Handguns: How small is too small and how light is too light?

lrrifleman said:
Please allow me a slightly different perspective.

Back in October during the Adaptive Defensive Shooting Summit, I had the opportunity to fire a P365 in the demonstration bay. At about 12 yards, I was able to knock down all of the plates consistently, using a 2 handed hold. The next day I ended up winning one.

Fast forward to this past weekend. I had taken possession of my P365 earlier in the week. When I went to the range, I was 3 weeks post-op from hand/arm surgery on my left arm, and 3 months post-op from surgery on my right arm, so I was forced to shoot strong hand only. I would like to think that my hand condition replicated that of your typical senior with hand strength issues. Let me preface, I had no discomfort shooting a Glock 17 strong hand.

With the P365, I had to be creative in order to rack the slide. I did experience palm discomfort, which I attribute to the post-op tenderness due to carpal tunnel surgery. I had less control of the pistol at distances beyond 15 yards. Recoil felt a little sharp.

In short, in my current condition, shooting the P365 was a bit unpleasant. I vowed to not do any extensive shooting with the little Sig until my hands toughened up. Prior to the last 2 surgeries, the little P365 was manageable. With "tenderized" hands, the little P365 would probably be viewed as too small/light a pistol for serious social encounters.

What is too small or too light really depends on the individual doing the shooting. Honestly, I don't see myself considering something smaller or lighter than the P365. However, until my hands heal, I may find that my 9mm 1911 Commander would be the smallest/lightest pistol for serious social encounters.
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There are exceptions to everything and yours is certainly a legitimate exception.
 
All good points here. My take on it is practice, practice, practice. Smaller firearms can be as accurate as larger ones, with practice. The smallest I have is the LCP and when I first bought it I thought I threw my money away. Coming from larger firearms I had to practice a lot to get more accurate/confident with it...
 
When it is a carry gun, they do not get too light. Mine is an 18 oz (unloaded) 44 and I sometimes forget it is on my belt. (396)
 
rockquarry said:
You give up nothing in carrying a small, light, gun IF you take the time to learn to shoot it well. No one knows how many actually do this, but I suspect those that think J-frame revolvers or small automatics are only good at very close distances haven't practiced with them enough to know otherwise.

Small guns are far more difficult to shoot well than bigger ones. That's not a secret. If the guns really don't shoot well beyond a few yards, or the shooter with sufficient practice can't shoot them well, then the shooter needs to look elsewhere.

You don't have to practice at 25 yards regularly if you don't want to, but that's a good distance to use for quickly determining things mentioned above. Fifteen yards or closer won't tell you much.

As an aside, I see people at a private gun club range regularly shoot handguns at 5 -15 yard yard targets, never beyond. That may be an ego booster but it won't help much in developing good shooter skill.
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I completely disagree. If I have to shoot someone, it is going to be at very close range. If they are at 25 yards, just how much danger are you in? Why are you shooting at all?

Seriously, you'd be much better served practicing at 3 yards, using no sights at all.

[Unless you are military or police.]
 
I have 3 9MM handguns. A 365, a G17 and a RIA 1911 full size. While the 1911 is the gun I shoot best, ask me which of the other 2 is next? Hint: the g is on the end. That's right, I shoot my little 365 better than my full size Glock. All the pistols are bone stock. It depends on the individual. The Sig fits my hands better than the Glock. The other thing is that, even on a "tiny" gun I think the Sig has better sights and a better trigger. YMMV. Would I shoot the Glock better if I had better sights and a better trigger? Of course. Would I shoot it better than the Sig? I don't know. It would always be heavier and bulkier though.
 
Gamecock said:
I completely disagree. If I have to shoot someone, it is going to be at very close range. If they are at 25 yards, just how much danger are you in? Why are you shooting at all?

Seriously, you'd be much better served practicing at 3 yards, using no sights at all.

