Gun Trigger Modifications a No Go According to Article

Mr. Hayes good article not withstanding, there should be a sticky on this issue.

On the old Amback Forum, this debate went many pages with learned commentary by notable experts in the field. It's been previously raised here also. Unfortunately, there are folks who don't wish to have their cherished beliefs challenged. Not to mention many more who don't seem to know how to use the search function-which is why notable experts don't keep chiming in. Beating the dead horse is pointless.

Anyone who has examined older firearms-military especially- knows the 1911 didn't get it's mythical reputation with a crisp 4 lb trigger. Nor did most others. Strictly for defensive use, those who need something different from factory specification to be able to use the weapon at all have their modification defence right there. The rest of us simply need to work harder.
 
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Expanded comment:

This is not to say that all "trigger work" is a bad idea or can lead to legal issues. However, manufacturers establish accepted ranges for a safe trigger weight on their products. For example, IIRC the range of weight for the SA mode of a S&W TDA semi-auto pistol is 4.5-6 lbs.

Where people err is when they-or Bubba-decide that the factory weight range is excessively burdensome and proceed to make unauthorized alterations. Alterations from factory specs (absent demonstrated physical impairment that may justify same), especially by uncertified persons, can equal a firearm that can be justly labeled as unsafe.
 
The Department Specification on all NYPD Double Action Only Guns is a 12 pound trigger pull! How many times have we seen on the news that 37 shots were needed by 4 Officers to bring down a Perp? Why you ask......... because it's very difficult to fire every round in DA ACCURATELY when your trigger is 12 pounds!

Why the NYPD Union hasn't fought this is beyond me. I guess they have "dumbed down" their weapons to the worst Recruits ability.
 
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Those of us who started our shooting life long ago, LE or not, frequently did so with double action revolvers. The DA trigger on most of those might have been 12 lbs if we were lucky. We learned to deal with it. As did a whole bunch of folks before us. What NYPD did with their trigger weight spec was try to recreate revolver DA trigger weights. I'm not sure the M&P9 with NY compliant parts makes 12 lbs. More like 10. Not that I"m supporting either enhanced weight, I like the weight of my issue M&P40 standard trigger.

Armed encounters in the real world aren't like being on the square range where your target doesn't move and you generally don't either. Nor is your target shooting back. Large round counts often happen because folks aren't focusing on the fundamentals.
 
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Those of us who started our shooting life long ago, LE or not, frequently did so with double action revolvers. The DA trigger on most of those might have been 12 lbs if we were lucky. We learned to deal with it.
  1. I would NEVER in a million years compare the DA trigger on a Smith revolver with that of ANY DA/"safe action" trigger on ANY semi-auto. That's why I love my Smith revolvers and LOATHE autos with REAL DA (DAO or DA/SA).
  2. At least in DA revolvers, the issue is NOT (within reason) weight but SMOOTHNESS.

    Every DA revolver that I ever expect to use for self-defense has had a trigger job to SMOOTH the SA and DA.
  3. A LOT of DA autos (especially DAO) have HORRENDOUS trigger pulls, both insanely heavy AND rougher than Rosie Perez's vocabulary.

    A friend of a friend is a Cleveland transit cop. His duty firearm is a Beretta 96D. The ONLY worse trigger pull I've EVER seen on a handgun was another friend's Colt All American 2000. It just goes on forever, grinding and scraping the whole way.
 
... Large round counts often happen because folks aren't focusing on the fundamentals.

You'll forgive me if I make a slight correction to the above comment.

Large round counts often happen because folks aren't focusing on the fundamentals.

Needed larger font. ;)

Haphazard work on fundamentals may only yield haphazard competence and results, especially if suddenly having to rely upon those fundamentals under real world conditions, meaning during an unexpected, rapidly evolving, dynamic & chaotic event.
 
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Is this really the new reality?

I've been reading about trigger mods and bullet construction and safety mods being detrimental to self defense cases.
Is it actually a detriment to have a trigger that is conducive to accurate shooting? Is it a detriment to have an effective bullet ( commercial or hand loaded) that will most effectively stop a threat?
Is it detrimental to disable a liability mandated safety that may save your life? ( magazine disconnect )
It seems as if the very advantage we may possess to save our life is a legal liability any more.
When did this happen? And why?
 
For a trigger mod to become an issue, either the gun went off unintentionally, resulting in death or injury or a plaintiff's lawyer must allege that his client had surrendered to you but your gun discharged anyway, the result of a trigger mod.

A similar scenario occurred during the revolver days where it was alleged an officer had cocked his revolver while covering someone with the result that the gun accidentally discharged.

