Gun lights

[Cal44]

I'm far from an expert on home defense, so bear with me.

I've seen discussions of mounting a light on a gun.

But if you do mount a light on a handgun, and confront a bad guy who also has a gun you give him a perfect target to shoot at and hit you right in the face. Not good.

If, however, you master shooting with one hand you can hold the light away from your body with the other hand.

With one of my 1400 lumen lights in his face the bg will not see anything but the light. And if he shoots at the light will probably miss, or worst case hit your hand.

Isn't this a better way to use a light?

Dave

 

[macski222]

In my experience training with law enforcement, in order to not make yourself a target, you hit the person in question with a beam of light, and change your location once you shut your light off. Flashlight under shooting hand, wrist to wrist, top hand handles the gun, bottom hand thumb facing you, with the flashlight pointed away. This adds some stability when shooting. Apply downward pressure with shooting hand, and upward pressure with flashlight hand.

Keeping your flashlight on makes you a nice target. If you can manage to do the same with a gun mounted light, go for it.

I've always just used them separately, rather than mounting one.

 

[TAROMAN]

Agree, its called the harries technique.
My bedside companions:

 

[JeffShrugged]

I read an article where Massad Ayoob was discussing this, and his opinion was that a gun light is not always a good idea. His rationale was that if you have a gun light, you are already pointing your gun at whatever you are shining your light on. This increases the chance of firing on something just by being startled in the dark, like a child or a family pet. His recommendation was a separate light and gun. Here it is.

 

[wheelyfun66]

I'm ex-infantry, so completely understand the whole "don't give your position away" thing....

But, for home defense, I love mounted lights.

If you've never experienced the beam of overwhelming light that modern defensive lights put out....It is SUPER strong, and disabling to anyone on the wrong end of it.

Most lights have the ability to be turned on/off by thumb or finger pressure, while your hands maintain a firing grip, so you are not committed to "full on" lighting of an area.

To grab a weapon AND flashlight, while disoriented from sleep, leaves more potential for operator error.

Perhaps those with even more knowledge than I (Law Enforcement forum members) can add even more benefits of a weapon-mounted light?

 

[sipowicz]

I'll take it on the gun. Holding a light away from your body so as not to light you up is a fallacy...you will still be lit up by the spill...the only difference is that you are less likely to blind the other guy since it won't be directly in his face...also, aiming a gun in one hand while holding a light away from from your body in the other is akin to patting your head and rubbing your stomach at the same time.

I have run many a deputy through flashlight quals in our mobile range over the years and most score very poorly with the light in the other hand...whether it be with a two hand hold on the gun with light between fingers or with crossed wrists...that is why the dept. decided to put the light on the gun...

 

[fdw]

I bought a cheap light just to see if I liked it mounted to my M&P 9 FS and never got used to it. I just didn't like the way it slightly changed the balance of the gun.

Personally I keep a flashlight on my nightstand. I'll also mention if I hear a noise I'm not leaving the bedroom looking for trouble and if someone enters the hall I have enough ambient light to make a safe shot.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I have the Glock light/laser on my 17 in my bedside gun locker. Better to have a light and not need it than to need it and not have it. I agree that handling one device is easier than two. Just because it's on the rail doesn't mean you light it up. As for being illuminate by the spill of a handheld light, just make sure the light is held a little ahead of/in front of your body, and the spill will conceal, not reveal you . . .

 

[5wheelin']

I've always had the light / handgun separated from each other. Now that my only handgun is a revolver at the moment, I've (had) to keep up the practice. Doubt I would have gotten a gun mounted light anyway.

Why? Honestly I hadn't put much thought into it. I just like how I can use the flashlight without pointing a firearm at whatever I'm lighting up too, in a non-situation every day, oh look I need a flashlight, scenario. That being said I can see how I probably shouldn't be using my bedside light for anything else besides self defense so as to not risk the "oh **** the batteries are dead" moment. I also just use a maglight. Nothing particularly powerful. And it's huge. I keep thinking about getting one of those little, high lumen ones people keep posting pictures of.

 

[MichiganScott]

I have both a weapon mounted light and a LED flashlight in my bedside table. The flashlight is for identification and the weapons light is for illumination.

Dead batteries happen. Two is one and one is none.

I suggest that anyone that wants to use a high power flashlight or weapons light try it in the middle of the night when you have full night vision. I find anything much over 165 lumens to be painful when used inside a normal sized room.A 600+ lumen light would blind me almost as much as an intruder.

 

[Doug M.]

Go read what Sip said. Read it again and again. Pay someone to beat it into your head. The people who study and train a lot are pretty much universal on the wisdom of a weapon mounted light. It is not an administrative light - a flashlight is for such purposes. But when it comes to taking action with regard to offenders, weapon mounted lights are the winner. My carbine and shotgun have them, for good reasons.

My pistols do not, because my agency did not allow them and so I never had the chance to train with one. I have trained with handheld techniques, and while these are not near as good as a WML ("A" answer: X300U, DG switch), a WML without good training on use is not as good as a handheld. The neck index seems to be the best of the techniques to which I have been exposed.

Back spill showing you? Yup. Once you have to address the problem, the offender will know you are there anyway, and the certainty of target ID is worth it.

 

[g8rb8]

I'll take it on the gun...... aiming a gun in one hand while holding a light away from from your body in the other is akin to patting your head and rubbing your stomach at the same time.

I have run many a deputy through flashlight quals .....that is why the dept. decided to put the light on the gun...

Go read what Sip said. Read it again and again. Pay someone to beat it into your head. The people who study and train a lot are pretty much universal on the wisdom of a weapon mounted light ......when it comes to taking action with regard to offenders, weapon mounted lights are the winner..... handheld techniques, and while these are not near as good as a WML ("A" answer: X300U, DG switch), a WML without good training on use is not as good as a handheld.....

