Got hold of a S&W marked U.S.N. !!?

[J.R.M.]

I've gotten hold of an older S&W I can't fine anything about. The grip is rather small for the rest of the gun. Barrel is 6", on the bottom of the grip it is marked "U.S.N.". Under that is an anchor and under that is ".38 D.A." and "No."
Serial # is 1643X is on the grip.
Left side of the barrel is "S&W 38 Mil". 4 side plate screws.

Does anyone know anything about this revolver ?

 

[murphydog]

This is one of a thousand .38 Military & Police model 1899 USN contract guns from 1900. It should have a number between 1-1000 on the bottom of the grip frame and 5001-6000 on the rear cylinder face and barrel flat above the ejector rod. It looks well-preserved for a gun of this age and era. Do you have a story behind it? Hope this is helpful.

 

[J.R.M.]

This is one of a thousand .38 Military & Police model 1899 USN contract guns from 1900. It should have a number between 1-1000 on the bottom of the grip frame and 5001-6000 on the rear cylinder face and barrel flat above the ejector rod. It looks well-preserved for a gun of this age and era. Do you have a story behind it? Hope this is helpful.

Well, it is helpful and it ain't !! The frame, barrel and cylinder have matching #'s. I just do not see the other numbers you are talking about. See the pics. On top of the barrel, the last date stamp is "Oct 4 98". On the inside of the right grip panel is written in pencil "16439", same as the frame, barrel and cylinder.

I'm lost on this one. Does this one have any value ? $300-400 ?

 

[ar33]

That Navy stamp is very neat, you piece wins the cool factor.

 

[DCWilson]

Well, the markings are puzzling. As was indicated, the Navy bought a thousand of these in 1900; the serial numbers ran from 5001 to 6000 if I am reading the sources correctly. These guns also had separate Navy sequence numbers stamped on the butt that ran from 1 - 1000. Your gun has the "No." stamp in the right place on the butt, but no Navy number. And the serial number is more than 10,000 too high to be part of that one known contract. Could this be a sample the company turned out in preparation for a second contract that never materialized?

If this is a true Navy contract gun and not a clever forgery (faked rarities do exist, unfortunately), it is collectible and of historical significance. I don't know what it would sell for, but it would be more than the $300-400 you mentioned.

The stocks look age-appropriate and could be original. You are missing a threaded knob that screwed into the end of the ejector rod.

I don't understand exactly where you found the five-digit serial number. Can you post a photo of that? Can you also get a photo of the rear surface of the cylinder? Is anything stamped on the flat underside of the barrel? What is the last patent date you can read on top of the barrel?

Interesting gun.

 

[J.R.M.]

Well, the markings are puzzling. As was indicated, the Navy bought a thousand of these in 1900; the serial numbers ran from 5001 to 6000 if I am reading the sources correctly. These guns also had separate Navy sequence numbers stamped on the butt that ran from 1 - 1000. Your gun has the "No." stamp in the right place on the butt, but no Navy number. And the serial number is more than 10,000 too high to be part of that one known contract. Could this be a sample the company turned out in preparation for a second contract that never materialized?

If this is a true Navy contract gun and not a clever forgery (faked rarities do exist, unfortunately), it is collectible and of historical significance. I don't know what it would sell for, but it would be more than the $300-400 you mentioned.

The stocks look age-appropriate and could be original. You are missing a threaded knob that screwed into the end of the ejector rod.

I don't understand exactly where you found the five-digit serial number. Can you post a photo of that? Can you also get a photo of the rear surface of the cylinder? Is anything stamped on the flat underside of the barrel? What is the last patent date you can read on top of the barrel?

Interesting gun.

The number 16439 is on the front grip strap, on the back of the cylinder and on the flat on the bottom of the barrel.

The last date on top of the barrel is Oct. 4 98. In front of that date is a long list of dates. Above that is the date July 1 84.

If you still need the pic of the back of the cylinder I'll shoot it tomorrow. The only thing on the back is the same serial number.
Thanks.

 

[Muley Gil]

"I don't understand exactly where you found the five-digit serial number."

David, look at the photo in post # 3. You can see the SN on the front grip strap.

 

[J.R.M.]

"I don't understand exactly where you found the five-digit serial number."

