Has the Scout Rifle Outlived it's Hey Day?

[M29since14]

…Criticizing Jeff Cooper without understanding him is a current fad on the gun webs.

Kind Regards!
BrianD

Over the years, many people have found it fashionable to put words in Cooper's mouth, so to speak. His writing was always clear enough. One only needed to read it - not interpret it.

Incidentally, I don't recall that he ever mentioned a Scout needing a battle rifle size magazine. In fact, I believe he leaned exactly the opposite, since huge magazines are contrary to several aspects of the Scout concept.

 

[Mike in Reedley]

The forward mounted scope was to make loading a little easier, but mainly it was believed you could acquire targets more quickly than a conventional scope. I had one of the first Savage Scouts in .308, a Ruger American in .308 that had been Scouted, a Styer Scout in .223 and a Christensen Ridgeline Scout in .308.

Detachable magazines made reloading quicker and easier. LPVO conventional mounted scopes acquire targets just as quick as forward mounted scopes (at least for me). Forward mounted scopes are not as effective in low light, such as sunrise/sunset as a conventional mounted one because of the excessive ambient light.

I still have the Styer .223 with a 1 1/2 X 4 Leupold and the Christensen Scout .308 with a 3X9 Leupold. Both scopes are conventionally mounted. The .223 ammo is cheaper and a lot softer shooting. The .308 handles any hunting I might ever do. I've been to Gunsite's 270 Basic Rifle class and I am planning on attending again this fall. I think the "Scout Rifle" is continually evolving and a more accurate name might be "Practical Rifle".

 

[Sistema1927]

I built a pseudo-Scout from an Ishapore Enfield about 20 years ago. Chopped the barrel, put a synthetic stock on it, and an LER scope. The barrel mount put the scope too high to be used without a cheek riser. It was fun, but in no way representative of the Colonel's ideal.

It got traded off, a couple of years later I acquired a Ruger GSR in .308. Low mount Leupold 2.5x LER. A completely different animal than the Ishapore that I cobbled together. It would make weight if I traded out for the synthetic stock, but there is something about the laminate that makes it special. It is a "grab and go" carbine that often goes along for the ride even if I don't know what I will be pursuing or be pursued by.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Jeff Cooper just liked to hear himself talk, usually offering answers and opinions to questions nobody asked. It didn't matter what the subject was.......

As has already been pointed out, Jeff Cooper was a salesman. No surprise, therefore, that his chosen platform for promoting his rifle was "Guns & Ammo" magazine, home of articles such as: "Revolver vs. Auto: Which is Best" or "9mm vs. 45 ACP: for Service and Defense" and other such erudite fodder.
And, maybe, that was/is a significant point: to create a market demand for a (not so) new product.
But, more importantly, Jeff Cooper was a cultist. Beyond the hyperbole and salesmanship, from reading his books and articles, what he really sought was a band of worshipping followers.
He wasn't interested in your ideas. He wanted you to adhere to his. And, hence, the "scout rifle".

Perfectly describes the man I met one time years back. He was perhaps the biggest Alpha Hotel I ever had the displeasure of meeting. I was a guest at the home in which I met him, so I remained polite but could not wait to leave. I started reading about him, witnessed the remarkable similarity between his Gunsite emblems to Nazi memorabilia as well as his cultish admiration to many things Aryan and came to the conclusion that he was a total ****** fruitcake.

 

[2152hq]

I was never a fan of the forward mounted scope on a rifle.
Call it a 'Scout' or what ever you want to. It doesn't do much at all for a shooter in my estimation.
Some shooters say they can get on target quicker and things like that.
Then go for it. I just never experienced that.
Open sights will do that for me.

What the fad had done over the years has saved a lot of fine Military and some classic sporter rifles from being D&T'ed for scope bases. Sometimes none too professionally done.
The 'Scout Scope Mount bases offered from a few companys to take the place of existing rear sight assemblys and lock into the orig bases w/o any alterations gave the 'I gotst'a have a scope' generation their optic sight but w/o damaging the rifles originality.
Maybe a lost rear sight assembly at times when the scope was later removed, but at least the receiver was saved from the Black&Decker monster.

