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Have you ever had to draw your weapon for self defense?
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We are being cautioned about this use of the word, "weapon" here by two NRA certified instructors. These men were told by their NRA trainers to teach in their classes that we ought better to use the word "firearm" and never the word "weapon" as the word is understood to imply offensive aggression.
When Mas brings up things like this, he always quotes actual cases, usually ones in which he participated as an expert witness. He points out the emotional toll on the self-defender as he sees his reputation sullied, when his stupid joke is read out in the courtroom. He does NOT declare that any juror was swayed by the semantics alone, nor does he suggest that such semantic issues are decisive in the jury room.
Since there is a possibility of bringing him as an expert witness in my trial, may God forbid, it makes sense to do as he has advised! However this idea of never using the word "weapon" is NOT coming from him. Has anyone seen a case where this was brought up at trial?
The "Armed Attorneys", Richard D. Hayes II and Emily Taylor, have a YouTube called "A Disturbing Trend..." about how the fact of your getting additional firearms training is being used against you as evidence that you are just a Rambo looking for trouble. Here is the link:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vXeUUEDpvM
Kind Regards!
BrianD
Reread SouthNarc's comments about word choices again. Combat semantics in the court room (criminal and civil) is real, otherwise much of the carefully contrived verbiage in use of force instruction wouldn't exist.
While Mas agrees a lot of it is silly, a point he makes repeatedly is that one avoids things that may arise at trial to at least consume billable attorney hours to counter, if not sink your case. Also, not all use of force cases go to trial. Insurance carriers settle many cases out of court as it's cheaper, so there's not necessarily a case citation.
The thing about additional training is decades old. It's defendable. If you want to be a better driver, you take additional driving courses. Lawyers attend continuing legal education
While Mas agrees a lot of it is silly, a point he makes repeatedly is that one avoids things that may arise at trial to at least consume billable attorney hours to counter, if not sink your case. Also, not all use of force cases go to trial. Insurance carriers settle many cases out of court as it's cheaper, so there's not necessarily a case citation.
The thing about additional training is decades old. It's defendable. If you want to be a better driver, you take additional driving courses. Lawyers attend continuing legal education
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Hi Brian, Mas and I have been friends and colleagues for 31 years now. We know each other quite well and he has attended my coursework over those years.
I have no issue with an NRA instructor having a preference for the word firearm instead of weapon when they are doing a youth safety class, an Appleseed shoot or whatever.
But if the topic is the defensive application of a handgun and the same said instructor were to tell his students "Now we NEVER call this a WEAPON. WEAPONS are OFFENSIVE" that's simply ridiculous in my personal and professional opinion.
And I do have a professional opinion since I teach use of force for a living and have a couple of thousand hours in testimony between initial appearances, grand juries, suppression hearings, actual trial, depositions, two of my own shootings and three separate instances of being certified by the court as an expert witness, twice in state court and once in federal court.
I can't imagine being on the stand in a courtroom under direct examination by a prosecutor who asked me "Now Mr. Douglas when did you draw your weapon?", correcting him in front of a jury and testifying "Well sir I don't carry a weapon I carry a firearm".
I have watched a jury trial, on more than one occasion, turn on a dime over cute word play either by a witness, a prosecutor, or a defense attorney. You want to sink yourself with a jury? Play cute quibbling word games.
Words absolutely do matter.
But the quibble over the word weapon and firearm when the topic is shooting people is once again....ridiculous.
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It's really not that hard to understand.
With some objects, the deadly nature of the weapon is automatically assumed. Firearms are the most common deadly weapons per se, but different jurisdictions may list other weapons.
If a prosecutor charges unlawful carry of a deadly weapon or assault with a deadly weapon, he/she will not have to prove a firearm is a deadly weapon. He or she will have to prove by evidence of it's intended use in the charged incident that a golf club (or a rock or a tire iron, etc.) is a deadly weapon.
With some objects, the deadly nature of the weapon is automatically assumed. Firearms are the most common deadly weapons per se, but different jurisdictions may list other weapons.
If a prosecutor charges unlawful carry of a deadly weapon or assault with a deadly weapon, he/she will not have to prove a firearm is a deadly weapon. He or she will have to prove by evidence of it's intended use in the charged incident that a golf club (or a rock or a tire iron, etc.) is a deadly weapon.
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OP
I figured combat situations and bear attacks would be one thing, but carrying in public places. Downtown or indeed suburbia or wherever was what I mostly wanted to know for people who carry when they’re just going to the cinema or restaurant.
I’m getting into the Kuhnhausen book now. I’m wanting to fix up a beater!
For me, I love the item, but not its ultimate intended purpose.
I guess no one loves that though.
To me it’s the negative sell when I see ads for weapons. Guys talking about self defense etc.
That not what appeals to me.
I’m sold on the engineering and aesthetic. The Finishes. The History.
