Got a bone to pick with all the LEO's

[amd6547]

I recently bought a nickle Model 19-4 from a dealer who sells seized firearms...It is in beautifull shape, and I got it for $350.
However...
The authorities electropenciled a case number and "exh.2" on:
1. Left side of frame under cylinder
2. left side of barrel
3.bottom of barrel
4.underside of top strap
Yes, they engraved it in four places!

I cant complain too much...if it were perfect, I probably couldnt have afforded it...besides, I bought it to shoot, and having done so, find my model 19-4 to be an excellent shooter.
Here is the post I made when I got it, with pics:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1961-1980/135384-my-350-model-19-4-snub.html

 

[RWJ]

I agree

I think it stemmed from a time before serial numbers were place on guns.

Sgt. 207 is on the mark here.

Back when some guns were mfgr. w/o a serial # (some .22 and shotguns) is what allegedly prompted this practice, along with multiple guns from the same mfgr. with the same serial #, i.e., early S&W Models, even in the same calibers. The GCA of '68 pretty much eliminated that, but the possibility still exists that duplicate serial #s are out there - look at 1911s that have the same serial # from WW2 Colt and Ithica, I believe). Like others have mentioned, supervisors have to intervene. I threatened to charge one of my guys with Malicious Destruction on the spot if he marked it in a visible spot, if marking was necessary at all (rare). There is a sickening lack of knowledge about firearms stuff out there, like the time a Detective recovered some Nyclad Hollowpoints from a dirtball and put in the Roll Call book that the bad guys now had Teflon bullets in quantity! That required educating both he and his boss, and correcting the mis-information. These things are an institutional practice that will have a hard time dying.

JMHO

 

[george minze]

A little story on that very thing....While flying to Chicago for a subject wanted by the State of Missouri 1986 I was unfortunate enough to be a victim of a plane crash in the Dan Ryan Woods. Two Chicago Cops got me to Christ Hospital in 28 minutes. Long recovery 10 operations in critical care for a month...One year later thank GOD I went back to work...Presiding Judge flew to Chicago the evening f the crash to check on my condition and while there the CPD sent my shield, gun, and jacket, out to the hospital, they said if they logged it in it would have to be engraved with a (property) or evidence number number. The Judge talked to the Lt. and at that time the Sgt. that pulled me out of a tree., He told them are you kidding he will kill somebody if he lives. They said in my semi conscious state I had told one of the doctors, when he mentioned that they would cut off my brand new M.L. Leddy boots. I mumbled I'll kill the SOB that cuts off my boots...I of course remember none of this and had a hard time believing anything at the time.....Don't mess with a good gun, or a pair of handmade boots. Thanks Lt. Freyer, and Sgt Cornfield for my life and my pistol (no engraved numbers), and my hand made boots. Lt. Ken Freyer RIP, and Commander Bob Cornfield ret. You are the best.......

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

A little story on that very thing....While flying to Chicago for a subject wanted by the State of Missouri 1986 I was unfortunate enough to be a victim of a plane crash in the Dan Ryan Woods. Two Chicago Cops got me to Christ Hospital in 28 minutes. Long recovery 10 operations in critical care for a month...One year later thank GOD I went back to work...Presiding Judge flew to Chicago the evening f the crash to check on my condition and while there the CPD sent my shield, gun, and jacket, out to the hospital, they said if they logged it in it would have to be engraved with a (property) or evidence number number. The Judge talked to the Lt. and at that time the Sgt. that pulled me out of a tree., He told them are you kidding he will kill somebody if he lives. They said in my semi conscious state I had told one of the doctors, when he mentioned that they would cut off my brand new M.L. Leddy boots. I mumbled I'll kill the SOB that cuts off my boots...I of course remember none of this and had a hard time believing anything at the time.....Don't mess with a good gun, or a pair of handmade boots. Thanks Lt. Freyer, and Sgt Cornfield for my life and my pistol (no engraved numbers), and my hand made boots. Lt. Ken Freyer RIP, and Commander Bob Cornfield ret. You are the best.......

Great story-thanks for sharing-Judge sounds like a pretty stand up guy too

 

[Lt JL]

I also blame the lawyers. Prosecutors maybe a little less than defense attorneys, but I can always find a reason to blame practically everything on the lawyers.

 

[straightshooter1]

As a young police officer in 1968, I was taught to take off the grips and place my initials and the case number on the frame where it was inconspicuous but could be located if necessary to prove, in Court, that this was the gun I'd seized, recovered, etc.