I can't ever remember reading a full article written by the Col.
Just didn't find the stuff interesting.

 

[TheTinMan]

So is this a "scout rifle"?
Rossi R-95 .30-30 with full RPP treatment and 2x prism optic. It's lightweight, quite fast both to sight in and cycle, and a hoot to shoot.

Note: no Marlins were harmed creating this image! I confess that I did this partly to horrify the more closed-minded members of the MarlinOwners forum.

 

[LVSteve]

What the fad had done over the years has saved a lot of fine Military and some classic sporter rifles from being D&T'ed for scope bases. Sometimes none too professionally done.
The 'Scout Scope Mount bases offered from a few companys to take the place of existing rear sight assemblys and lock into the orig bases w/o any alterations gave the 'I gotst'a have a scope' generation their optic sight but w/o damaging the rifles originality.
Maybe a lost rear sight assembly at times when the scope was later removed, but at least the receiver was saved from the Black&Decker monster.

As a milsurp guy, this is the key for me.

 

[Telecaster]

Perfectly describes the man I met one time years back. He was perhaps the biggest Alpha Hotel I ever had the displeasure of meeting. I was a guest at the home in which I met him, so I remained polite but could not wait to leave. I started reading about him, witnessed the remarkable similarity between his Gunsite emblems to Nazi memorabilia as well as his cultish admiration to many things Aryan and came to the conclusion that he was a total ****** fruitcake.

I always wondered about the emblem, too.

 

[Llance]

Not being a general reader of the gun mags until recently I was never "into" the scout rifle fad. Then again, I had my Grandfathers Marlin 336A to shoot and carry all over the western Washington mountains.

And later when I was hunting in Colorado, I longed for a short, light weight rifle with a scope. Pity I never got one. Recently (the last 5 years or so) I happened on a Remington M600, and it has turned out to be the rifle I wanted in the years I hunted Colorado.

Again recently, (last 15 years I was given a Mossburg bolt action .22LR. The barrel for the first 6 inches from the muzzle back to the chamber was in a deep state of corrosion. How bad? The barrel was completely blocked with orange rust. I cut the barrel back 8 inches, and the magazine tube, crowned the new muzzle, bead blasted the action, barrel, mag tube, sanded and oiled the stock, mounted a fine Simmons scope, and made myself a fair representation of a scout rifle in .22lr caliber. And it's a treat to carry and shoot here in these northern Illinois woods, just as the Remington M600 would be in the hills and valleys of Colorado.

Anybody who has been forced to carry a 9-11 pound or heavier rifle in the mountains of Colorado will surely appreciate a "scout rifle".

Remember that most game for the table, regardless of where it is taken, is taken in less than 200 yards. Yes, maybe in your area it is further, but the reality is, that is not the norm. In western Washington most game is taken within 75 feet not yards.

In my view a "scout rifle" is just a step up from a camp gun. That one gun that is handy, reasonably light to carry, that anybody can grab and hunt with if needed, but which is also that gun you might want to have with you in the truck or on the 4wheeler for that opportune time when you haven't filled your tag but, lo and behold, a fine table specimen of venison ambled up from the draw, outside the reach of your sidearm and your lever-gun in the rack behind the seat. In such a case you don't have to guess the correct amount of elevation to hold over, you just sight and poke that .308 round in the boiler, and then go collect your dinner, because you sighted that scout rifle for two or three hundred yards, and you are confident of your abilities.

 

[Imissedagain]

The Scout Rifle moved aside when the
Stout Revolver arrived.
A fast 5 is possible.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

So is this a "scout rifle"?
Rossi R-95 .30-30 with full RPP treatment and 2x prism optic. It's lightweight, quite fast both to sight in and cycle, and a hoot to shoot.

Note: no Marlins were harmed creating this image! I confess that I did this partly to horrify the more closed-minded members of the MarlinOwners forum.