The target shooting is the cherry on top but the pie is the collection.
Never had to draw it, but I have had it in my hand in my pocket ready to draw a few times - just in case I needed to draw it.
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The last thing that’s on my mind when I come to the Blue Forum is using a gun in self defense.
I’m here because I like old guns the same way I like old watches.
I guess I don’t really have to explain my hobby because I’m already in the firearms and self defense training business.
YeshuaIsa53
Member
I legally harvested a hog and an alligator(with permit) with my 14-3 many moons ago.
I would like to think I could stop a person drawing a firearm before he could draw it.
Wish I had a round count put through paper from this gun.
We had a BBQ and keg with the best Brunswick Stew you ever laid eyes on. Friendship time. Those were some great friends, too.
I would like to think I could stop a person drawing a firearm before he could draw it.
Wish I had a round count put through paper from this gun.
We had a BBQ and keg with the best Brunswick Stew you ever laid eyes on. Friendship time. Those were some great friends, too.
SGT ROCK 11B
Member
Don't ask, don't tell.
The mission was to pick up a vent hood at a house I was working on, so I ran by there but the only parking was in the back of the nearby parking deck – a place I usually avoid, but I was just going to be a minute. Ran in, grabbed the vent hood (in a big cardboard box) and carrying it in my arms, went back to the parking deck. The deck sloped so the back of it was below grade and there is a set of stairs in the rear corner.
Coming into the deck, I noticed a young man, hoodie, sunglasses, who seemed to stroll casually into the deck behind me – not purposefully, like you would be when approaching your car. He had both hands in his hoodie. I am not usually over reactive, but something didn’t look right to me as I walked down the deck toward the rear. I can’t explain it any better than it just didn’t look right.
I said aloud, “oh, ****” as though I remembered something, spun around and walked the way I had come, passing him, then I turned again, now following him. I still wasn’t really convinced something odd was up and needed to get the vent hood task completed, but still liked it a whole lot better with him in front of me. He continued down the deck and went up the stairs.
After he disappeared, I decided I was just being paranoid, although the guy taking that route through the deck really didn’t make sense. “Nothing to it,” I thought to myself, “just one of those things.” I went to my car and glanced over at the stairs up to ground level, nobody there, all good – except for one thing. The guy wasn’t aware of it, but he cast his shadow on the wall of the stairway and was standing there, right above me.
“Holy ****!” I thought to myself, quietly set my box down, and pulled out my little Seecamp from its pocket holster. There I stood in the gloom beside my car, convinced he was going to come back down the stairs. “This is it. This is what you’ve been dreading all your life and this is it holy ****” I thought to myself, my mind racing.
I am sure it was less than a minute, but the guy’s shadow finally moved off. Maybe he was listening for the sound of my car door and was confused by the complete silence. I stood there for a while longer, put my tiny pistol away, stuffed that big box in the back seat and left.
Could have been something, could have been nothing. The Seecamp is certainly far from ideal for these circumstances, but I was happy to have anything in my hand.
Looking back on it, I realized turning into the guy I felt was following me was a perfect example of getting inside somebody’s OODA loop, but I was certainly not being deliberately clever but instead just blundered through the situation. Whatever it was, whatever was or was not going on, I haven’t been back inside that parking deck since.
Coming into the deck, I noticed a young man, hoodie, sunglasses, who seemed to stroll casually into the deck behind me – not purposefully, like you would be when approaching your car. He had both hands in his hoodie. I am not usually over reactive, but something didn’t look right to me as I walked down the deck toward the rear. I can’t explain it any better than it just didn’t look right.
I said aloud, “oh, ****” as though I remembered something, spun around and walked the way I had come, passing him, then I turned again, now following him. I still wasn’t really convinced something odd was up and needed to get the vent hood task completed, but still liked it a whole lot better with him in front of me. He continued down the deck and went up the stairs.
After he disappeared, I decided I was just being paranoid, although the guy taking that route through the deck really didn’t make sense. “Nothing to it,” I thought to myself, “just one of those things.” I went to my car and glanced over at the stairs up to ground level, nobody there, all good – except for one thing. The guy wasn’t aware of it, but he cast his shadow on the wall of the stairway and was standing there, right above me.
“Holy ****!” I thought to myself, quietly set my box down, and pulled out my little Seecamp from its pocket holster. There I stood in the gloom beside my car, convinced he was going to come back down the stairs. “This is it. This is what you’ve been dreading all your life and this is it holy ****” I thought to myself, my mind racing.
I am sure it was less than a minute, but the guy’s shadow finally moved off. Maybe he was listening for the sound of my car door and was confused by the complete silence. I stood there for a while longer, put my tiny pistol away, stuffed that big box in the back seat and left.
Could have been something, could have been nothing. The Seecamp is certainly far from ideal for these circumstances, but I was happy to have anything in my hand.
