gun quality these days!

[kpla51]

So I just had my LGS order two no lock 442s for me and they came in today. one looked good but the others barrel was slightly mis aligned, there is bad machining on the cylinder housing and there was some finish missing where the barrel meets the frame. I picked it up anyways since we already had a pre set trade deal but will probably have to send off the bad one to S&W.

Lately I have seen these problems across the board with all manufactures which is disheartening. What do you all think caused such a decline in QC? maybe I just have bad luck but below I listed a few of the guns Ive had with issues.

P a $1500 colt 1911 that came with patchy finish on the slide, new colt king cobra that had the ejector rod get stuck in the crane while ejecting casings, a ruger lcr that wouldn't index when closing the cylinder and a m&p 340pd that had a lopsided cylinder.

 

[MetalMan]

The firearms industry, and many others in the manufacturing sector, have lost most of their skilled craftsmen over the years. These are the folks that took the time to hand-fit components and took pride in their work. While the final products were not always "perfect", these skilled artisans worked 40-hour weeks for a single company most of their careers and, upon retirement, were rewarded with a gold watch and a pension. I tend to refer to this as "paternalism"; companies taking care of their employees and being rewarded by loyalty and a job-well-done.

Craftsmen such as these don't come cheap and, with the focus on increased profitability, manufacturers were driven to automation and became focused on capacity utilization - getting the highest number of finished units out per hour/day/week/month. Also, machines don't take coffee or lunch breaks, call in sick, go out on strike or take vacation days. Humans are expendable and replaceable. They have become slaves to their tireless mechanical counterparts. Forty-hour weeks have, out of necessity, stretched to 50 or 60+. Pensions have been replaced by 401(k)'s and loyalty has gone down the drain as workers chase any opportunity to find their pot of gold at the end of the next rainbow.

Paternalism has gone the way of the the horse-drawn wagon and, with it, so has loyalty and pride in one's work been replaced by companies' bottom line performance.

We all are a bit to blame for this as companies are driven by their stockholders ("Us") to deliver ever-increasing quarterly profits.

I've been working now for close to 50 years and have seen this transition firsthand. Kids today would rather work in an air-conditioned McDonalds for $10 rather than a hot and dirty basic manufacturing job at more than double the hourly rate. Many millennials have no clue what it takes to earn an honest day's wage.

I don't presume to have the answers but I guess that you get a sense of why I agree that QC has gone to he** in a hanging basket.

Rant over.

 

[Univibe]

IN other words, when capitalists treat workers as machines, they get the same level of loyalty and pride from workers as they get from machines.

 

[75Vette]

The firearms industry, and many others in the manufacturing sector, have lost most of their skilled craftsmen over the years. These are the folks that took the time to hand-fit components and took pride in their work. While the final products were not always "perfect", these skilled artisans worked 40-hour weeks for a single company most of their careers and, upon retirement, were rewarded with a gold watch and a pension. I tend to refer to this as "paternalism"; companies taking care of their employees and being rewarded by loyalty and a job-well-done.

Craftsmen such as these don't come cheap and, with the focus on increased profitability, manufacturers were driven to automation and became focused on capacity utilization - getting the highest number of finished units out per hour/day/week/month. Also, machines don't take coffee or lunch breaks, call in sick, go out on strike or take vacation days. Humans are expendable and replaceable. They have become slaves to their tireless mechanical counterparts. Forty-hour weeks have, out of necessity, stretched to 50 or 60+. Pensions have been replaced by 401(k)'s and loyalty has gone down the drain as workers chase any opportunity to find their pot of gold at the end of the next rainbow.

Paternalism has gone the way of the the horse-drawn wagon and, with it, so has loyalty and pride in one's work been replaced by companies' bottom line performance.

We all are a bit to blame for this as companies are driven by their stockholders ("Us") to deliver ever-increasing quarterly profits.

I've been working now for close to 50 years and have seen this transition firsthand. Kids today would rather work in an air-conditioned McDonalds for $10 rather than a hot and dirty basic manufacturing job at more than double the hourly rate. Many millennials have no clue what it takes to earn an honest day's wage.

