Good Grief S&W, Strike Three! (new Model 41 7") - see post #92

[Greyman50]

Holy Cow! SWAG is the bore was not cleaned after initial gun drilling leaving " crud" in hole. Appears rifling button was not push/ pulled through in a Steady Even rate leaving " steps" and gouging thanks to " crud" left from drilling. Perhaps the coolant/ lube for button was off? Regardless this is simply really Poor machining, certainly not expected in a $1,400 pistol. In light of the "current situation" with qualified, experienced skilled labor, not surprised . Who was the QC/QA guy? Ray Charles??????

 

[AreWeNotMen?]

Okay, to cover a few posted comments (and not artificially build my post count):

The hassle of buying used w/o inspection, shipping costs, up to $100 fee at FFL to accept a private party or dealer transfer, etc. was not appealing to me. None were local, and prices here in CA tend to be stupider than most other places.

Although I've bought more handguns used than new, sometimes my OCD tendencies rule and I cannot get pass some other icky human having "violated" what I plan to own. Examples? Last few new vehicles I bought literally just came off the delivery truck (yet I've bought innumerable used vehicles without issue), I reach for the box further back in the display of whatever at the store...I know its weird and inconsistent, but its me.

Twas cleaned thoroughly the same night I got it home - that's when the bore scope found the uglies.

I emailed v. called because I like a written record; they sent a prepaid FedEx label this morning and I shipped it back this afternoon.

I don't want my money back, I want an appropriate quality Model 41.

I've tried before, but in my experience S&W does not explain their failures, does not sufficiently explain what they did to "correct" the issue, and has little empathy with us - their customers.

The answer to "the $1400 question" is I dunno - didn't want to waste time and ammo shooting a gun I knew was going to be different in its ultimate configuration (shooting club is 30 minutes away - no "back 40 range" here).

As disappointing as this, I'll be sure to let you know how it goes.

PS - I'm adding a pic of the "third-world quality" muzzle/crown for for fun.

 

[hkcavalier]

That looks like a Siberian diamond mine...

 

[AreWeNotMen?]

That looks like a Siberian diamond mine...

If only it were, if only...

 

[6string]

RELINE!

If it was my m41, I'd get the barrel relined by a gunsmith who specializes in custom work for Bullseye pistol.
I recommend Alex Hamilton of Ten Ring Precision, Jerry Keefer, or David Sams.
These guys have great reputations and regularly do this work. For serious target shooting most m41s these days need this type of custom work. Typically costs about $200.

 

[Sevens]

Jerry Keefer passed away nearly four years ago.

 

[6string]

Jerry Keefer passed away nearly four years ago.

Wow, I didn't know that! Sad to hear!
And, I thought I was timely just to have remembered that Lou Lombardi retired from Falcon Machining. He did some GREAT .22 barrel relines on m41s, High Standards, and Hämmerli 208s.

I recommend getting a reline on the m41 barrel vs. getting a Clark m41 barrel. I have always suspected, based on their appearance the machining of the locking lug, that their barrels are blanks that they get from S&W.
The custom builders use barrel liners from Anschütz or Lothar Walther. This is match grade stuff, not to be confused with the DIY products sold by Midway, etc.

By the way, not a lot of people know that at least at one time (may still be true?) that S&W made three different types of interchangeable breech blocks to fit the m41 slide. These were made with the rim recess either centered, or slightly biased to the left or right. The idea was to better align a cartridge for barrels whose bores do not perfectly align with the slide.

 

[chief38]

....and the $1400 question is......how does it shoot?

If you bought a brand new BMW and it was scratched, dented, and dirty I don't think the $64,000 question would be, "how does it drive".

Weather or not the gun shoots perfectly is not what one wants after spending his/her hard earned money on it. I think the Factory should either make it right or refund 100% of the money spent on it. Buy hey, that's just my opinion.

 

[F75gunslinger]

I would have at least shot the gun first to see how it did. I've seen guns with lots of work shoot mediocre groups and I've seen guns with a bore that looks like 5 miles of dirt road shoot cloverleafs. It all depends on the gun.

 

[chief38]

I have to apologize, but I'm a service and reliability kind of shooter, and Lord knows, I will never own a BMW. Heck, I don't even own a bore scope. I could care less "weather" the bore is pristine or not.....or what it looks like. If the gun is safe, accurate and reliable, I'm happy.