David, look at the photo in post # 3. You can see the SN on the front grip strap.

Sorry guys, I had a problem with the first pic of the front strap. This one is better.
Thanks.

 

[DCWilson]

Thank you. No need for the back of cylinder photo if the number is the same.

Gil, you're right. I just didn't look far enough into the shadows to see that something was stamped there.

I would spend the $50 to letter this gun, and specifically ask if it was part of a serial-number range that was produced under a Navy contract.

I like that gun a lot. That is a nice piece of history, and it seems to open a window on an undocumented (or least not widely known ) production run for the US military.

Or possibly it was just a left over Navy frame later adapted for commercial production on a waste-not, want-not basis.

 

[jproffitt]

That's a really cool gun. Wish I could find something like that.

 

[deadin]

Where is mikepriwer when you need him??

 

[murphydog]

Or possibly it was just a left over Navy frame later adapted for commercial production on a waste-not, want-not basis.

My guess exactly - that would explain the lack of the Navy SN, under the "No." on the bottom of the grip frame. It doesn't appear a number was ever stamped/rollmarked there.

 

[finaltoy]

You could go to S&W website and then find customer service or something like that.
Then search for dept. that will research for that gun using the serial number.
It costs $50.00 but worth every penny with an old one like you have.
I did mine and discovered it to be a 1905 model sold to hardware company in Chicago.
Good luck
Bill H.

 

[J.R.M.]

You guys are something else. Thanks a ton. I don't know if the wife will OK $50 to find out. Fixed incomes in gun collecting are a killer for those of you who aren't there yet !!
Many thanks.

 

[Shooting Padre]

I'm sorry that I don't remember anything about the serial numbers etc, but I do remember seeing a few of these in our Air Police armory in the sixties. We were issued the model 15 as a side arm, but a few Navy .38s found their way into our inventory. I now have both a model 10 and 15.

 

[ar33]

I bet 50 members here would chip in a buck to letter this piece. I'm intrigued by the history and Navy stamp. Dumb question of the day- Is that gun .38 special?

 

[gkitch]

S&W Detectives

JRM showed me the gun yeaterday. It is not marked for 38 Special but we could put an empty 38 Special case in the cylinder. Its a nice gun and we are hoping that the ejector head can be located. It is in sound condition and we sure hope these mysteries about it will eventually make sense.
It has been my week for S&W mysteries, that's for sure.

 

[murphydog]

The ".38 Mil" is the .38 Long Colt, the standard service revolver of the time. It is a short .38 Special like the Special is a short .357. Since the 1899 was made in .38 Special primarily, perhaps they did not make cylinders with shorter chambers specifically for the military contract? Or since this was a later gun, they put a .38 Special cylinder on it.

Mike Priwer here on the Forum has (or had) replacement ejector rod heads.

 

[Texas Star]

I'm sorry that I don't remember anything about the serial numbers etc, but I do remember seeing a few of these in our Air Police armory in the sixties. We were issued the model 15 as a side arm, but a few Navy .38s found their way into our inventory. I now have both a model 10 and 15.

Hello. I was also a USAF cop in that time frame and carried the ex-Navy .38's. But they were WW II Victory Models, with the usual front cylinder lock under the barrel, which arrived in 1902.

The gun under discussion was made between 1899-1902, and is not the sort that you recall. The Navy bought quite a few of these later M&P guns through the years, as did the Coast Guard. Many were issued to aviators in WW II and after.

The M-15 Combat Masterpiece was official USAF standard from about 1962-1985, but was often supplemented during the 1960's by transfers of Victory Models and some Colt Official Police and Commando .38's from Naval stores. Some of those did indeed bear U.S. Navy markings on the topstraps. At some bases, the .45 auto remained available for years after the .38 replacement was adopted. Currently, the USAF issues the Beretta M-9, but some bases have bought Glock 19's and other items with unit funds.

I hope this is of interest, and clears up any confusion.

 

[Goony]

That is a nice piece of history, and it seems to open a window on an undocumented (or least not widely known ) production run for the US military.

Or possibly it was just a left over Navy frame later adapted for commercial production on a waste-not, want-not basis.

David, I think you've likely hit it on the head with the latter scenario. But that gun absolutely screams for a letter to be certain. Another case here of "just when you think you've seen everything...."