have a few question regarding an early smith & wesson 44 double action first model re

[superdave269]

have a few question regarding an early smith & wesson 44 double action first model re

I am seeking information on this early 44 DA 1st model. This is my buddy's gun. His father bought it a long time ago. He does have the correct grips for it. His Dad put on the fancy ones.

1st question, since it's two tone are the top release, trigger guard supposed to be blue? The hammer & trigger are case colored.
2nd question, whats the deal with the set screw on the grip frame? Is it there to adjust the trigger pull? If so what the correct way to do that?
3rd and most important question for now, He has a box of 44 Russian ammo for it. I told him in no way shoot that ammo. Since this gun was made in the 1880s it was a black powder gun. I would like to dump the powder and use smokeless but need data to do it safely. Any idea of a safe load? Originally it looks like they were loaded with 23 grns of powder. I found a post that stated "Phil Sharpe's 1937 reloading handbook for the .44 Russian recommends 3.0 grains of Bullseye for the 205-grain bullet, and 5.5 grains of Bullseye for the 246-grain bullet." That seams a bit hot to me. What do you think?
Thanks

 

[superdave269]

 

[BMur]

Quality restoration

Hey Super Dave,
Very nice gun. It looks professionally restored to me. You are correct with your assessment of what should be finished what. However, the very dark blackish finish is typically found with a quality restoration. The front sight has also appears to have been changed. More close ups of the gun is needed.

Also, this is a "Long cylinder" 1 9/16th variation and would typically be the "Frontier Model" in 44 Winchester or 44/40 caliber. You have to check that closely. Please also provide the serial number range. It is possible that it could be a very late production 44 DA Russian but we need to know the serial number range to confirm.

The adjustment you mentioned on the grip frame is for the main spring. That is performed by the factory to adjust and tune the original spring. It is not for the owner to adjust. It should be left all the way screwed in, unless you intend to disassemble the gun.

So, first you have to determine the caliber before the forum can comment on loading data.


Murph

 

[Jim Watson]

S&W did not plate the hammer, trigger, top latch, trigger guard and extractor.

The screw in the front strap is the "strain screw". It retains the mainspring under tension and is not meant for adjustment.

I loaded a little .44 R for my No 3 NM and would not get close to 5.5 gr of Bullseye. 3.5 maybe. Most of mine got powders no longer available, and my notes on Unique are contradictory.
A somewhat compressed load of real black would be safest; new brass might not hold 23 gr without a good bit of compression.

ETA: If .44 Winchester 1873 (.44-40) the loads will be different. That is a big case and a light load of smokeless will rattle around and be inconsistent. It will hold a lot of black and give stout ballistics.

You don't have to put your BP gun in the bathtub. I started cleaning my BPCR with Mike Venturino's diluted Windex With Vinegar but now just dilute M-Pro 7. Oil with Ballistol if you can stand the smell. Ballistol is meant to be emulsified in water at 10% or so for cleaning, too.

 

[superdave269]

Thanks guys. I spend a lot of time on the colt SAA forum and honestly do not much about this gun thats why I asked for help. I had no idea about the front sight. Thats interesting. The serial number is 302. Just 50 away from John Westly Harding's famous gun. He sent me the factory letter so let me see if it shows caliber.

 

[superdave269]

 

[superdave269]

I should add that it looks restored to me but nicely done as I did not see dished out areas around the screws and the writing on top of the barrel is still strong.
Would a profile pic of the front sight help?

 

[Jim Watson]

I'd try to stick a .44-40 in the cylinder. A .44 R chamber will not accept it.

 

[superdave269]

I tried a 44 special and it suck out a 1/4 inch as expected. I tried a 44-40 and it dropped right in. Let me measure the cylinder.

 

[iby]

If that is the factory letter why all this banter about 44-40
There were none in 1881

 

[superdave269]

Cylinder length is 1.56
Width is 1.67

 

[iby]

The bluing and finish look good to me. the sight also.
More
pics would be good

 

[superdave269]

Thanks iby, that is the factory letter. Good point about no 44-40 made in 1881. I see this type thing with re-barreled colt SAAs often. After doing a quick search the front sight looks to be the correct shape but taller than the ones on line. Did they offer different sizes to tune in POI?

 

[BMur]

Error

The Factory letter is for another gun unfortunately.

This is a 44 Frontier model DA....The factory letter is for an early DA first model in 44 Russian....OPPS! Get it Iby???

The Frontier was manufactured in its own serial number range beginning with 1 to 15340. So, this is an error in evaluating this gun from the beginning.

AGAIN, it's a "FRONTIER 44 DA in 44 Winchester caliber"
So, put the brakes on fellas...You're going down the wrong road....The factory letter is not for this gun!!!!

So "ITS NOT" a DA RUSSIAN and it was NOT manufactured in 1881. In fact it was made years later. It's an "EARLY FRONTIER MODEL"....in 44WCF CALIBER.


The OP claims a 44/40 drops right in...that should be proof positive.


Murph

 

[iby]

If the cyl is 1.56 it must be 44-40
The person that ordered the letter mis-identified the model?

 

[BMur]

yep

If the cyl is 1.56 it must be 44-40
The person that ordered the letter mis-identified the model?

That's correct. The only other possibility is that the chambers have been drilled out? Very unlikely.....I'm seeing the long cylinder from the photo's.

Murph

 

[superdave269]

[/IMG]

This is getting very interesting to me. I understand how Dave's Dad could of submitted incorrect information on this gun when requesting the letter.
So please tell me one more time what exactly this is so I can pass the correct information on to my friend. Please state the 2 serial number ranges again. Remember most of my S&W are model like my model 28, 41, 52 etc.
Thank you.

 

[superdave269]

I just reread BMur's post and I think he explained it very nicely.
I guess what I need now is a manufacture date by the serial number. Sounds like it is not as old as we thought.
Thats why I go to the forums for help. I love being able to find truly knowledgeable people that are willing to share the correct information.

 

[BMur]

Quick reference

Super Dave,
Here is an old reference from Flaydermans. Don’t rely on the values. Those are outdated but the description is accurate.

Murph

 

[superdave269]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to help me.