Gunshop Removing Magazines

[GaryS]

I planned to do that on Monday if S&W is open.

I don't think they are open until January 2.

I would definitely call, this is unethical. If they'll short customers on magazines, what else do they short customers on?

I don't know if it's criminal, but Smith & Wesson seems very protective of their reputation and they will no doubt frown on this.

 

[hoghunter]

What's REALLY gonna be criminal are the prices the LGS will charge when they get ammo and mags back in stock.

 

[A1U]

Tell S&W, who likely won't do much as retailers can sell guns for as much, with as many or few accessories as they want to.

When a retailer buys a gun it almost always comes from a distributor, not a manufacturer, though there are exceptions. The firearm is then owned by the dealer who can do with it as he pleases. It is like selling your car but putting the cheap stereo back in and keeping the high dollar one. Nothing illegal at all, period.

It is unethical, no question, but an informed consumer is the best enforcer to police such matters. Getting mistreated? Shop elsewhere. Places like that usually earn a poor reputation leading to closure or management changes.

By the way, there is no requirement regarding price or items included required by S&W to sell their firearms.

 

[Edmo]

... and then I would notify any and all local newspaper editors.

The liberal papers would spin the story as "Streets Are Safer - Local Gun Shop Keeps Evil Magazines Off The Street".

Edmo

 

[MichiganScott]

Tell S&W, who likely won't do much as retailers can sell guns for as much, with as many or few accessories as they want to.

When a retailer buys a gun it almost always comes from a distributor, not a manufacturer, though there are exceptions. The firearm is then owned by the dealer who can do with it as he pleases. It is like selling your car but putting the cheap stereo back in and keeping the high dollar one. Nothing illegal at all, period.

It is unethical, no question, but an informed consumer is the best enforcer to police such matters. Getting mistreated? Shop elsewhere. Places like that usually earn a poor reputation leading to closure or management changes.

By the way, there is no requirement regarding price or items included required by S&W to sell their firearms.

My thoughts exactly. Although I don't condone such practices, calling S&W over a missing mag would be the same as calling them about a Shield being marked for over MSRP. Such practices are the American way of doing business in times like this.

I have a long memory. I still don't shop at the few gun stores still open that pulled this kind of **** leading up to and during the Clinton era ban.

Call the police? Seriously? I'd bet you will get your name on the "nut with guns list".

 

[litenlarry]

I don't remnember all the particulars, but basically, a dealer ( OMB Express) was both a LE and civilian dealer..They were taking 1 mag out of the Glock LE package ( 3 mags ), restamping the box to a civilian model ( with 2 mags )..
Glock had given the dealer low prices on the LE models, intended those packages to be sold to LE's..
OMB was a big dealer, sold pistols to LE's everywhere..
Glock found out about what was going on, filed a $5 million plus lawsuit against OMB..OMB filed bankruptcy and is no longer in business..

 

[Maximumbob54]

The liberal papers would spin the story as "Streets Are Safer - Local Gun Shop Keeps Evil Magazines Off The Street".

Edmo

The big city rags might spin that but most small town local papers aren't like the NY Times.

 

[Maddmax]

Tell S&W, who likely won't do much as retailers can sell guns for as much, with as many or few accessories as they want to. By the way, there is no requirement regarding price or items included required by S&W to sell their firearms.

If it SAYS TWO MAGS INCLUDED you should GET TWO MAGS. PERIOD!!!

 

[Maddmax]

During the AWB Glock was even putting a decal on the box stating how many mags were shipped with each gun, and the mag capacity. It was printed in LARGE writing, sounds like something all manufacturers should do.

I agree. It should be in giant 2" letter's right on the top of the box/case of ALL contents included.

 

[geoff40]

What gets me about all this behavior-the current buying frenzy underway, is that nothing has even been put on the table yet as in any bills in Washington. I don't understand any of this "run" at all.
People are buying guns they don't even want, simply because they are supposedly going to be banned. The parking lots of the LGSs around here are full and vehicles line the roadway. Never seen anything like it, its crazy. Multiple FFLs I know have been laughing for years, saying that O is the best thing thats ever happened to them.
I bought 2 more BX-25s a coupe of weeks ago. Thats all I've added. Now, even Ruger is out if stock on them. Look at the prices being hiked up on flea bay for magazines. Or the online gun sites. $1000 or more for a WASR. ARs being advertised for many times what they cost a month ago. Greed, greed, greed.


It's a shame to see this bring out the worst in so many people.

 

[Lost Lake]

I don't remnember all the particulars, but basically, a dealer ( OMB Express) was both a LE and civilian dealer..They were taking 1 mag out of the Glock LE package ( 3 mags ), restamping the box to a civilian model ( with 2 mags )..
Glock had given the dealer low prices on the LE models, intended those packages to be sold to LE's..
OMB was a big dealer, sold pistols to LE's everywhere..
Glock found out about what was going on, filed a $5 million plus lawsuit against OMB..OMB filed bankruptcy and is no longer in business..

