good defensive ammo for the mod 10?

[Doug M.]

#4 is generally considered to have sub-optimal penetration on an offender wearing a heavy jacket.

In a .38, it is hard to go wrong with plain old wadcutters, with SWC also a good choice and used as reloads. If I were really pushing for HPs, it would likely be the Black Hills with the all copper Barnes bullet.

 

[Hapworth]

#4 is generally considered to have sub-optimal penetration on an offender wearing a heavy jacket.

In a .38, it is hard to go wrong with plain old wadcutters, with SWC also a good choice and used as reloads. If I were really pushing for HPs, it would likely be the Black Hills with the all copper Barnes bullet.

But how to get #4 buck through a Model 10?

Yeah, going by the tests, #1 is the smallest buck that still makes protocol penetration. I've also found #4 kicks more and spreads wide fast compared to a dedicated defense buck load like Remington's Managed Recoil or the Federal LE Flight Control rounds.

As for wadcutters, I follow the discussions on their defensive utility, but assume it's the bullet itself that's being discussed, loaded to defense velocities; I'd assume the cream puff "waductters" -- meaning match loads -- at approximately 600 feet persecond would be a bit weak for defense?

 

[Tyree1867]

Another vote for the "FBI load", that is 158 gr, lead semi wadcutter hollow point, low flash from Buffalo Bore. In addition to the effectiveness of the round, your lawyer will be able to say "the FBI used this exact same round"

 

[T. McIntyre]

This is one long running thread!

I've taken to running hot loaded full wadcutters out of my J Frame. I back it up with older lswchp loads, simply due to the wadcutters profile being somewhat prone to being difficult to speed reload.

I'm not a scientist so I've done no scientific research, but in shooting a whole bunch of critters with handguns, I've observed that large meplats tend to put the smack down on stuff better that ball,rnl, and some hollow points, which quite often fail to expand.

There is good reason why the most experienced handgun hunters I know tend to favor large meplat, heavy for caliber projectiles.

I've also read a bit of Doc GKRs research on the subject, and his testing tends to parallel my field observations.

A belated happy Easter to y'all.

 

[Nevada Ed]

In post #29..........

the 38 Special snub nose with the standard CD Hornady load, if you read the article..........

only penetrated 7.6"..........


One reason to move up to at least the CD +P for a SD loading
if you go the little 110gr route.

 

[Hapworth]

In post #29..........

the 38 Special snub nose with the standard CD Hornady load, if you read the article..........

only penetrated 7.6"..........


One reason to move up to at least the CD +P for a SD loading
if you go the little 110gr route.

You think I posted an article I didn't read?

Let's give context to the above cherry pick: the author, Camp, goes at length to explain that he's without resources to replicate FBI protocol testing, and is using wet pack. He specifically states that this therefore isn't a proper test of penetration, but will likely approximate typical expansion.

Camp indeed reports the Hornady Critical Defense 110 grain FTX .38 Special standard pressure load penetrates 7.6"...and then goes on to say that based on how the CD load performed in wet pack, "I would expect this load to penetrate approximately 11.4 to 12" or so in ballistic gelatin."

Why leave that out?

Camp concludes, "I have not seen any ammunition from any maker that is more consistent and any more likely to expand under varied conditions as this", and endorses the load for self defense use.

And Camp knew his stuff...

Why, too, exclude the other tests linked? In calibrated ballistic gelatin the CD standard pressure load yielded:

- (bare gel) 12.1", 12.7", 9.5"
- (denim+gel) 19"+, 14.2"

So whereas I agree with you that opting for the CD +P is preferred to build in performance breathing room, the standard pressure can do the job, too; competes on even footing with other popular .38 defense loads in overall very good though not flawless performance; and shouldn't be assessed with selectively chosen facts.

hi-powers--handguns: Informal Tests: Hornady Critical Defense .380 & .38 Special

<b>.38spl: Hornady FTX vs. Speer 135gr GDHP vs. CorBon 110gr DPX</b>

38 Special 10 Percent Ballistic Gelatin

.38 Special JHP Performance through Bone Simulant Plates with Ballistic Gelatin Backing

 

[captainjohnsofd]

Whichever load you choose you must practice with it. You must determine point of aim and recoil. Keep in mind that 110 grain loads will shoot lower than 158 grain loads. At self defense distances there will not be a huge difference but you still must keep that fact in mind. Also find out the penetration and expansion of the load you choose since you may need to discharge it indoors and it may penetrate interior walls. Hopefully you will never need to fire a round inside your home. This is all part of being a responsible citizen.

