Good Grief S&W, Strike Three! (new Model 41 7") - see post #92
- Thread starter AreWeNotMen?
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sigp220.45
US Veteran
They probably shot it, saw that it grouped fine, and sent it back.
Have you fired it yourself?
Have you fired it yourself?
Anyone know the current method S&W uses to rifle the Model 41 barrels? Could the imperfections in the barrel be due to an error either during, or while using an incorrect ECM/EDM procedure?
I can't imagine an artifact in a barrel looking like that after broach cutting or hammer forging, etc. Looks to me like the imperfections are on the surface of the bore, and on the lands??
Please excuse my ignorance of the techniques used in the various and currently used rifling processes.
I can't imagine an artifact in a barrel looking like that after broach cutting or hammer forging, etc. Looks to me like the imperfections are on the surface of the bore, and on the lands??
Please excuse my ignorance of the techniques used in the various and currently used rifling processes.
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OP
AreWeNotMen?
Member
Ha! That made me laugh...y'all are welcome.
OP
AreWeNotMen?
Member
No - for two reasons:
everything you/they see is solely by their doing - factory new quality/condition. I think that's better positioning than, "yeah - I shot a brick through it...now replace _______"
And, I paid almost $1400 for something that looks like it has tiny petrified dino poop in the barrel - I ain't havin' it.
OP
AreWeNotMen?
Member
Disappointed
Your communication sounds reasonable and polite to me. I sincerely hope your concerns are addressed and resolved.
Based on my recent (last 10 years) experience with the company and "Customer Service", I have been baffled more times than I have been satisfied.
Apparently, communication skills are not accounted for when workers are appointed to positions where they actually have to speak with paying consumers.
Miscommunications, slow to no responses to reasonable questions, incomplete and incorrect explanations on repair forms, failure to recognize and successfully repair notable reported problems.....the list goes on and on.
Quality control has apparently been delegated to the remaining consumers. In recent years, I have purchased a NIB revolver that would not function, which is truly alarming from a safety standpoint. This clearly indicates that they are no longer routinely, without exception, inspecting, function testing and test firing every example of every model prior to shipping.
It's a shame, and disappointing, but based on my own "recent" experiences, and the experiences that others have reported here on the forum, I will no longer send any of my firearms to them....for any reason.
Your communication sounds reasonable and polite to me. I sincerely hope your concerns are addressed and resolved.
Based on my recent (last 10 years) experience with the company and "Customer Service", I have been baffled more times than I have been satisfied.
Apparently, communication skills are not accounted for when workers are appointed to positions where they actually have to speak with paying consumers.
Miscommunications, slow to no responses to reasonable questions, incomplete and incorrect explanations on repair forms, failure to recognize and successfully repair notable reported problems.....the list goes on and on.
Quality control has apparently been delegated to the remaining consumers. In recent years, I have purchased a NIB revolver that would not function, which is truly alarming from a safety standpoint. This clearly indicates that they are no longer routinely, without exception, inspecting, function testing and test firing every example of every model prior to shipping.
It's a shame, and disappointing, but based on my own "recent" experiences, and the experiences that others have reported here on the forum, I will no longer send any of my firearms to them....for any reason.
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garandsrus
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It looks like leading to me also. Perhaps it was a “loaner” gun to some writer or event where it got shot a lot. 22’s shouldn’t lead like that though.
GF
Member
Well... this is the first thread I found when looking for information on a new model 41!
I saw a video on YouTube by a poster named 22Plinkster and was impressed by his Performance Center model 41.
He mentioned some extraction problems with 36 grain ammo but nothing as in depth as this.
I'm not ordering a new pistol from S&W now.
I saw a video on YouTube by a poster named 22Plinkster and was impressed by his Performance Center model 41.
He mentioned some extraction problems with 36 grain ammo but nothing as in depth as this.
I'm not ordering a new pistol from S&W now.
Totally unacceptable quality control in the manufacturing process and irresponsible customer service policies. I have followed your tale of woe from the beginning, and as much as I was hoping that it would get resolved the first time around, I'm not in the least bit surprised at the outcome. From what I have seen both here and with people I know, it takes 3 trips back to the factory before they do more than "test fire" it, call it "repaired" and ship it back. If it were me, I would get on the horn with S&W customer service and not leave them alone until I spoke with someone who will take personal responsibility to get your issue fixed. Then I would ship it back to S&W "in care of" that person. It is a long, drawn out pita process but if your wheel doesn't squeak enough to be an annoyance, you'll get no grease.
On the bright side, 3 trips back to S&W is still faster (and cheaper) than one 19 1/2 month trip back to Colt.
On the bright side, 3 trips back to S&W is still faster (and cheaper) than one 19 1/2 month trip back to Colt.
TheHammer77
Member
I can't tell they did anything. What a shame.
-TheHammer
-TheHammer
PAgunman
Member
I am very disappointed in S & W overall. I will never buy another gun that they produce! Quality control is terrible. They don’t communicate with their customers. Takes too damn long to get your gun back from the factory—-6 to 8 weeks. I will buy CZ next time.