[Unless you are military or police.]
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I've thought about that, and the scenario that comes to mind is at church. After watching the video of the armed parishioner in Texas taking down the shotgun wielding shooter with a head shot at about 15 yards, I decided I might someday have to take a shot with my snub nose at more than close range. Consequently, every trip to the range since, I put a silhouette target at 25 yards and practice torso hits with my snubnose and/or my 380 Bodyguard. That's about 25 paces, or close to the distance from the front to the back pews at my church. At first, I just wanted to make sure I could make a torso hit. Now I'm working on getting the groups tighter.

I suppose there are other scenarios, but I can't think of any. And I pray that one never happens. My church seats around 175 people, but like a lot of traditional churches our congregation is old, is dying off, and attendance has shrunk to a couple dozen people. That doesn't mean we someday couldn't be a target.

You may not agree with my reasoning. Not sure it's right myself, but it is what it is. It you're thinking a snubnose isn't the best tool for that job, you'd be right. But my 30-30 doesn't conceal too well.
 
A couple of months ago, a co-worker and myself were discussing whether to save our current 2nd "stimulus" deposit, or go buy a new 9mm "toy". We looked at several similar small 9mm's, and I bought the 365XL, while he bought a Hellcat. In each case, the gun we picked fit our hand better, and concealed equally on our sizes and build. Both are factory fitted for reflex optics.

We looked at the Shield PLUS info yesterday after the press release, and we both felt we made the right choice when we did. We both thought the PLUS had melded a Hellcat slide to a 365 frame, with a Hellcat trigger. Sorry guys, but that is what it looks like.

The 365XL bites my hand a bit, but most of that is the aggressive checkering on the grip. 9mm in a 20oz. gun is sharp recoil, no matter what. Much like +P's in a j-frame. After I get it broken in (no misfires, shoots to POI quite well), I may put a sheet of 1000 grit in my palm and just rub it around a bit to take the points off the grip where I hold it.
 
hyena said:
... You may not agree with my reasoning. Not sure it's right myself, but it is what it is. It you're thinking a snubnose isn't the best tool for that job, you'd be right. But my 30-30 doesn't conceal too well.
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I TOTALLY agree with your reasoning. At least one of my J Frames goes with me everywhere when I leave the house.
 
When I think about a NAA 22 revolver carried IN a belt buckle, I think of talisman or rabbits foot....

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Smallest belt gun, Shield
Smallest pocket gun, LCP

Weight and grip length are most determining factors.

When I did my CCW the instructor challenged us to carry routinely so for me to carry day in day out gun needs to be light enough.


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I shoot my P938 better than my Beretta 92. Probably because I shoot it more often. Small? I carry a Seecamp .32. I shoot that better than the bodyguard I replaced with the Seecamp.
 
Lots of good points above. I have operated on the Clint Smith theory that a gun should be comforting, not necessarily comfortable - although UNcomfortable is not a great plan. I look at it this way - if a concealed carry gun is going to recoil so markedly that it negatively impacts my ability to hit anything more than ten feet away from me then it's the wrong gun to carry. Since I do not carry service sized pistols and revolvers that gets us to 2" J and K frame sizes in steel and CS-9 and CS-45 sized pistols.

I completely and absolutely rule out Airweights or any kind. Massad Ayoob, I think, said they should be shot a little and carried a lot. Agreed. But not shot at all is a better answer. A 22 ounce J frame is no more difficult to carry than a 14 ounce J frame in your pocket or on your belt. The 22 ounce gun will not impede a second shot or more if you need it. Therefore, all steel is the winner. YMMV

Never mind a 2" K frame, which adds another round of firepower and is way, way easier to shoot.

Since all I carry in revolvers are S&Ws I limit my discussion to them. I do have a vintage Colt Cobra and I limit its time outside to jogging and bicycling, neither of which I do any longer so that ends that discussion for me right there.

As for pistols, my personal preference presently (say that 3 times fast! :D) is a compact 9mm. The CS-9 is around 23 ounces, my one polymer center fire pistol being a Walther CCP which is around 22 ounces and a 6906 weighs around 26 ounces. All of those are easily concealed and possess additional firepower if you think your 5 or 6 shot revolver won't do today.