Is THAT what happened to OMB???

I used to buy a lot of guns from them (now I go to Bud's Police) and all my LE models came with 3 mags except the M&P22 and M&P45. As far as I know those two models never had three mags.

If they were buying LE models and selling them to civilians, well that is a crime! They get the LE discount, then sell for a marked-up price and keep an extra mag out... Yep, I can see why Glock would sue.

That's why you have to prove you qualify for the LE discount, because the manufacturer will audit you to verify you are passing the discount on to LE personnel....

 

[M29since14]

The police and the S&W factory aren't going to do anything about it. It is a retail transaction. You have the duty to understand what you are buying and not make the transaction or accept delivery unless you get what you are paying for.

It is regrettable that dealers try to pull these shenanigans, but it is not a matter for the police (they would likely refer you to a small-claims court), but there is always the ultimate, simple remedy - "Vote with your feet." Take your business elsewhere.

On a parallel note, maybe not quite as bad, but still good for a laugh, there used to be a local clown who would try to stiff the unsuspecting buyer by backing off strain screws of nice used S&W revolvers and telling the prospective customer the revolver had had a "professional!" action job. He had a little demonstration routine he would go through comparing the used gun with a new one. I still see him at the gun shows, still trying the same old stuff. Oddly enough, he doesn't attempt to charge extra for said action job, it's just part of his ridiculous sales pitch.

 

[litenlarry]

Is THAT what happened to OMB???

I used to buy a lot of guns from them (now I go to Bud's Police) and all my LE models came with 3 mags except the M&P22 and M&P45. As far as I know those two models never had three mags.

If they were buying LE models and selling them to civilians, well that is a crime! They get the LE discount, then sell for a marked-up price and keep an extra mag out... Yep, I can see why Glock would sue.

That's why you have to prove you qualify for the LE discount, because the manufacturer will audit you to verify you are passing the discount on to LE personnel....

Come to think of it, a year or two before OMB closed, they only sold S&W, pushing the M&P..They no longer sold Glocks..Glock would not sell to them..OMB had a printing machine in the back room where they could create their own "factory" sticker, so they would take the Blue label LE off the box and put the civilian "white" label on the box...And of course remove one of the mag's for resale..No wonder I got 6 , G22 mag's from them for $14.99 each no tax and free shipping..

 

[snubbyfan]

Kinda makes me think, how long before such things as barrels and slides are sold as seperate "extras"?

 

[Jyezahn]

Tell S&W, who likely won't do much as retailers can sell guns for as much, with as many or few accessories as they want to.

When a retailer buys a gun it almost always comes from a distributor, not a manufacturer, though there are exceptions. The firearm is then owned by the dealer who can do with it as he pleases. It is like selling your car but putting the cheap stereo back in and keeping the high dollar one. Nothing illegal at all, period.

It is unethical, no question, but an informed consumer is the best enforcer to police such matters. Getting mistreated? Shop elsewhere. Places like that usually earn a poor reputation leading to closure or management changes.

By the way, there is no requirement regarding price or items included required by S&W to sell their firearms.

So, what you're saying is this?

"When a retailer buys a XBOX 360 bundle with a specified included game and extra controller it almost always comes from a distributor, not a manufacturer, though there are exceptions. The gaming bundle is then owned by the dealer who can do with it as he pleases. It is like being a Ferrari dealer and selling a brand new Ferrari but putting the VW bug engine in it and keeping the Ferrari one. Nothing illegal at all, period."

If it's a used gun, I could see the gun shop shorting a mag, but if they're an authorized S&W dealer, selling New-in-the-box guns, they are acting on behalf of the manufacturer in guaranteeing all specified parts from S&W are included. What they'd be doing is called a bait and switch, is it not? That's illegal.

 

[litenlarry]

In most cases that I am aware of, the pistol NIB would be sent to a disributor from the mfgr...The distributor sells to a Gunshop or FFL..
When the GS or FFl get's the pistol, they open the box, check the Ser # and log it in..GS or FFL sells to buyer..
Not sure a mfgr would have direct contact with the LGS..
I can see the buyer complaing to the mfgr and then the distributor contacting the distributor with their concerns..
Distributor then raises Cain with the LGS..
Did that make any sense?

 

[Rastoff]

Much depends on how the store operates. A grocery store, for example, doesn't own the product on the shelves. They only rent shelving space to vendors.

A gun store, on the other hand, doesn't operate that way. I believe the FFL must own the gun in order to legally do the transfer.

So, as unethical as it may be, the gun belongs to them. They may re-sell it in any condition they want. It's only a bait and switch if the product is advertised falsely to get the patron into the store. If it's not advertised with two mags they don't have to deliver it that way.