Years ago, a "hair trigger" usually a double-set trigger, could be adjusted to fire with 6 to 8 ounces of pressure. In the 1960s, a 2.5 pound trigger in single action mode was considered normal. Today, lawyers would call that a hair trigger, mainly to impeach you and your gun.

For the most part, I would not concern myself with this nonsense.
 
I started reading gun mags in 1962, I was 14 at the time. This same BS about modified guns and triggers was a hot topic in those days. But no one as far as I can remember ever brought forth a legal case where someone was convicted on the basis of gun mods!!!!!! You can play at what if's forever but as far as I know no one has ever been convicted because of gun modifications for a justified self defense shooting. After 50 years it's time to bury this dead horse!!!!!
 
I started reading gun mags in 1962, I was 14 at the time. This same BS about modified guns and triggers was a hot topic in those days. But no one as far as I can remember ever brought forth a legal case where someone was convicted on the basis of gun mods!!!!!! You can play at what if's forever but as far as I know no one has ever been convicted because of gun modifications for a justified self defense shooting. After 50 years it's time to bury this dead horse!!!!!

AYE! If (God forbid) you get into a shooting make sure you get a lawyer that is gun savvy and will keep the trial on track about the shooting and not the piece in question!
Having picked the brains of several retired Cops on the subject that's the advice I got.
And if you get your weapon modified keep the reciept and make sure its a "name" smith who will testify if necessary.
Dale
 
I would be more concerned about how competent my attorney is at refuting the prosecutions claims of such nonsense and making the jurors believe it is in fact nonsense...IF such nonsense is brought up.
 
About the magazine safety thing......I've been issued sidearms with magazine safeties since 1992. After watching litterally over a million rounds go down range, I find the fuss about them much ado about nothing. I won't go into dreary detail on that, there's a lengthy thread on the old Amback Forum about that one too in....... October, 2006?

If you don't want one, don't buy a gun with one.
 
I agree this is a well worn path. That said, just because there's never been a documented case regarding gun mods or ammo doesn't mean there never will be. Think the other side doesn't read these articles or forums like this? Do what you think is right. Me? My EDC's are all factory stock and loaded with commercial ammo.
 
This is one hill I would not like to climb b/c you never know how a local prosecutor will come at you. Toward that end my self defense guns are all factory stock w/the exception of the grips and some sight paint. Carry ammo is FBI +P factory and is carried b/c of my street experience as a cop.
 
Remember.

In Lawyering-101, they learn a basic tactic: if the evidence is weak, attack the evidence. If the evidence is strong, attack the witness.

It is in the latter case that your opposition might grab at straws to win their case by trying to impeach your character. But, as others have said here, I too am not aware of a case in which a trigger modification or hand loaded ammunition even entered into a case.

However, I believe it was Massad Ayoob (I readily admit that I could be wrong, here) who described a case in which an individual used a magnum revolver of some sort. Attorneys for the other side kept referring to the gun as the magnum, purposely mispronouncing the word as "maaa-gnuumm," in an effort to influence the jury against the defendant. At the risk of a bit of thread drift, this was a matter of trying to convince the jury that deadly force, generally thought of as an absolute, does indeed come in degrees and it is better to kill someone a little bit than too much.
 
I hope you're right Erich.
No need to hope, he's right. Search the web all you want, but you won't find a single case where a gun modification, any gun modification, has played a significant role in sending a person, who was legitimately defending themselves, to prison.

The point that few talk about is accuracy. If modifying the trigger helps you be more accurate, it's probably better to do the modification. There are plenty of cases where a defender was sent to prison because he hit an innocent while trying to defend himself.

So, it's better to hit the intended target. If a modified trigger helps you do that, isn't that the better way to go?
 
Probably partly depends on what state you're in.

Yes.

Additionally, it's becoming more frequent for prosecutors to at least bring it up as "evidence" that a shooter was of the mindset that they intended to use it to shoot someone.

A weak minded or favorable jury may sympathize.

Not everyone will. And you will still be alive. So it's something to at least consider.
 
As I've stated before:

I would be more concerned about how competent my attorney is at refuting the prosecutions claims of such nonsense and making the jurors believe it is nonsense...IF such nonsense is brought up.
 
. . . Additionally, it's becoming more frequent for prosecutors to at least bring it up as "evidence" that a shooter was of the mindset that they intended to use it to shoot someone.

A weak minded or favorable jury may sympathize.

Not everyone will. And you will still be alive. So it's something to at least consider.

The prosecutor shouldn't have to bring it up. If I'm carrying a firearm, I do intend to shoot someone if they put me in immediate fear of serious bodily injury or death and I have no other option at my disposal. That is the only, single, sole, lone reason for carrying a self defense firearm.
 