I
've thought about that, and the scenario that comes to mind is at church. After watching the video of the armed parishioner in Texas taking down the shotgun wielding shooter with a head shot at about 15 yards, I decided I might someday have to take a shot with my snub nose at more than close range.
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I've thought about it, too. In that situation I carry a pistol, not a revolver, for the extra rounds and because I shoot all of the identified pistols better than my M649.

Those tiny 9mms leave me cold. Way too much bang for the buck. If I'm going to carry tiny then I need a tiny caliber. .25 ACP. .32 ACP. It jus' beez dat weigh.......
 
For many years I carried a Kahr PM9. About 2 years ago I upgraded to a Sig P365. A bit larger than the single stack Kahr, but still very much doable in the front pocket in an Alabama Pocket Holster with almost twice as much ammo on board.

There are times, however, when the dress code won't even let me carry one of them, but I have not yet found it impossible to carry a KT P32. It is the gun that I carry when I cannot carry a gun, if you get my drift. It wasn't my intention, but I was once let into a venue after being wanded, and only later discovered that I had forgotten to remove the P32. (Before anyone has a hissy fit, it wasn't a place where I put my liberty at jeopardy by carrying, if I had been discovered I would have been asked to remove it or myself from the premises.)
 
The dilemma of small/ultra lite carry comfort and larger/heavier has to be balanced with suitably for intended purpose.

The little guns (j frames, Shield etc) are pretty good for across the card table. The miniatures (25 acp, NAA atrocities) are great noise makers and have utility at contact range.

The issue isn't a debate about caliber or power: it's the limitations of gun and shooter.

Imagine you're in a movie theater with your gun and a fellow appears in front of the movie screen with an AR, a shotgun. or AK and starts shooting.

If all you have is one of any of these comfortable little guns, you might as well have left it at home.

If you're carrying a Commander sized 1911 or a G19 sized gun, you have a chance of helping yourself. You can reach out.
 
The smallest and lightest gun i carry is my 340pd. I carry it almost 100% of the time either as a main or backup gun.

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ISCS Yoda said:
I completely and absolutely rule out Airweights or any kind. Massad Ayoob, I think, said they should be shot a little and carried a lot. Agreed. But not shot at all is a better answer. A 22 ounce J frame is no more difficult to carry than a 14 ounce J frame in your pocket or on your belt. The 22 ounce gun will not impede a second shot or more if you need it. Therefore, all steel is the winner. YMMV[/I]
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It does - vary. I can tell all the difference in the world between a 14 ounce J frame and a 20 ounce Shield in suit pants. I replaced the stock grips on my 642 with Uncle Mikes and the recoil from a Gold Dot 135 gr SB load is quite manageable. On the belt, no difference. In a jeans pocket, insignificant. But in lighter weight pants, the extra weight results in sagging and swinging. Maybe nobody else notices. Maybe.

On the other hand, if I really need (or want) tiny I find the Remington RM380 handles the recoil well and the locked breech makes slide manipulation easy even on the the days Arthur Itis comes to visit. Add in a reasonably smooth DAO and second strike capability and it has everything I want in a little package. I shoot the 642 better, though, so the .380 sees more time in the safe than the pocket.
 
hyena said:
I've thought about that, and the scenario that comes to mind is at church. After watching the video of the armed parishioner in Texas taking down the shotgun wielding shooter with a head shot at about 15 yards, I decided I might someday have to take a shot with my snub nose at more than close range. Consequently, every trip to the range since, I put a silhouette target at 25 yards and practice torso hits with my snubnose and/or my 380 Bodyguard. That's about 25 paces, or close to the distance from the front to the back pews at my church. At first, I just wanted to make sure I could make a torso hit. Now I'm working on getting the groups tighter.
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Yes, longer distance makes sense for you. Your role is more like Law Enforcement. I expect to protect me; other scenarios unlikely.
 
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