Nothing illegal about it.

 

[Krogen]

I bought a 40 S&W from an FFL at a gun show recently. Very good price. I asked "2 magazines?" Nope, only one. Oh well, I thought; I'm saving enough to buy a 2nd mag. As the paperwork was going through, he asked if I wanted an extra magazine. He produced an unpackaged one and I bought it. The overall cost was still acceptable and there was no deception. I knew exactly what I was doing. Clearly he had pulled the mag for separate sale. His method allowed him to advertise a lower price and get peoples' attention. It worked, but I admit it left a bad taste in my mouth. The deal felt kind of slimy; like the guy wasn't trustworthy. But again, I knew what I was doing.

 

[Jyezahn]

Much depends on how the store operates. A grocery store, for example, doesn't own the product on the shelves. They only rent shelving space to vendors.

A gun store, on the other hand, doesn't operate that way. I believe the FFL must own the gun in order to legally do the transfer.

So, as unethical as it may be, the gun belongs to them. They may re-sell it in any condition they want. It's only a bait and switch if the product is advertised falsely to get the patron into the store. If it's not advertised with two mags they don't have to deliver it that way.

Nothing illegal about it.

Can you purchase a firearm directly from the manufacturer? No, you can only buy accessories. S&W advertises their M&P compacts as coming with two magazines. If the only way to purchase is through an FFL, and S&W advertises two mags, then according to you, you cannot blame S&W because the gun belongs to the dealer. And you cannot blame the dealer because they own the gun prior to you purchasing it, and can do whatever they want. Catch 22 for the buyer.

I would think the FFL as an authorized distributor, is acting on behalf of S&W as the seller, and are bound by what S&W advertises as coming with the gun. Sounds like bait and switch to me.

 

[Old Unk]

Not all THIEVES work at car dealerships, banks, on Wall Street or in Government..there are plenty to go around..unfortunately.

Some are just worse at getting caught than others..kind of like sexual predators...the ones we know about were the ones that were caught and most aren't according to LE in my area. YMMV.

Best.

 

[A1U]

So, what you're saying is this?

"When a retailer buys a XBOX 360 bundle with a specified included game and extra controller it almost always comes from a distributor, not a manufacturer, though there are exceptions. The gaming bundle is then owned by the dealer who can do with it as he pleases. It is like being a Ferrari dealer and selling a brand new Ferrari but putting the VW bug engine in it and keeping the Ferrari one. Nothing illegal at all, period."

If it's a used gun, I could see the gun shop shorting a mag, but if they're an authorized S&W dealer, selling New-in-the-box guns, they are acting on behalf of the manufacturer in guaranteeing all specified parts from S&W are included. What they'd be doing is called a bait and switch, is it not? That's illegal.

Clearly you didn't take the time to read my post completely.

Yes, if a car dealer wanted to buy a car and remove the engine and advertised it as such it would be perfectly legal. My read of the original post indicates that the dealer in question had the guns priced and displayed with one mag, perfectly legal.

You clearly also missed the section where I said it was unethical. Ethics and the law are two different things in most cases.

It would be bait and switch if they advertised a gun with two mags in an attempt to entice customers, and had none, and then tried to sell an different item. By the way, there is no law other than those imposed by consumers and the market against bait and switch in most states.

It would be illegal if they (the dealer) said one was to reveive two mags and then delivered only one for the price at which two were offered.

Your comparrasions are mostly apples to oranges.

As I said, the behavior is unethical, but perhaps more troubling is the uninformed consumer, or the consumer who continues to shop there after being mistreated.

I did not condone the behavior, but these are not criminal matters or even civil matters in most cases. They are simply bad business.

 

[Jyezahn]

Clearly you didn't take the time to read my post completely.

Yes, if a car dealer wanted to buy a car and remove the engine and advertised it as such it would be perfectly legal. My read of the original post indicates that the dealer in question had the guns priced and displayed with one mag, perfectly legal.

You clearly also missed the section where I said it was unethical. Ethics and the law are two different things in most cases.

It would be bait and switch if they advertised a gun with two mags in an attempt to entice customers, and had none, and then tried to sell an different item. By the way, there is no law other than those imposed by consumers and the market against bait and switch in most states.

It would be illegal if they (the dealer) said one was to reveive two mags and then delivered only one for the price at which two were offered.

Your comparrasions are mostly apples to oranges.

As I said, the behavior is unethical, but perhaps more troubling is the uninformed consumer, or the consumer who continues to shop there after being mistreated.

I did not condone the behavior, but these are not criminal matters or even civil matters in most cases. They are simply bad business.

