grouping all over

[shaqs77]

Hi

this is my current set up

m&p performance
magpul afg foregrip
wulf fireball optic
a tech supressor.

i usually shoot cci tactical and my grouping is quite tight at 25 yards indoor after adjusting the scope. after every shoot i field strip and put a few jags through it before it put it away til next time. i tried some aguila and apart from the greasy 'feel' of the round, the grouping stays quite tight again, approximatelt 2".

my local range was out of the tacticals so i bought some cci minimags. the groupings were horrendous. apart from the round nothing has changed. had to adjust the scope again.

what would cause this?


any help and advice is appreciated.

 

[Sgt. Buzzard]

All rifles have their favorite foods. You go back to Tactical or try CCI-SV. very easy to find.

 

[Pisgah]

You tried Ammo A, then tried Ammo B, and they didn't shoot to the same point of aim.

So -- what is your question? Seems the main one has already been answered -- different loads are different.

 

[shaqs77]

i expected different loads to have a slight variation but this was excessive in my opinion.

only been shooting over a year so not that experienced compared to alot of the members here. hence why i thought id ask to see if that was normal.

 

[Kp321]

In addition to the ammo change, there are a few other things to look at. Is the barrel nut tight? Some come from the factory gorilla tight while others are barely finger tight.
Is the suppressor tight and clean? Rimfires foul suppressors very quickly.

 

[Brian Parrish]

More info needed

This question goes under the category of diagnosis from target data, so we would need more information to really help you. But from long years of experience maybe the family here can steer you in a way that will save some time.

I understood that while you were shooting 22LR at 25 yards from a carbine, the Tactical brand and the Aguila brand rounds performed consistently, similarly, and met your expectations. The CCI Minimags did not, so people are just going to tell you that your gun does not "like" those rounds or maybe you got a box from a bad batch.

My experience with minimags has always been positive, but I don't know how consistent their quality control is. Hopefully, someone with this same weapon could go to the range with some minimags and report their results.

You said "grouping after adjusting the scope". There are two different things accuracy and precision. Precision is how tight the group is. Accuracy is how close that group is to the point of aim. It might help to know what you really mean. If you have three brands of ammo and they all shoot precise groups, but centered on different places on the target, then there is no problem. This is normal. Adjust your scope for accuracy of the round you prefer.

 

[shaqs77]

In addition to the ammo change, there are a few other things to look at. Is the barrel nut tight? Some come from the factory gorilla tight while others are barely finger tight.
Is the suppressor tight and clean? Rimfires foul suppressors very quickly.

the suppressor was tight and had only 200 rounds through it since its last clean.


You said "grouping after adjusting the scope". There are two different things accuracy and precision. Precision is how tight the group is. Accuracy is how close that group is to the point of aim. It might help to know what you really mean. If you have three brands of ammo and they all shoot precise groups, but centered on different places on the target, then there is no problem. This is normal. Adjust your scope for accuracy of the round you prefer.

precision was out, it looked like it was going all over. i was aiming for bullseye but it went about 2 inches to the right so i dialed that in. so that grouping moved. in hindsight i should have taken a pic of the target.

 

[Brian Parrish]

Precision was out, it looked like it was going all over. i was aiming for bullseye but it went about 2 inches to the right so i dialed that in. so that grouping moved. in hindsight i should have taken a pic of the target.

I see. How many shots per group and what was the center to center size of the group with the minimags?

If you can shoot a 10-shot 2 inch group at 25 yards with any type of factory ammo, there is nothing wrong with your equipment. If another brand shoots a four inch group, all other things being equal including barrel temp and ambient temp, it's the ammo. You should also see a huge spread in velocities as well.

 

[rct269]

Right up front I must tell you I know nothing about these rifles, nor any of the bells and whistles attached thereto.

That said, I would consider a 2" group at 25 yards to be sub par for a handgun----those I know about. Now that I think about it, a 2" group at 50 yards would be so-so.