I understand your point. I would agree that if you own a vintage firearm, tool, car, or whatever and it works 100% all the time - then why not be happy. Function over form. In this case, paying $1,400 for a .22 pistol that is "supposed to be" on the top of the heap, brand new in the box and pristine - most anyone I know would not expect holes, pitting and major defects and would be outraged as I would.

BTW I'd never buy another BMW (been there - done that - so we agree there - lol) but let's just say one saved up for years for a new car of whatever the manufacturer, and it came in all damaged - again, if it handled and rode great that's a plus, but doesn't mean they shouldn't be upset that it is still damaged. Just saying......

 

[minconrevo]

In the manufacture of a barrel there should be a number of steps to swab the bore, inspect/gauge and do it again a couple more times at various points along the way to a complete barrel. The gunk on the cleaning patches could be a preservative oil applied after test fire to protect the bore during shipping. Doesn't look like the initial gun drilling of the barrel blank went especially well. The "chunks" could be lead debris scrapped off the bullets during test firing. Don't know if you have tried a brass cored brass brush on your bore; I'd suggest that to see if the lead chunks will be removed.

The Mod 41 I owned years ago had a really stiff thumb safety and the removal of the barrel was a tough two hand job. Both those aspects are desirable IMO for a target pistol's function and long term accuracy. Now the knife sharp trigger guard edges . . . . . no.

 

[sceva]

Sorry to hear about the issues with this new Mod 41.

As for the safety, the stiffness appears to be inherent to these; my 1973 vintage one is also stiff. Not as stiff as you describe but stiff.

As for the barrel; Are they still button rifled or are they using the EDM process or broaching the rifling now?

Either way, I am sure S&W will take care of the issues and make things right.

 

[kas9412]

I agree with sceva regarding the safety - safeties on 41's have always been very stiff. Personally, because this is a target gun/range toy, I never use the safety on mine. Bullseye shooters, for which this pistol was originally designed, almost never use safeties. Consequently, that issue will likely not be addressed very well by S&W. However, the barrel is another story. Hopefully, S&W just pops a new barrel on it and sends it back to you quickly.

Good Luck!

 

[Larks]

I do love my M41, after about 10 years of ownership it is still probably my favourite handgun despite its faults - and sadly there are one or two.

They really are tremendously accurate - mine makes me look like a much better shooter than I think I really am. And they just feel so nice in the hand in weight and balance and grip and are a delight to shoot.

In regards to the problems that you're experiencing:

The trigger guard barrel release will actually free up quite quickly with use so don't worry about that one. If like me you clean a .22 handgun after every use you'll probably find by the 4th clean that it is fine.

The safety is indeed a problem on these firearms being very stiff, small, sharp edged (I filed my edges) and not at all user friendly. You can ease up on the detent screw (?) to make it a bit easier but it's rather hit and miss and not a satisfactory remedy.

I really wish someone would produce an after market extended safety lever (somewhat like on a competition race gun) that'd improve the leverage, positivity of movement/position, comfort and usability.

In regards to the barrel - I really think that S&W are dropping the game here. When I bought mine about 10 years ago I found that I was seeing a number of tumbled rounds on paper targets. I could feel when swabbing the barrel that the swab would "free up" briefly about 2/3rds of the way down the barrel and than tighten up again for the last half inch or so.

I sent it back to the Australian S&W importer (Grycol) and S&W acknowledged that the barrel was faulty and replaced the barrel without any hassle at all (Grycol had loaned me a good used replacement barrel while S&W were considering it so I was very happy with their service and S&W's response).

Sadly the M41's are notorious for ejection failures and you'll read all sorts of advice on what ammo to use, fitting after market ejectors, lubricating the breech, lubricating rounds and so on. I've stuck with CCI standard velocity and have swapped out the ejector and I'd say that it is "reasonably" reliable. I still get an ejection failure every now and then but I've found that I can usually clear them quickly enough not to suffer in most competitions other than in Steel Challenge comp's.

The only thing that I haven't tried is slightly reaming and polishing the breach as some have suggested on various forums.