I don't presume to have the answers but I guess that you get a sense of why I agree that QC has gone to he** in a hanging basket.

Rant over.

Sad but true. Couldn't have said it better myself.


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[STCM(SW)]

So the best day's are over for skilled workman.
A sad day for the world at large I think.....

 

[kpla51]

its a shame but it seems like every gun manufacture is headed this direction. Honestly I think glock is the most consistent with their line of pistols, I've never seen one that had bad machining or finish issues

 

[MetalMan]

So the best day's are over for skilled workman.
A sad day for the world at large I think.....

Sad but true.....

When was the last time that many of us bought something intended to last "forever"?

We've become a "disposable" society where simple fitness for the immediate use at hand has replaced durability and an appreciation of value for the dollar paid.

 

[mauser9]

Seems like a definite decline in overall fit and finish on some makes and models. Have noticed many gun have more of a matte finish instead of the shiny bluing or satin finish from years back. At my sportsman club seems to be more rifles and pistols with polymer than the old traditional walnut these days. Seems most manufacturers have taken the cost saving route these days in many cases to stay in business though. Have noticed guns I bought 40 years back have more than tripled in price if the model is still offered today. Many guns like my old Rem.700 which I considered run of the mill way back then now look more like a custom job when compared to some rifles today. But to be fair I realize the cost of black -claro- english walnut is very high these days. Just my thoughts.

 

[Ackley1952]

We still make quality guns they just as always cost more.

 

[oneounceload]

The firearms industry, and many others in the manufacturing sector, have lost most of their skilled craftsmen over the years. These are the folks that took the time to hand-fit components and took pride in their work. While the final products were not always "perfect", these skilled artisans worked 40-hour weeks for a single company most of their careers and, upon retirement, were rewarded with a gold watch and a pension. I tend to refer to this as "paternalism"; companies taking care of their employees and being rewarded by loyalty and a job-well-done.

Craftsmen such as these don't come cheap and, with the focus on increased profitability, manufacturers were driven to automation and became focused on capacity utilization - getting the highest number of finished units out per hour/day/week/month. Also, machines don't take coffee or lunch breaks, call in sick, go out on strike or take vacation days. Humans are expendable and replaceable. They have become slaves to their tireless mechanical counterparts. Forty-hour weeks have, out of necessity, stretched to 50 or 60+. Pensions have been replaced by 401(k)'s and loyalty has gone down the drain as workers chase any opportunity to find their pot of gold at the end of the next rainbow.

Paternalism has gone the way of the the horse-drawn wagon and, with it, so has loyalty and pride in one's work been replaced by companies' bottom line performance.

We all are a bit to blame for this as companies are driven by their stockholders ("Us") to deliver ever-increasing quarterly profits.

I've been working now for close to 50 years and have seen this transition firsthand. Kids today would rather work in an air-conditioned McDonalds for $10 rather than a hot and dirty basic manufacturing job at more than double the hourly rate. Many millennials have no clue what it takes to earn an honest day's wage.

I don't presume to have the answers but I guess that you get a sense of why I agree that QC has gone to he** in a hanging basket.

Rant over.

It isn't all about profits; it's about increased costs, especially insurance, utilities, health care, etc., AND a market where prices are screaming to the bottom from just a few years ago.
When you have a race to the bottom, certain areas suffer from cost cutting

 

[6string]

This phenomena is somewhat cyclical. The Bangor Punta era of S&W wasn't all that great, to be honest. Lots of rough guns got out, mistimed, bad forcing cones, etc. Not to pick on S&W, as Colt totally blew it as did others. Frankly, it just opened the doors for Ruger, Dan Wesson, and others, plus gave gunsmiths lots of good work.
The LSI era at S&W gave us the 586/686 and 24-3, and (finally) a 45 Colt with proper cylinder throats. Later on, in the 90s, S&W hit another homerun with the big N frame Mountain Guns. Folks had been clamoring for those for decades, and the S&W guys got it right.
I hear you as to the current state. But, it was only a few years ago that USFA built arguably the quality of SAA that even Colt couldn't manage.
I have to believe that if there is a demand, somehow, the market will fill it.
Speak up loud and often! If S&W won't do it, someone will!