At a loss for words.........All I can say is GEEZ......

 

[OutAtTheEdge]

I've always favored the basic scout rifle premise; a general-purpose rifle, lightweight, quick-handling, suitable for most situations it's owner might encounter. Essentially, as has been pointed out here, that rifle you'd grab if you weren't sure what you needed it for.

What I've never bought into, is Col. Cooper's overly specific guidelines for the scout rifle's configuration. Now, in all fairness, as far as I know he did coin the term "scout rifle", so I guess it was his prerogative to define it any way he pleased.

So, that said, I'll just call mine an "Out Rifle", for those times when I might find myself Out At The Edge. For my purposes, I chose the AR15 platform in .300 Blackout. I selected the components for quality and light weight. With the Wilson Combat SS fluted barrel, the slick-side upper, Doublestar ACE Ultralight stock, and Leupold 2.5x20 Ultralight scope in an Aero 1-piece mount, this handy carbine comes in at 6.5 lbs with an empty 10 rd magazine. It's death on whitetails, so I imagine it would suffice for about anything else that might need shooting here in Wisconsin.

 

[Kinman]

Well, you're dead right, I don't want to drill my Mausers or Enfields.

On other forums there are some very impressive groups made using Swede Mausers in 6.5x55 fitted with forward mounted scopes. Their accuracy can be summed up as "more than adequate for government work."

I built my take on the "scout rifle" from a Swedish Mauser with excellent bore and used that slick front sight replacement scope mount, put a long eye relief scope on and everyone that has shot it loves it. I have it sighted in dead on at 150yds and it as accurate as is necessary.

 

[SuperMan]

Savage Scout 7.62x39...Burris 2-7 Scout Scope...Lapua ammo...400 yards.

Ruger Frontier .358 Winchester same scope...

Both are shooters...Bob

 

[Imissedagain]

Scout scope is IER. Intermediate eye relief.
Pistol scope is EER. Extended eye relief.

 

[hardluk1]

Col. Jeff Cooper offered mostly good advise but the scout scope is not one of those for me . I spent to many years hunting with a 2.5-10x40mm scope on a rem 788 in 308 before the scout rifle came to be and was comfortable in thick creek bottoms or hard wood swamps or making a heart shot at 350 yards in the field .

I have tried a steyr scout rifle back around '99 or 2000 a dealer local had as his own rifle . It had the luppy 2 power scout scope but it was not an opinion I would use even if free and even the owner over the rifle ended up replacing that scope for a normal variable power rifle scope .

A variable power standard rifle scope can give you a chance at a quality shot with a larger field of view and have a better light gathering ability when that is needed .

Cooper also loved his steel 5" 1911 in 45 But when the siggly P225 came along he preferred it for daily carry !? Glad we have choices to buy a use what we like .

 

[Brian Parrish]

Cooper said, "If you can't hold it there for 60 seconds, then your rifle is too heavy."But I say, "If you can't hold it there for 60 seconds, then you are too weak!" There is a photo.

In the chapter entitled, "The Instrument" are four pages including two photos, containing by far the LEAST important information in the whole book. He says, "The forward mounted Scoutscope permits strip loading in conjunction with a Mauser type action." This is the other photo.

At the time of the Cooper's Commentaries, 1993-2006, there was a lot of talk about the scout rifle among people who never developed any of the skills which would make the concept meaningful. But you know this is what we do. We talk about equipment and buy the next thing because that is easy and allows us to maintain our self-illusions. But if you try to actually shoot like he says you must, it will require humility and long determination.

Go do it. I really believe God will be proud of you.
BrianD

 

[MelvinWalker]

Frankly, a historical "scout rifle" was simply a Winchester 94 in .30-30 with a 1950's-70's quality Japanese optic in 4x32.

This scout rifle trend may have been an ephemeral Guns and Ammo concept/thing at some point in the past, but I never saw or heard of this concept until Mosins and Mausers starting becoming cheap in the late 1990's.