Well, I hope the barrel problem on the 41 gets straightened out soon. I have remarked (complained ) here about S&W barrels of a couple of new guns I’ve ordered, one of a 329PD and another of a 1911. The 329PD barrel APPEARS to be an ECM barrel. The 1911 barrel is likely broached. That is just my opinion, not confirmed by S&W or anyone else.
Both barrels, while they look terrible, shoot acceptably. The 1911 actually shoots well enough I haven’t replaced the barrel. The 329PD I think shoots as well as I can hold it, and with that beast, it’s hard to tell.
Since having the bad experiences with these two guns I’ve been keeping a close eye on the barrels of new S&Ws I can examine. I have yet to see another atrocity like the two I bought, but the rifling and crown work sure don’t look like they did 30 or more years ago.
) here about S&W barrels of a couple of new guns I’ve ordered, one of a 329PD and another of a 1911. The 329PD barrel APPEARS to be an ECM barrel. The 1911 barrel is likely broached. That is just my opinion, not confirmed by S&W or anyone else. Both barrels, while they look terrible, shoot acceptably. The 1911 actually shoots well enough I haven’t replaced the barrel. The 329PD I think shoots as well as I can hold it, and with that beast, it’s hard to tell.
Since having the bad experiences with these two guns I’ve been keeping a close eye on the barrels of new S&Ws I can examine. I have yet to see another atrocity like the two I bought, but the rifling and crown work sure don’t look like they did 30 or more years ago.
OP
AreWeNotMen?
Member
I'm back with an update...
Quick refresher - up in post #66, you'll see the email I sent S&W in December. They ultimately responded with, "we'll send you a shipping label" ignoring my request to talk with someone responsible. I replied with this (below) and sent it off mid-January.
"Okay, send me a label (thanks), but can a supervisor look at my work order/issue history and give me call now anyway? I know you will need the firearm for resolution (replace barrel, replace entire firearm, or refund), but I would like to talk with him/her about the defects, how it got through quality control, why it was sent back after "repair" with the same defects, and what the plan is for resolution. Please..."
I called about two weeks after it arrived at S&W to ask about status and to speak with the supervisor about what they were going to do...no call came.
So today, about 5 weeks after its been in their hands, I get an automated email saying FedEx will be delivering my pistol this coming Tuesday. Zero details on what they did, or didn't do. So I called S&W a few minutes ago and talked to a representative to ask her to look at my case and tell me what action was taken. She reports that the barrel was replaced with a new unit (my "option #1" in post #66 above).
While I am pleased with the news, I am tempering my enthusiasm until I see the barrel and shoot it. I will report back with results.
Quick refresher - up in post #66, you'll see the email I sent S&W in December. They ultimately responded with, "we'll send you a shipping label" ignoring my request to talk with someone responsible. I replied with this (below) and sent it off mid-January.
"Okay, send me a label (thanks), but can a supervisor look at my work order/issue history and give me call now anyway? I know you will need the firearm for resolution (replace barrel, replace entire firearm, or refund), but I would like to talk with him/her about the defects, how it got through quality control, why it was sent back after "repair" with the same defects, and what the plan is for resolution. Please..."
I called about two weeks after it arrived at S&W to ask about status and to speak with the supervisor about what they were going to do...no call came.
So today, about 5 weeks after its been in their hands, I get an automated email saying FedEx will be delivering my pistol this coming Tuesday. Zero details on what they did, or didn't do. So I called S&W a few minutes ago and talked to a representative to ask her to look at my case and tell me what action was taken. She reports that the barrel was replaced with a new unit (my "option #1" in post #66 above).
While I am pleased with the news, I am tempering my enthusiasm until I see the barrel and shoot it. I will report back with results.
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It's encouraging to hear that the barrel has been replaced. You have been more than patient. Wishing you the best on this one.
686-380
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When I first purchased my 686-6, back in 2013 I was dismayed to find it locked up with defensive loads. Sent it back better, not perfect. This is a off the shelf model, not PC.
After witnessing your story, I will never purchase a PC firearm. Of course, I'm really not in the market anymore...
After witnessing your story, I will never purchase a PC firearm. Of course, I'm really not in the market anymore...
I hope your new barrel is the way it should be. Put that borescope in again and post some pics please and let us know.
That said, I was cleaning my 1997 41 the other day that I bought used a couple of years ago, it is a gorgeous pristine gun looking as new. After cleaning I too saw an area with my naked eye that did not come clean. Used everything solvent wise, 100+ brush strokes, nada. Then I bought a borescope to take a closer look. Think your barrel is bad? What you see here is the aftermath of a very dull cutter and or chip load in the cutter. It is atrocious to say the least. Same with yours, that is poor rifling, not leading, not heat cracking, shoddy workmanship. The lands are not to bad but the grooves, holy smokes!