The prosecutor shouldn't have to bring it up. If I'm carrying a firearm, I do intend to shoot someone if they put me in immediate fear of serious bodily injury or death and I have no other option at my disposal. That is the only, single, sole, lone reason for carrying a self defense firearm.

I understand your point, but don't miss mine with your bravado. It's one thing to defend yourself, and another to have a hunter mentality. That is what a prosecutor will do if he/she/it takes this path...make you seem like you had intent to kill someone despite self defense situations.

Just look at how ridiculous these frivolous law suits have become...people breaking their leg robbing a house, suing the home owner and winning.

Absurd.
 
Are there?
Well, maybe not. I may have been a little hasty in that assertion.

At least in CA you may be held liable for every round that comes out of your gun. Shoot the bad guy while he's trying to rape someone and accidentally shoot the victim as well, she can hold you liable. Miss the bad guy and hit a 3 year old and you may be held liable for the death of that 3 year old.

However, there is an aspect of common law called "Accidental Killing." I found this:
Now suppose that the defendant was lawfully defending himself or his property from attack, and in the process killed an innocent bystander. The defendant told police that lethal force was necessary to thwart an attack upon his person, and he tried to shoot the attacker but instead killed a nearby pedestrian, who had nothing to do with the attack. The common law would have treated the bystander's death as an excusable accidental killing, so long as reasonable grounds existed for the defendant's belief that lethal force was necessary for Self-Defense.
Accidental Killing legal definition of Accidental Killing
So, it seems that a person might not be held guilty if they were indeed defending themselves legally. Still, I'd rather not go to court over that. I still maintain that it's better to use the gun that you're most capable of hitting the target with.
 
I wrote a long answer to this question recently. Let's see if I can find it.

Found it - instead of repeating it here I will refer you to this thread; my reply is number 10 I believe:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/concea...zens-legal-defense-network.html#post138191282

Massad Ayoob does tell that story but as I recall he also tells a story about a defendant who owned a Colt Cobra and the prosecutor kept emphasizing COBRA, until the defense destroyed the foolishness by getting testimony that the gun was named by Colt and was not used in the incident being prosecuted.

You can attack evidence or you can attack the witness/defendant but if the testimony and evidence support the fact that the defendant was in fear for his life he will be no-billed/dismissed/found not guilty. It will cost thousands of dollars to get there but that will be the result barring extraneous evidence that tends to militate against self defense.

If you need a lighter trigger then get a lighter trigger. If it makes you a better shooter so be it. If you need better sights then get better sights. If it makes you a better shooter so be it

Let me tell you what you do NOT need.

You do NOT need to use handloads for self defense. It's risky from the sense of performance against the virtual infallibility or factory ammunition and it does give a prosecutor the ability to ask questions that otherwise make no sense. You want to be able to justify commercial hollow point cartridges because of their effectiveness in stopping an attack and that they'll fail to penetrate and go as far as FMJ ammunition after passing through someone. You don't want to have to justify your home made "killer ammunition". For hunting, whatever, I don't care. For any kind of competition, whatever, I don't care. Don't give "ammunition" to a prosecutor by loading your defense weapons with home made cartridges. That's just asking for a withering cross examination.

You do NOT need to disable a mandated safety device. However, mandated is such a bad word - mandated by whom? If a safety device like a magazine disconnect is mandated by law (maybe there is such a law but I never heard of it) then you're starting off your self defense story on the wrong foot because you're already a criminal, you violated the law. But if it's a safety device that a manufacturer put into a pistol then disabling it has a much different effect.

You have to consider the possibility that the safety device being removed might be far more detrimental to your life than leaving it in. Do you really expect to be in a confrontation where you're going to drop your magazine out of your pistol and that one last shot is going to save you? That happens in books and movies. If you're that disturbed by a magazine disconnect then buy a self defense pistol that doesn't have one. It's that simple.

Disabling a magazine disconnect is far more likely to lead to an accidental discharge than saving your life.

Disabling the internal lock on a S&W revolver is different. I don't do it but that's not a safety device with respect to shooting, that's a safety device with respect to storage.

I reiterate what I said in the other thread - a "righteous shoot" to use an LEO term, is just that, a righteous shoot, and worrying about triggers and sights and ammunition is simply not your biggest problem. Justifiable homicide sends you home - keep it justifiable and your triggers and sights and stocks (we all play with stocks!!) won't matter.

***GRJ***
 
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Lawyers looking to get their guilty clients off with any trumped up excuse so the good guy becomes the bad guy, then their guy is the new "victim".
 
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