 

[sigp220.45]

The "Scout Rifle" never had a hey day. Its a fantasy, which is fine. You're sitting at your desk, filing TPS reports but thinking about grabbing the perfect rifle to head out into the hills, bills and bosses left behind.

Cooper lost me me when he said our troops would be better armed with 1860 Colt Armies and Winchester 94s than Beretta M9s and M16s. C'mon.

I respect his service but that's about it.

 

[BarryinIN]

I always wondered about the emblem, too.

Cooper's wife was of Scandinavian ancestry. The Raven has been a Norse symbol for centuries, as a protector or guardian. Or, one might say, self-defense.

Nazi memorabilia? Good Lord.

 

[BarryinIN]

Cooper also loved his steel 5" 1911 in 45 But when the siggly P225 came along he preferred it for daily carry !?

He what? Are we just making things up at random now?

 

[brucev]

Read G&A along with Shooting Times, etc. when I was a student. Enjoyed the articles. Closest I ever came to a Scout rifle was to think about a Remington Model 7 chambered in 7mm-08. Never could afford it, so forgot about it. Later, graduated, could afford surplus rifles. Decided that a plain Jane Springfield 03-A3 was about all I needed for hunting or whatever. Occasionally borrowed rifles from my brother, but kept coming back to the Springfield. Few years ago, finally had to accept I could no longer ethically hunt deer w/ iron sights. Found a 03-A3 w/ bent bolt. Had it D/T. Keeps five shots at MOA or under. Not heavy. Still can carry it anywhere all day. Never have to wonder if it will work. If I'd been thinking, I'd have found an action and set it up for in military form w/ a commercial barrel and a forward mounted scope. That would have allowed clip loading, etc. Oh well. If I again get to go deer hunting, I will just make due with that faux 03-A4. But, then again, if I ever see a Rem. Model 7 ... well, I can dream. Sincerely. bruce.

 

[lawdog45]

Scout Rifle

I have an original Steyr Scout in 308, traditionally mounted Khales 1.1 X 4.5 X 20mm, 30mm tube. It is light enough to carry and heavy enough to absorb recoil. It is an ideal rifle for hunting out of a box blind. (as I enter my 80th year the box blind is more and more my style of hunting). It shoots smaller groups than I am capable of. I zeroed the rifle years ago with 168 Grain Hornady ammo and have never had turret caps off since.The trigger out of the box is light and crisp. I have no need for magazines that will accommodate a full box of shells. As a general purpose weapon it has no short comings. If elk or bear or plains game is on the menu, I have more suitable calibers but in a pinch the Scout will serve.

 

[LVSteve]

As an aside, why is it that nobody can spell Steyr?

 

[Cotis]

Yes, I feel the scout rifle has outlived its heyday. Especially the "scout" scope concept. It does nothing well with serious limitations in several scenarios (sun into or behind you, precise shots at distance). And I own a Steyr Scout .308, but pulled the scout scope years ago for a conventional setup.

Something like a Ruger SFAR makes it obsolete.

 

[LostintheOzone]

I never saw the fascination with the scout rifle concept, at least with the barrel mounted scopes.

That's the problem with the original concept. I'm not sure why anyone would even consider one. There are a few light weight bolt rifles out there that use magazines, so the stripper clip is obsolete. So is the long eye relief scope although they can still be sourced because occasionally people buy those for..... scout rifles. Blind and floor plate magazines, although many exist, are last century rifles. I have one so I know why a scout rifle would be an advantage if someone were actually shooting at you.

Cavalry Scouts use their special training to obtain, distribute, and share vital combat and battlefield intelligence on the enemy and on combat circumstances and environmental conditions. The Cavalry Scout is also known as the "eyes and ears" of the Army.

Cooper lived in a world without drones watching the enemies movements. So he only knew the Army tactics of his time.

The concept isn't applicable to todays light weight bolt rifles with composite stocks. The Ruger Ranch bolt rifle weighs 6.8 lbs. Put a dot on it and it weighs even less than a scoped rifle.