 

[gwpercle]

The load you and your gun shoot the best.
Accuracy counts and a fast follow up shot is not a bad thing !.
Get a selection of suggested ammo and go to the range, let your targets and shooting feelings guide your selection. And with fixed sights, choose something that shoots close to point of aim. They are usually regulated to standard velocity 158 grain loads. Kentucky windage in a defensive situation is not the best thing. Only hits will save you.
Gary

 

[papajohn428]

I feel it my duty to warn y'all about another defensive ammo debacle, I don't expect a lot from the various off-brands like Aguilla, but I expected a LOT more from a brand like Hornady! On simple blind faith, I bought a box of the "Hornady Custom" ammo in 38 Special, which lists a 158-grain XTP Hollow point bullet at 900 fps at the muzzle, to carry on duty.

Thank heavens I didn't have to use it! When I got a chance to test it I lined up four gallon jugs and let one fly, it easily perforated all four and kept right on going. So I put up five jugs, and tried again. Same result, and the exit hole in jug #5 was tiny. So I put up SIX jugs, and the bullet was found in the back wall of the last jug, with ZERO expansion. I was flabbergasted. I have always trusted Hornady to put out good stuff, spent around $4K of my own money to test all the defensive loads in various calibers, and always got good results with Hornady ammo.

Not this time. XTP bullet or not, the slugs could have been reloaded and fired again, they were that pristine, except for the rifling marks. If and when I get time, I will write Dave Emery and ask why on earth they put out such a horrid product, I trusted them to give me good ammo for defensive purposes, but this stuff is absolute ****. The Aguilla stuff wasn't any worse, and might even be better than this "premium" Hornady Custom ammo, which sells for about a buck a shot. Absolutely HORRID stuff. Barely suitable for paper punching, let alone defensive use, unless the bad guy is in an armor-plated Buick. Yeesh.

 

[Hapworth]

I feel it my duty to warn y'all about another defensive ammo debacle...the "Hornady Custom" ammo in 38 Special, which lists a 158-grain XTP Hollow point bullet at 900 fps at the muzzle, to carry on duty....

Although Hornady advertises the XTP round for hunting and duty, among shooters it's considered a hunting round for the reasons you experienced; for social work, if you prefer Hornady stick with Critical Duty or Critical Defense.

 

[Mediumbore]

+1 for the traditional LSWCHP. The track record is tough to refute. Not a magic bullet, but solid. I also like the .38+P Gold Dot as relied upon by NYPD and LAPD for the remaining wheel guns in service.

 

[CH4]

Many good choices, but I prefer 135 Speer Gold Dot.

 

[ContinentalOp]

On simple blind faith, I bought a box of the "Hornady Custom" ammo in 38 Special, which lists a 158-grain XTP Hollow point bullet at 900 fps at the muzzle, to carry on duty.

Thank heavens I didn't have to use it! When I got a chance to test it I lined up four gallon jugs and let one fly, it easily perforated all four and kept right on going. So I put up five jugs, and tried again. Same result, and the exit hole in jug #5 was tiny. So I put up SIX jugs, and the bullet was found in the back wall of the last jug, with ZERO expansion. I was flabbergasted.

For as long as XTP has been on the market everything I've read said it was designed for maximum penetration with minimal expansion so I'm not surprised at all about your results. I'd only use XTP in a .380, assuming it fed reliably.

 

[papajohn428]

I'd buy Gold Dots in massive quantities if I could find them. Other calibers seem to be readily available, but the long-hoarded case of Gold Dots I bought ten years ago is nearly gone, and I'm looking for a suitable duty load. The Critical Defense ammo is light-for-caliber, the Critical Duty ammo is hard as a rock and designed for barrier penetration, and the good old FBI load is nowhere to be found. What I want is a good expanding bullet in a weight of 140-158 grains that works well from a 4" barrel.

Is that asking so much? I can find Gold Dots in 40 caliber any day of the week, but I haven't seen a box of 38's in several years, and I've been looking hard.

Given modern technology and all the excellent designs available, good defensive ammo shouldn't cost $1.50 a shot.