I read your post and understood it just fine. Clearly, you didn't read my second post. The guns are advertised as coming with 2 magazines from S&W. Since you cannot purchase a gun directly from S&W, you have to go to a dealer. An authorized dealer acts on behalf of S&W. By removing an included part from the manufacturer which advertises it as being included, then charging you extra for that piece, it's bait and switch. If S&W advertises it as coming with two magazines, but the dealer removes one, who's on the stick to give you the second mag? S&W or the dealer?

 

[jag22]

A lot of huffing and puffing going on here, it really comes down to the agreements between S&W and their distributors. I'm sure any good attorney has this point addressed but that doesn't mean its not going on. I think the scenario described by Krogen is very believable, a little guy just selling at gun shows figures he can get away with it whereas a national chain will get a little more attention if they pull it. Kind of sleazy on the sellers part but the buyer should do his home work also. If someone is $20 less you should be sure you are comparing apple to apples. I hope we do hear some followup on this, should be interesting. Having been a business owner myself, we get very independent and quickly realize we get to decide how we run the business, not our customers.

 

[Jyezahn]

I hope we do hear some followup on this, should be interesting.

That's all I'm looking for. No huffing and puffing here, just asking legitimate questions, and trying to get some clarification from knowledgeable members. Not from members who think they're opinion is the end-all-be-all.

 

[kbm6893]

I'd be bad mouthing the dealer left on right, in person and on the web. Every forum would have the guy's name and store address. Hell, I might even sit outside his store (not blocking traffic) and tell customers walking in that the guy is a scumbag. First Amendment says I can. It's only slander if it's not true.

 

[StatesRightist]

My thoughts exactly. Although I don't condone such practices, calling S&W over a missing mag would be the same as calling them about a Shield being marked for over MSRP. Such practices are the American way of doing business in times like this.

I have a long memory. I still don't shop at the few gun stores still open that pulled this kind of **** leading up to and during the Clinton era ban.

Call the police? Seriously? I'd bet you will get your name on the "nut with guns list".

1. No it's not the same, stealing something out of a box is not the same as marking a price up, maybe you need an ethics refresher?
2. Maybe you missed the badge by my name, but since I've actually worn one and you haven't, you might be better off keeping your assumptions to yourself.

I realize labor union states think differently about theft and corruption, but down here thieves are not very popular and the only person I'd add to my list would be the LGS owner/manager.

 

[A1U]

I read your post and understood it just fine. Clearly, you didn't read my second post. The guns are advertised as coming with 2 magazines from S&W. Since you cannot purchase a gun directly from S&W, you have to go to a dealer. An authorized dealer acts on behalf of S&W. By removing an included part from the manufacturer which advertises it as being included, then charging you extra for that piece, it's bait and switch. If S&W advertises it as coming with two magazines, but the dealer removes one, who's on the stick to give you the second mag? S&W or the dealer?

Smith & Wesson does not sell directly, retailers do and once they buy a gun they can sell it as they wish, it is as simple as that. The retailer is in no way responsible for what S&W advertises.

Again, I'm not condoning the process but this bait and switch argument that you keep proposing does not even apply to the situation at hand as the dealer apparently advertised/displayed exactly what he was selling.

Please don't take offense as that is not my intention.

 

[StatesRightist]

Smith & Wesson does not sell directly, retailers do and once they buy a gun they can sell it as they wish, it is as simple as that. The retailer is in no way responsible for what S&W advertises.

Again, I'm not condoning the process but this bait and switch argument that you keep proposing does not even apply to the situation at hand as the dealer apparently advertised/displayed exactly what he was selling.

Please don't take offense as that is not my intention.

A good point....

I'm thinking more along the lines of a special order I already paid for vs the display guns.

I agree if he hands you the box and sells it as is, it's unethical, but not theft.

 

[Springfan]

Perhaps it is inappropriate to inject a little humor into this serious conversation, but this reminds me of my favorite dealer, now gone, who had a great shop in Micanopy, Florida. In the 1960s, friends and I in school at the University of Florida would drive down to visit and stare at the new S&Ws in the display cases. Wow, that model 19 4 inch looks great, but who has $135.00? Well, every now and then, one of us would somehow have $135.00, and after a little haggling (would you include a couple of Budweisers in that price?), the sale would be made. We began to notice, though, that sometimes the new guns in their new boxes with their new S&W paper would have the little plastic pouches with the tools, and sometimes they wouldn't. Nobody wanted to get upset with this dealer whom we liked so much, so it became a little game as to how courteously we could request that the tools be included with the purchase. Each time, at being found out, he would reach under the counter and pull out a tool pouch, and we would both pretend that he was doing us a favor. Guess those times are gone. I still have one of those Model 19s, though, with the tools.

 

[Rastoff]

S&W advertises the M&P with two mags? Could someone please show me one of these ads?

There is no mention of the number of mags, other than in the special "range" kits, on the website.