Jim

 

[Klagz13]

its a shame but it seems like every gun manufacture is headed this direction. Honestly I think glock is the most consistent with their line of pistols, I've never seen one that had bad machining or finish issues

But it would still be a glock........


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[Inspector-Callahan]

The firearms industry, and many others in the manufacturing sector, have lost most of their skilled craftsmen over the years.

Craftsmen such as these don't come cheap and, with the focus on increased profitability, manufacturers were driven to automation and became focused on capacity utilization - getting the highest number of finished units out per hour

We all are a bit to blame for this as companies are driven by their stockholders ("Us") to deliver ever-increasing quarterly profits.

I think when we say manufacturers focused on increased profitability, we should probably be saying businesses focused on maintaining a profitable state in the face of increasing labor costs. That is a huge component to automation.

This can obviously affect quality as compromises are made and controls must be sufficient to prevent failures.

With equivalent levels of hand fitting and today's labor prices, a revolver priced at $700, would probably be $3000+ (see Korth or FA). Some would be willing to pay that, however most would not.

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[bmcgilvray]

This is only my view on the subject.

Of course craftsmanship got costly and it became expensive to build guns in the "old" way so firearms became cheapened. One can debate why. Economies changed. The nation's attitude has changed. Greed probably should be considered the main dynamic behind the change. Greed on the part of the companies, unions, workers, government, and consumers. It's not capitalists, it's the nation as a whole which has brought firearms quality to the state we now find. There's more of an expectation of something for nothing today which goes hand-in-hand with a nation that wishes to compel cradle-to-grave security from government, employer, and society generally without investing much at all. There is an unavoidable cost attached to this nation's current wants however.

What galls me most is being told by the companies, marketers, and a generation of fellow shooters that all of this "less-is-more" that we now see in gun catalog offerings is superior to the guns I admired in my youth. The firearms world is drowning in a sea of cheap-o and uninspiring black plastic, aluminum alloy, and piano wire. There's a certain dull sameness about it all. It's all unimaginative AR 15 variants, plastic DAO handgun variants, and 10/22s all the time. The self-contained metallic cartridges being used are the same as ever but the delivery systems have changed and not for the better unless one embraces the "ever smaller, ever lighter" mantra.

While it may not be considered "perfection" guess which one of these is most admired at this house.

 

[gman51]

Get them made and sold. CS will deal with any defects customers might find. Sorry to say some gun makers have a very poor customer service and warranty.
Luckily I have not found any gun maker CS using a foreigner taking the calls. If when you are on hold for a CS representative for any product and you hear rap music at least you know you will be speaking to an American.

 

[ancient-one]

Loss of pride in workmanship and the manufacturers placing dollars before
quality.

 

[oneounceload]

Not true. Called increased costs, soft market, and battling cheap plastic imports.
In the wake of all of these antis lawsuits, costs have increased a LOT while prices are plummeting. Companies have to improve automation in manufacturing to cut costs; they're not near perfection in that area YET, but they will be.

I have wood and blue steel as well as striker-fired black plastic; all of mine work just fine. If yours doesn't perhaps you bought the wrong brand.

 

[amazingflapjack]

*****GREED*****

 

[F75gunslinger]

There are so many things that have added to this issue . Poor sales,a lack of disposable income for many people, the advent of CNC and the belief in management that they no longer need to keep trained,experienced craftsmen to put out a good product. What management considers a "good" product these days. WHAT THE BEAN COUNTERS HAVE TO SAY. The fact that the majority of people would rather go down to Wally world and spend $40 on a pair of boots that will last a couple of months instead of paying $200 for a good pair of boots. They seem to think that the $200 boots are ridiculous, but at the end of the year the cheapskate spends more on boots for the year than the guy who buys quality. People don't seem to get that. All they look at is price. Not quality. So manufacturers have cut corners and reduced quality to try to stay competitive at the actual cost of the consumer who should know better.

 

[JM4151]

New guns with problems

I bought a new Mossberg 9 MM handgun last week and I had one failure to lock up out of every magazine that I fired. You could push the slide forward with your thumb but that's not the way its supposed to work. I mailed it back today from FEDEX. I hope thats its right when I get it back.