Sipowicz and Doug M.,
Thanks for the information and opinions from experienced LEO's. Do you have specific brand or model recommendations for weapon mounted lights for long guns with rails and handguns with rails?

Thanks,

John
Scoundrel and Ne'er-Do-Well in Training

 

[Doug M.]

"Buy once, cry once." That means do the research and buy quality. On my carbine, the light is a Surefire P3X, EAG specifications (clicky switch, single power only, which AFAIK is available only from Bravo Company), mounted in a VTAC light mount (came with the carbine as part of the package and works great for me). Some of the mounting issues you have to consider relate to what will work for YOUR use and YOUR body. The P3X was not available when I set up the rifle, and in fact I don't think the P2X was. I replaced a G2 with the P2, then upgraded to the P3 recently. I have it set up for my off-side thumb to press the switch, right out by the VFG. (FWIW, on my M590 shotgun, I just bought and installed the new Surefire forend with the 200/600 lumen option. I leave it on 600. That is the only real difference in how the shotgun and carbine are set up; I have a VTAC sling on both, along with an RDS set so that the dot is bright enough to work with the light and not obnoxious without the light. The only drawback to the shotgun is that I went with the speedfeed stock which seems to be too long for a decent LOP.)

The vast majority of the recommendations I have seen from people I respect WRT pistol lights are the U300X and DG switch. Because of the nature of the switch, you do have to train a bit to avoid the possibility of a rule 3 violation. Failure to do so can mean an ND, which is never good. Since I have not had the chance to do such training, I stick with the handheld and neck index because it is the best working least likely to result in an error method for me at this time. I think Sip also has a Surefire 300 WML, but that memory is not all that clear.

There is a string in the Lounge regarding flashlight purchases where I linked to a youTube video with 2 demonstrations of a P2X on a carbine, one each square range and shoothouse. The difference made in IDing targets under stress is important. I was discussing duty gear with a friend yesterday, and said that a large part of the time one could work in cutoffs, a T shirt and sandals, but that "when it matters, it really matters". Since you can't make an appointment for an emergency, that's an issue to consider.

HTH, YMMV, etc.

 

[Donn]

I read an article where Massad Ayoob was discussing this, and his opinion was that a gun light is not always a good idea. His rationale was that if you have a gun light, you are already pointing your gun at whatever you are shining your light on. This increases the chance of firing on something just by being startled in the dark, like a child or a family pet. His recommendation was a separate light and gun. Here it is.

I agree. Your muzzle's pointed at whatever you're illuminating. That, and like lasers, lights work both ways.

 

[Doug M.]

g8rb8: One caveat of which I thought later. If the long gun is almost always for use inside, you might find a G2X to be sufficient. It's still 200 lumens, I think, and for a typical inside the house use, I think that will provide enough light to see all that there is to see. It is also a LOT cheaper. In fact, I might actually change my shotgun light to 200 and test it some night.

 

[g8rb8]

Doug M.,
Thank you for the thoughtful and detailed answers. Much appreciated.

John
Scoundrel and Ne'er-Do-Well in Training

 

[LVSteve]

I have a TLR-3 light & laser combo on my bedside gun. Anybody in my house I light up with that lot should understand that things are going badly for them and may get much worse. I have neither free roaming pets nor children, so anything that is moving after curfew is going to be hostile.

 

[sipowicz]

Sipowicz and Doug M.,
Thanks for the information and opinions from experienced LEO's. Do you have specific brand or model recommendations for weapon mounted lights for long guns with rails and handguns with rails?

Thanks,

John
Scoundrel and Ne'er-Do-Well in Training

Stick with Surefire or Streamlight...there might be some others that are also good but these two are the most common and have a great track record. The surefire on my M&P is awesome and probably the only choice I would make for a duty gun. But for two thirds the price, the TLR-3 is fine for a nightstand gun. Just buy quality....rail lights take an amazing amount of punishment from the recoil.

 

[Old cop]

I'm clearly out voted here and realize that my training is very dated (retired in '97) but during my time the gun mounted light had not been invented yet. We trained using the gun (revolver) in your strong hand and the light held away from the body in your other hand. I still have a problem w/the idea of standing directly behind the light, but things have changed quite a bit.

 

[sub-moa]

WADR…a bit more dated than you might realize Brother . Laser Products/Surefire was selling compact pistol lights in the mid-80's. In fact, I've still got the same WML on a P226 I mounted in early '87. I used it for my final 13 years until retiring it…and me , in early '00. FWIW, it started life with a relatively small but bright lamp assembly and single 123 battery which progressively evolved into a much brighter lamp assembly and a pair of 123 batteries...all in the same body/switch. I've got one for the BHP as well .

And, while the wide held “FBI Technique”…using a hardware store flashlight , was common in the ‘60s and into the ‘70s, the advent of the Kel-Lite “Police Flashlight”…with much brighter output, momentary switch and solid construction, enabled other techniques involving joining the weapon/light by hand to be developed. The much smaller end cap equipped “Tactical Flashlights” followed the WMLs mentioned above shortly thereafter which opened-up the other weapon/light joined techniques we’ve used for a couple decades + now.

Working behind a brilliantly bright flashlight beam…mechanically co-witnessed to one’s weapon, is substantially different than working from an FBI crouch with a dim hardware store flashlight held at arm’s length while at the same time attempting to align the weapon with the threat. If on its face that’s not enough of a difference for some, I’d suggest the some try the juggler technique…while moving. No WML readily available? The Chapman/Ayoob, Harries, SureFire/Syringe/Roger’s and Neck Index hand-held co-witness techniques are all superior to the nostalgic alternative…