My local well respected gunsmith has also suggested that the breach length can be a tighter tolerance on these competition guns (ie shorter so that there's no open breach space between the ammunition case and the rifling) causing some spent round casings to bind in the rifling at the head of the breach and so causing the ejection failures....?

He has had experience and success reaming the breach very slightly further forward on other model pistols with a similar ejection failure issue and suggested doing it to the M41 - I'm a little hesitant to try it but am considering it.

Other than that - personally I really wish someone would come up with a direct mount for a red dot (specifically the Leupold Delta Point Pro) onto the gun using the top mount screw holes that are there rather than via an additional "Weigatinny" rail and then a quite high Leupold cross slot mount that takes the red dot quite high and makes it harder to "acquire".

Enjoy the gun mate, I really think they are worth the effort to get right - it's just a real bloody shame that S&W don't get them right before selling them.

 

[wproct]

I didn't respond initially after seeing the photos of the bore, as I have never seen anything like that in my 50 some years of shooting. When I said that I had looked at a couple of new model 41 pistols on display at Sportsman's warehouse and thought they looked nice, I never checked the bore as I would not have expected to discover such a condition.

As others have stated, the stiff safety and stiff trigger guard movement for take down are totally normal, but obviously the bore is not. For those who try to determine in what year of manufacture did the model 41 become suspect, that's not so easily done. My 2007 model has the dull blue finish but otherwise shoots as well as my older model 41 pistols from the 1980's did. Smith & Wesson should absolutely replace the barrel with a new one, and it would be nice if that could be done without returning the whole pistol, but I question whether they would do that or not.

I am very sorry that you are having to go through all of this. I will be interested in hearing how Smith & Wesson resolves this.

 

[Troystat]

That bore looks weird (in a bad way) I guess see how it shoots but a new barrel or having the existing barrel relined is a option. As far as function 41's seem to come in two flavors, finicky and no problem. I think the extractor is the most common reason for jams on these pistols not the barrels. I have a late 70's version that came with a 7.375 inch barrel and it is extremely reliable with any ammunition that I have tried in it. On a lark I bought a new 5.5 inch barrel and a used 5 inch field barrel and they all function fine even though they are all different ages. The other item that can cause problems is a bad recoil spring. Anyway there is a lot of info out there regarding making the 41's run well so good luck..

 

[rolandj]

I had a barrel problem on a new 41 similar to your problem. I had to send it back to S & W three times before they replaced the barrel. I posted concerning the problem in this forum on June 05 2021 and the barrel was not replaced until September 2021. I had to talk to a supervisor before S & W replaced it. You can look my post up and see the results if your interested. Yes you do have to return the entire pistol to have the barrel replaced. Good luck and I hope you get satisfaction from S & W.

 

[AreWeNotMen?]

OP UPDATE

My Model 41 is scheduled to arrive back home today from its 6-week visit with the S&W warranty shop. I am keeping my fingers crossed, but not holding mt breath! It has been a long road:

• first ordered it at the start of October
• delay in arriving at the FFL's local store
• go do paperwork
• wait the silly 10 days (CA law)
• get it home, look it over, find significant flaws
• send it back to S&W at the start of November

I'll let y'all know whether the beers I have when it arrives are in celebration, or to drown my misery.

 

[Old_Cop]

Here's hoping all is well.

 

[AreWeNotMen?]

the beer I'm having now is to drown my misery

Well thank you Old Cop...but unfortunately, the beer I'm having now is to drown my misery - at least it's a good beer! I've attached photos just taken following S&W's "Performed Service": "Repair Barrel" It doesn't look any different to me, and even if it shot "fine", there's no way a proper barrel wouldn't out-shoot it. And again, for the price, such poor quality is appalling and ridiculous.

I will email them tomorrow with a few questions and to express my dismay. Not gonna worry about it until after the holidays.

Regards to all.

 

[dsk]

I would have at least shot the gun first to see how it did. I've seen guns with lots of work shoot mediocre groups and I've seen guns with a bore that looks like 5 miles of dirt road shoot cloverleafs. It all depends on the gun.

Earlier this year I bought a Uberti S&W No.3 replica, and the inside of the bore had several cosmetic issues. I hemmed and hawed over returning it, but then when I shot it I discovered it actually grouped better than my other Ubertis. In the end I decided to just leave it as-is.