I thought it no big deal to mark them there.

Then, I was involved in an "incident" where my supervisor had to take my gun, hold it for evidence, etc. When the aftermath was over and the gun returned, my nice Model 19 was all scratched up under the grips with names, case number, dates.

I was irritated, but grateful, at least, the marks weren't readily visible.

Fast forward past law school, becoming a prosecutor, teaching at the Academy, etc.

Our Florida law is pretty clear. The defense attorney MUST allege tampering with the evidence to challenge the chain of custody on MOST items. Guns, knives, hammers, bats, etc. fall under this case law.

That means the defense attorney must have some fact(s) that suggest tampering before he can start hammering the witness about whether this is really the gun, knife or....

So, we now teach that there is no need to mark the item IF it can be readily identified by the officer if challenged. A serial number, for example, recorded in the officer's report, the log where the item is placed in evidence, then taken out for testing, then returned to evidence and then brought to Court will suffice to win any challenge to the chain.

Hair, DNA, blood and other evidence still needs a chain, but the above illustration still will easily suffice in Florida.

Bob

 

[MaximumLawman]

Then, I was involved in an "incident" where my supervisor had to take my gun, hold it for evidence, etc. When the aftermath was over and the gun returned, my nice Model 19 was all scratched up under the grips with names, case number, dates.

I was irritated, but grateful, at least, the marks weren't readily visible.

Put it on Gunbroker with a copy of the reports and mugshots from your "incident". Some cop queer will pay 5 times what the gun is worth for the "back story"!

 

[george minze]

Great story-thanks for sharing-Judge sounds like a pretty stand up guy too

He was a real stand up guy. I had worked in his jurisdiction in 70s and came back to his district at his suggestion. After returning I was assigned on a fugitive case that, what else had to fly. The flight that ended in a tree wasn't my assignment but at last minute he had ask me to fill in. He always felt bad about it....It was the job, now 24 years later it is only a ,sound weird, but not all bad memories. Good people took care of me. made a lot of friends while in Chicago. Every day I was there, a copper from the 23rd district came to see me. they took my wife anywhere she had to go and the CPD Chaplains made daily visits. I was the guest speaker four years later at Freyer's retirement party over 500 CPD Officers were in attendance He was a good guy obviously.

 

[straightshooter1]

MaximumLawman-the photos weren't mugshots, and I sure don't have them, let alone want to see them again.

As for the old 19, I still have it (it's our "bathroom" gun and I think I'll hang on to it. You all do have a gun in your bathroom, don't you?).

I carried it the rest of my time as a LEO, shot and shot it, finally shot it fairly loose, and had one of the guys from the S&W Custom Shop, who came to my FFL's for big sales, redo it and replace the cylinder.

Bob

 

[MaximumLawman]

As for the old 19, I still have it (it's our "bathroom" gun and I think I'll hang on to it. (You all do have a gun in your bathroom, don't you?).

No need for weapons in the bathroom, I eat a lot of kapusta!

 

[jbcap]

That was a standard pratice that was used by most accredited agencies across the country. It is still in our manuals but have only seen it done a few times in recent years. Evidence tags attached to guns with twist wire or lead seal tags now. Never saw a reason to destroy a perfectly good gun that would be going back to the real owner.

 

[mm6mm6]

It's a stupid policy from several decades ago. It makes absolutely no sense when the gun itself has a unique serial number. I've never done it and never will!

 

[windrunner50]

Some agencies record the serial numbers,enter them,seal, and package the firearm properly. There is no need to engrave info onto the item to maintain the proper "Chain of Custody". The departments still engraving the firearms must be following old time guidelines from years prior......completely outdated............not to mention Wrong on the finer pieces arggggh!

 

[SgtLumpy]

Old thread CPR...

You're supposed to engrave something like your initials on firearms, knives, some other evidence. The FBI academy teaches that. Chain of evidence etc. But you're not supposed to do it on the slide of a 1911 with an ice pick. You're supposed to do it in a tiny, out of the way place where it's not visible unless you know where to look. Then when the opposing atty asks "How can you be absolutely certain this is the gun you took from my client that night?" You can ask to see the evidence, look in the "secret place" with a magnifier and say "Because, counselor, my initials are stamped into the inner ledge of the frame, under the grips, right here. You may use my magnifier to see it if you like"

They make a little stamper thing that puts three initials into a space the size of the 'D' in a penny date marking. It looks like a little screwdriver. You pick an out of the way place, set the punch end on the spot where you want the mark, then tap the other end with your handcuffs.