 

[M29since14]

…then again, if I ever see a Rem. Model 7 ... well, I can dream. Sincerely. bruce.

Ah, yes, the Model 7. What a delightful little lightweight rifle. One of my great mistakes was letting one go that I bought for my daughter. When it became obvious she would not be the hunting type, I thought I could use the money better elsewhere. I did. I bought her a very nice 1911 .45 Auto, which she enjoys and is proficient with for informal target shooting, but I should have kept the Model 7, too. Nicely checkered, pretty, well shaped, dark colored walnut stock with cute schnabel forearm, short barrel with serviceable, if not ideal, iron sights, trim and very light - and in .260 Remington caliber. (Not a .308, but a decent caliber for a handloader, and especially for a lady, or a recoil sensitive shooter.) A foolish mistake in the extreme.

Realizing my error, later I replaced the .260 with a 7KS in .308, for my own use, and I still have it, but it is not the delight the wood stocked Model 7 was. It has a receiver mounted Leupold VX-2 1-4x scope. Will shoot almost any .308 ammo into 1.5" at 100 yards, often a bit better. In my opinion, it's less of a burden to carry than the Steyr, even with the receiver mounted scope, and maybe faster to bring into action. I have no reason to be overly concerned about the reliability of the Remington action, though the rear guard screw could be improved. The scope is secured by a Pilkington rear lever, for quick detach if damaged, but the design does not permit reliable return to precise zero in reinstall without verification. I doubt Mr. Cooper would be satisfied with my 7KS, but I also doubt he would deny its handiness.

Jeff has been gone now for 18+ years. In the present crop of writers, I don't see that anyone has come along to fill in the void, and it seems obvious none of them are interested in trying.

 

[Scooter1942]

I've always been intrigued with the concept. Back in the day, some 20+ years ago, I bought a Savage Scout in 7mm-08. Great little rifle. I only ever shot paper but found it to be accurate and handy. I simply couldn't afford a Steyr Scout, but always thought they were cool

Fast forward to a couple of weeks ago. Cabela's had purchased a lot of Steyr Scouts in 6.5 Creedmoor. They were marked down to $1199. I watched over several months as they started to thin out and then a couple of weeks ago they dropped to $999. Then discovered that for members aka people who have a Cabela's Card that on Monday's between now and Memorial Day you could stack a 10% discount with the 5% military discount, plus bonus bucks or whatever. Long story short, I managed to get one for only $830. At that price, I don't really care if it has outlived its usefulness!

I plopped a Leupold FXII 6x36 in the conventional scope mount spot and took it to the range yesterday for an initial zero.

10 shots inside .46" at 50 yards with 130 Berger's. I'll load up some more and stretch it out in the weeks ahead.

 

[dmar]

A lever action Marlin .30-30 would make an excellent " scout " rifle. And allows the magazine to be topped off without taking the gun off your shoulder.
A lot cheaper than some other guns too.

I've got a (JM) Marlin 336D "Guide Gun" in .35 Remington. It's got a 18.5" ported barrel and straight stock. It's really a 'scout rifle' set up. Nice gun, I believe Marlin only made 1,000 of these "Guide Guns." My understanding is that they're pretty sought after my Marlin collectors…

 

[M29since14]

…10 shots inside .46" at 50 yards with 130 Berger's. I'll load up some more and stretch it out in the weeks ahead.

The modern Steyr Scouts seem to be uniformly good shooters, from the accounts I've heard. A light, handy, reliable rifle that is accurate and is chambered for a reasonably powerful cartridge can hardly "outlive it's usefulness." It will still be useful generations from now, maybe just not the height of fashion. Congratulations on your new Scout.

Someone mentioned earlier that the .358 Winchester cartridge would seem ideal for a modern day "Lion Scout." I had not thought of that but it would certainly get my attention if Steyr would offer it. I doubt the idea would attract their attention, though it should. Leads one to wonder if that shouldn't be a "rifle project" for the future…