Not giving advice to the OP here however. Pride of ownership is a significant factor in owning a firearm, and it's hard to be giddy over a new gun with a bore that looks like the surface of the Moon under magnification. Call S&W back and let them know you're not happy with the repair work performed (assuming they even did anything) and go from there.

BTW S&W is no stranger to making poor-quality barrels. I bought one of the first M&P .22 Compacts to be sold, and the thing leaded terribly until I finally ran enough JB bore compound through it to polish up the inside of the barrel.

 

[Three Tees]

Looks like they just sent you your old barrel back after paying "lip service" to you and the "repair". You might want to punch some VERY small and indistinguishable (to anybody but you) tell-tale marks in a very obscure location, send the gun back and see if that marked barrel comes back to you...

 

[350mag]

Looks like it's badly leaded. That's likely due to a rough bore. Use a stainless steel brush and shoot it a lot with copper plated ammo to see if it polishes out. If not send it back for replacing. My new PC 41 has been working well with no issues.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AreWeNotMen?]

Looks like it's badly leaded. That's likely due to a rough bore. Use a stainless steel brush and shoot it a lot with copper plated ammo to see if it polishes out. If not send it back for replacing. My new PC 41 has been working well with no issues.

It is not leading; it left the factory that way - twice. And the "uglies" survived two deep cleanings by me. Those flaws are indeed in the steel.

I am emailing S&W to seek a replacement barrel or entirely new Model 41 (that has actually passed some meaningful quality control), and failing their agreement, them simply buying it back from me (I had them do so before on another flub of theirs). S&W is closed for the holidays, so I won't have any news until after the new year.

 

[AreWeNotMen?]

Earlier this year I bought a Uberti S&W No.3 replica, and the inside of the bore had several cosmetic issues. I hemmed and hawed over returning it, but then when I shot it I discovered it actually grouped better than my other Ubertis. In the end I decided to just leave it as-is.

Not giving advice to the OP here however. Pride of ownership is a significant factor in owning a firearm, and it's hard to be giddy over a new gun with a bore that looks like the surface of the Moon under magnification. Call S&W back and let them know you're not happy with the repair work performed (assuming they even did anything) and go from there.

BTW S&W is no stranger to making poor-quality barrels. I bought one of the first M&P .22 Compacts to be sold, and the thing leaded terribly until I finally ran enough JB bore compound through it to polish up the inside of the barrel.

Thanks for your comments; you are right about the "pride" part - in my head a Model 41 just should have such issues. I would have recurring nightmares if I kept this pistol "as is".

 

[rbmac52]

Nothing from S&W surprises me these days...

 

[pantannojack]

I had a m41 35 years ago when they could be had for 375$. I would not say that the one in your pics is worth that now in today's bucks.

 

[lrrifleman]

OP,

I am shocked at how S&W is handling this. It looks like steel chips were embedded in the barrel as the rifling was cut.

While relining the barrel is an option, it is NOT an option that I would consider for a brand new pistol! You paid good, hard earned money for a brand new, expensive pistol that is supposed to be a top end target pistol.

What I would consider doing is sharing your barrel photos with either Bartlein, Kreiger, Douglas, Hart or Wilson (well known manufacturers of match grade rifle barrels) and seek their professional opinion as to what you are seeing as damage, and present that opinion when you reach out to S&W CS ... stack the cards in your favor!

 

[ACORN]

If it was my m41, I'd get the barrel relined by a gunsmith who specializes in custom work for Bullseye pistol.
I recommend Alex Hamilton of Ten Ring Precision, Jerry Keefer, or David Sams.
These guys have great reputations and regularly do this work. For serious target shooting most m41s these days need this type of custom work. Typically costs about $200.

Huh?
Buy a pistol for $1400 and then ship it out to be relined for $200 and probably void any warranty?
I don't agree at all.

 

[HOUSTON RICK]

Smith and Wesson 22 handguns seem to be hit or miss. Most are faultless out of the box; others seem to enjoy trips to the "Mothership" for adjustment. All have been worth the effort once broken in. Sorry for the aggravation after such anticipation, also thanks for taking the quality hit for the rest of us. I have been very lucky with this Model 22S.