Looking back on it, I realized turning into the guy I felt was following me was a perfect example of getting inside somebody’s OODA loop, but I was certainly not being deliberately clever but instead just blundered through the situation. Whatever it was, whatever was or was not going on, I haven’t been back inside that parking deck since.
I was in law enforcement in east Tennessee for nearly twenty-four years. I had to pull that gun more times than I could hope to count.
Outside of policing I only pulled a gun one time, and that was in the parking lot of motel one night in the questionable part of Savannah, Georgia. The situation was resolved immediately, and I went to my room and went to sleep.
Outside of policing I only pulled a gun one time, and that was in the parking lot of motel one night in the questionable part of Savannah, Georgia. The situation was resolved immediately, and I went to my room and went to sleep.
BKLooney
Member
Once in the Greyhound bus station in Knoxville TN back in the early '80's. Had been waiting in that station for hours just minding my own business. My head has always been on a swivel and I'd already noticed these two guys hanging around, leaving and coming back, I knew they were going nowhere on a bus...
I went into the restroom, no one else was in there at the time. Anyway, I'm at the far end of a bank of urinals when I hear the door open, yup, there's my newfound friends.
I finish up and turn towards the exit, these guys have positioned themselves on either side of the door. The guy on the right says "dude just leave the bag and put what you have in your pockets next to it"...
I quickly drew my 2" model 19, the only thing that came out of my mouth was "move or die"...the way these guys left was a model for the Olympic tryouts...
I went into the restroom, no one else was in there at the time. Anyway, I'm at the far end of a bank of urinals when I hear the door open, yup, there's my newfound friends.
I finish up and turn towards the exit, these guys have positioned themselves on either side of the door. The guy on the right says "dude just leave the bag and put what you have in your pockets next to it"...
I quickly drew my 2" model 19, the only thing that came out of my mouth was "move or die"...the way these guys left was a model for the Olympic tryouts...
I tend to agree with you that using this word is harmless. Mas has a short list of these warnings which come from his courtroom experiences. Has any prosecutor ever cited the use of this word to demonstrate hostile intent?
I understand that in Canada that just such a statement has been used to persecute any man carrying a pocketknife.
It is conceivable that your words could be used to apply "red flag" laws against you.
"Your honor, he said that he always has a weapon with him, and that word, as you well know your honor, implies aggressive intent..."
This has not happened yet has it?
Kind and Best to You!
BrianD
Were you wearing black?
Why?
Every cop, big city or rural has used his/her weapon in defense of themselves, others or to apprehend dangerous offenders. And make no mistake I dare say every cop that didn't use deadly force has had occasions that they could have, many probably should have. Not every law enforcement officer out there is or was hunting for a Combat Cross.
Marshal Tom
Member
I drew my gun many times while in LE but never had to fire it. I was however in a gunfight while working a security job for a fancy resort located in Gateway Colorado on July 30th 2017. It was an active shooter situation where a gentleman was firing at passing cars and pointing his gun at passing vehicles etc. We received a call from the General Store owned by the resort of a shooter at the store.
Several of the employees were gassing up company vehicles at the end of their shift and ran into the store to shelter in place. I responded with another security officer who was new. I found that the shooter was up the road from the store.
The Mesa County Dispatch Center in Grand Junction had received several 911 calls on the active shooter.
I contacted the Dispatch Center, told them who I was and advised that I was going to see if I could located the shooter and stop him if I could since the SO was a long way away.
When I approached in my security vehicle, the guy ran behind his vehicle as I was giving him commands to get on the ground. He fired and put a .44magnum through the front of my vehicle, through the instrument panel and we found the slug on my seat when it was all over. He then ran around the building, exited the other side and got behind a large /cottonwood Tree. There was more that happened but I ended up pinning him down with my AR-15 for 48 minutes until the troops arrived on scene, keeping him from shooting anyone including me.He was charged with multiple felonies and got 11.5 yrs. He was out agian in 3 yrs.
Several of the employees were gassing up company vehicles at the end of their shift and ran into the store to shelter in place. I responded with another security officer who was new. I found that the shooter was up the road from the store.
The Mesa County Dispatch Center in Grand Junction had received several 911 calls on the active shooter.
I contacted the Dispatch Center, told them who I was and advised that I was going to see if I could located the shooter and stop him if I could since the SO was a long way away.
When I approached in my security vehicle, the guy ran behind his vehicle as I was giving him commands to get on the ground. He fired and put a .44magnum through the front of my vehicle, through the instrument panel and we found the slug on my seat when it was all over. He then ran around the building, exited the other side and got behind a large /cottonwood Tree. There was more that happened but I ended up pinning him down with my AR-15 for 48 minutes until the troops arrived on scene, keeping him from shooting anyone including me.He was charged with multiple felonies and got 11.5 yrs. He was out agian in 3 yrs.
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