I then borescoped my 1965 41, 7 and 5" barrels as well as another 5.5" barrel I recently bought on GB. They were beautiful, shiny, smooth, perfect.
So I called S&W, they sent me a return label. I also talked to several respected smiths and they both said the same thing, poor tooling. I also found a bullseye smith 2 hours from me that specializes in relining that meets bullseye accuracy. So I debated, him for $350 and 8 weeks shop time (he's very busy) or send to S&W and roll the dice. Side note; I sent S&W a 29-2 a few years ago for cylinder lockup issues, paid $150, locked up again on the 3rd shot! So I educated myself and fixed it myself and it works perfect. Strike 1.
My decision? I sent it to the renowned smith for relining. Note, the gun did shoot pretty well, however, I think this needs to addressed.
Enjoy the pictures! Nothing like I've ever seen in my 66 years! And it's the entire barrel too.
Video link too:
Model 41_x264.mp4 - Google Drive
That said, I was cleaning my 1997 41 the other day that I bought used a couple of years ago, it is a gorgeous pristine gun looking as new. After cleaning I too saw an area with my naked eye that did not come clean. Used everything solvent wise, 100+ brush strokes, nada. Then I bought a borescope to take a closer look. Think your barrel is bad? What you see here is the aftermath of a very dull cutter and or chip load in the cutter. It is atrocious to say the least. Same with yours, that is poor rifling, not leading, not heat cracking, shoddy workmanship. The lands are not to bad but the grooves, holy smokes!
I then borescoped my 1965 41, 7 and 5" barrels as well as another 5.5" barrel I recently bought on GB. They were beautiful, shiny, smooth, perfect.
So I called S&W, they sent me a return label. I also talked to several respected smiths and they both said the same thing, poor tooling. I also found a bullseye smith 2 hours from me that specializes in relining that meets bullseye accuracy. So I debated, him for $350 and 8 weeks shop time (he's very busy) or send to S&W and roll the dice. Side note; I sent S&W a 29-2 a few years ago for cylinder lockup issues, paid $150, locked up again on the 3rd shot! So I educated myself and fixed it myself and it works perfect. Strike 1.
My decision? I sent it to the renowned smith for relining. Note, the gun did shoot pretty well, however, I think this needs to addressed.
Enjoy the pictures! Nothing like I've ever seen in my 66 years! And it's the entire barrel too.
Video link too:
Model 41_x264.mp4 - Google Drive
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My love for vintage S&W's is as strong as ever and those are the only S&W's I have bought since 1994 when I purchased my last factory new S&W - a M60-7. The mid 90's is when the decline started (IMO) It is very unfortunate that the head honcho's running the Company and the major share holders are so in denial, blind and deaf that they are literally going to be in command of a ship half under water as soon as customers finally wake up and understand that the Company is not the one that existed in their heyday and that what they are producing and selling is only because of their past reputation and longevity in the firearms business.
This is NOT bashing - it is simply stating what has happened to S&W (just not deniable any longer) and that customers are finally starting to see the light. Any manufacturer can have a bad day, week or month - but there has unfortunately been a steady decline over QC and ethics for quite a long time now.
I believe the tail that wags the dog at S&W has been their plastic guns which by all account is what they are able to produce best. They are the simplest products to produce because the gun is mostly produced by machines and computers. Old style traditional metal guns are becoming a thing of the past and every year that goes by there are less & less old timers and qualified Gunsmiths who understand their production methods and the type of customers who are attracted to them. Labor of love, work ethics, pride, = GONE!
I hope your problems are resolved and they finally send you an acceptable M41! Please keep us informed.
This is NOT bashing - it is simply stating what has happened to S&W (just not deniable any longer) and that customers are finally starting to see the light. Any manufacturer can have a bad day, week or month - but there has unfortunately been a steady decline over QC and ethics for quite a long time now.
I believe the tail that wags the dog at S&W has been their plastic guns which by all account is what they are able to produce best. They are the simplest products to produce because the gun is mostly produced by machines and computers. Old style traditional metal guns are becoming a thing of the past and every year that goes by there are less & less old timers and qualified Gunsmiths who understand their production methods and the type of customers who are attracted to them. Labor of love, work ethics, pride, = GONE!
I hope your problems are resolved and they finally send you an acceptable M41! Please keep us informed.
I don't know what to say about the barrel. That just doesn't look good at all. I will assume the obvious, that you thoroughly cleaned it and that isn't gunk.
As to the safety - mine is tiny and is also very stiff. But I don't care - it's a target pistol. It's never loaded unless I am firing it. I've never had a reason to engage the safety. I consider it to be a non-issue, it wouldn't bother me a bit if they had produced it with no safety at all.
As to the safety - mine is tiny and is also very stiff. But I don't care - it's a target pistol. It's never loaded unless I am firing it. I've never had a reason to engage the safety. I consider it to be a non-issue, it wouldn't bother me a bit if they had produced it with no safety at all.
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