Sgt Lumpy

 

[feralmerril]

I have a old colt single action that is re serialised by the LAPD. I understand they dont do that any more.

 

[Fishslayer]

That was the unanimous acclaimation among the Judge, all the DA's and the defense attorneys present that day. Summary execution without delay

A safe assumption that this did not happen in Kalifornistan.

 

[hangnoose]

CRUSHING

Maybe the practice has since changed, but in NY many guns were crushed. Seems an awful waste of $ and fine guns to me. I often wondered if some of the guys doing the crushing had real nice collections, JK. It'd sure be a depressing job for me, a dream job for a gun hater I suppose. Do the guys that burn all the weed get a munchies stipend?

 

[tops]

Correct! Larry

 

[DR505]

Old thread CPR...

You're supposed to engrave something like your initials on firearms, knives, some other evidence. The FBI academy teaches that.

They haven't taught that in years.

 

[Fishslayer]

These things are an institutional practice that will have a hard time dying.

JMHO

I retired from the Navy in '94 and we still had to use black ink for everything.

"Because we've always done it that way."

Now they want blue ink because it makes it easier to spot copies. That should last until they come up with printers that can copy colors...


... oh wait...

 

[KKECK5]

With old timers, there are hard habits to break.. Years ago i worked with his guy, had been on the job since the late 1930's. One day he was writing a report with a pencil about 1/2 inch long. I handed him a new pencil and said, 'try this'.. he said....' i came on the job with this pencil, and intend to retire with it'. He retired in 1974. Musta been one fine pencil....

 

[Muley Gil]

I retired from the Navy in '94 and we still had to use black ink for everything.

"Because we've always done it that way."

Now they want blue ink because it makes it easier to spot copies. That should last until they come up with printers that can copy colors...


... oh wait...

I went to Kosovo as an international police officer in 2002. Took about 12 black pens with me. Found out that since this was a UN mission, they wanted everything signed in blue ink.

 

[moosedog]

There's no good reason for that.
There are numerous ways to tag the evidence and retain the chain of custody without ruining any property.

 

[rwsmith]

Jack Ruby's gun

I looked up Jack Ruby's gun the other day and everybody that handled it scratched their name and the date into it somewhere.

 

[pineappleshooter]

I retired from the Navy in '94 and we still had to use black ink for everything.

"Because we've always done it that way."

Now they want blue ink because it makes it easier to spot copies. That should last until they come up with printers that can copy colors...


... oh wait...

I was a Chief Yeoman back then and it was actually black OR blue/black ink. In 21 years as a Yeoman I never did find blue/black ink.

 

[charlie sherrill]

Not guilty of this one. We always used a sealed bag with pertinent info written on the outside. Sorta similar: I've got a dealer friend who recently came across a drop dead mint 4" nickel mod 25 in .45 Colt....except that the previous owner had used an electric pencil to engrave his driver license number under the cylinder on the left side and on the plate on the right side. It appears unfired. I offered to buy it (for a reasonable discount) but he decided to keep it as a shooter.

 

[Alk8944]

There is absolutely no more reason to mark up a gun than there is any other type of evidence. Every other type of evidentiary material can be adequately maintained through the chain of evidence by bagging, sealing and initialing the evidence bag. The theory that this practice started with the few firearms types which did not have serial numbers is a pile of ****.

Why would anyone think there was a special situation with firearms, which mostly have serial numbers, and any other type of property that does not? This is inane. Can you explain how you could identify the contents of a rape kit, a balloon of heroin, a baggy of marijuana? This is simply a way of destroying the guns value by permanently marking it as having by inference been used in a crime in some way.

In all my years I cannot recall ever marking a gun, piece of jewelry, or any other high value item unless it could be done where it didn;t affect the value. The backs or bottoms of appliances, TVs, or similar items would be written on.

 

[35Rem]

Donuts don't have bones!

 

[millisec]

Defacing is bad enough... what I would like to see is more states follow NC and pass more "save the gun" laws. No more arbitrary/mandatory destruction of buyback, seized etc. guns by LE and other governmental agencies. A lot of junk gets collected and destroyed but also a lot of valuable classics that should be kept in circulation. Not to mention there's not a whole lot of states and cities that don't need the revenue from auctioning them off like other seized property.