, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.........