My most memorable group is 4" from both a Ruger Blackhawk (6 1/2" barrel) and a S&W (8 3/8" barrel)---both in .44 Magnum (using reduced load handloads/seated/ knees drawn up/two hand hold/resting on the knees) at 100 yards. Another satisfying result was achieved with a Ruger Old Army (cap and ball revolver), loaded with 20 grains of fff black powder, a lubed wad, 20 grains of corn meal (so that the round ball bullet seated flush with the end of the cylinder chamber, using the same shooter set-up. That group was 6 shots at 25 yards making for one ragged hole covered by a quarter. What's that---an inch thereabouts?

Like I said, I don't know beans from apple butter about your equipment, but it seems like you have some work to do.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Brian Parrish]

Assumptions

Right up front I must tell you I know nothing about these rifles, nor any of the bells and whistles attached thereto.

That said, I would consider a 2" group at 25 yards to be sub par for a handgun----those I know about. Now that I think about it, a 2" group at 50 yards would be so-so...
Ralph Tremaine

Shaqs, you are talking about a comparison. Ralph assumes you are an experienced shooter using a rest or bag from a bench, right? But your original question is sound. A 2" group you achieved from each of 2 different brands of ammo but the third brand of ammo all other things being equal, is all over the target. Why is this?

Ralph just told you that 2 inches at 25 yards is not good enough and there is work to do. A flawless perfect shooting technique only allows you to shoot to the practical limit of the equipment you are using. Just keep at it and let us know how you resolve this. And we like pictures!

 

[Imissedagain]

25 yds with a rifle and scope.... one ragged hole.
25 yds with a handgun and a scope.... one ragged hole.
Some can do that with irons.
Gear must be solid, and lotsa practice.

Shoot one, put the next two thru that hole.
Shoot to another POA and do the same.
Cloverleafs are acceptable.

 

[BE Mike]

Standard velocity ammo is usually more accurate than high velocity. Switching copper washed and lubed lead bullets can lead to deposits in the barrel, which can lead to less accuracy.

 

[SunnySky]

A few months ago I took my M&P 15-22 to range and shot 4 brands of ammo to compare their grouping. Here are the results of 10 shot groupings:

At 25 yards, CCI SV 1.0", Aguila SE 0.6", Federal AM 1.4", Armscor 1.0".

At 100 yards, CCI SV 3.1", Aguila SE 4.3", Federal AM 5.1", Armscor 10.5".

 

[Brian Parrish]

A few months ago I took my M&P 15-22 to range and shot 4 brands of ammo to compare their grouping. Here are the results of 10 shot groupings:

At 25 yards, CCI SV 1.0", Aguila SE 0.6", Federal AM 1.4", Armscor 1.0".

At 100 yards, CCI SV 3.1", Aguila SE 4.3", Federal AM 5.1", Armscor 10.5".

Can you tell Shaq how you account for such a disparity with the Armscor at 100 yards? If the CCI SV for you was the best of all, what I would expect, why was it so poor for him?

Thanks for helping!
BrianD

 

[rockquarry]

I see. How many shots per group and what was the center to center size of the group with the minimags?

If you can shoot a 10-shot 2 inch group at 25 yards with any type of factory ammo, there is nothing wrong with your equipment. If another brand shoots a four inch group, all other things being equal including barrel temp and ambient temp, it's the ammo. You should also see a huge spread in velocities as well.

Unless these guns just don't shoot well at all, you should be able to do much better than 2" groups at 25 yards with good ammo and open sights. 2" groups at 25 yards would make most believe there is something wrong with the gun and/or ammo. Don't concern yourself with velocity spreads if you're getting tight groups. Group size tells you far more than ES and SD numbers.

 

[SunnySky]

Can you tell Shaq how you account for such a disparity with the Armscor at 100 yards? If the CCI SV for you was the best of all, what I would expect, why was it so poor for him?

Thanks for helping!
BrianD

The grouping size is the ES including all 10-shots. Armscor had a flyer at 100 yards. Here are the pictures.
Is Armscor ammo good?

 

[BE Mike]

How does it shoot without the silencer? Did you use anything, like a wave washer, when attaching the silencer or is it directly threaded on the barrel?