Help Identify Engraved Tip-Up
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mmaher94087
Member
Model 1 1/2, New Model. Aka, Model 1 1/2, 2nd Model. It's a .32 Rimfire.
Welcome to the Forum. Your Model 1 1/2, 2nd Issue revolver in 32 Long Rimfire, and is very nice with what may be original factory engraving. At least the style is correct, but many were engraved by the distributor post-factory, so a detailed inspection would be necessary. More close-up pictures might help our engraving experts determine authenticity. Cannot tell for certain, but the trigger and hammer look like they have been plated?
If so, this might be an rare full-plate gun that has been identified as original factory work in the past, but also common with replated guns after non-factory engraving. That revolver would have shipped around 1873.
If so, this might be an rare full-plate gun that has been identified as original factory work in the past, but also common with replated guns after non-factory engraving. That revolver would have shipped around 1873.
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Wow that is nice!
mmaher94087
Member
I would be very surprised if that was NOT factory work. It's a $100 gamble but I'd take the chance. It's a very nice and above average example of a Model 1 1/2.
Engraved /finish
Definitely a deluxe engraving pattern and it looks very nice.
The gun was definitely refinished( nickel) at some point and the engraving was likely helped out before the refinish. You can see very deep cuts on the barrel/back strap and the circles are not concentric. This model gun was very often engraved by distributors offering different coverage based on price.
When we look at factory engraved guns what often stands out are the perfect Circles and flawless patterns.
Murph
Definitely a deluxe engraving pattern and it looks very nice.
The gun was definitely refinished( nickel) at some point and the engraving was likely helped out before the refinish. You can see very deep cuts on the barrel/back strap and the circles are not concentric. This model gun was very often engraved by distributors offering different coverage based on price.
When we look at factory engraved guns what often stands out are the perfect Circles and flawless patterns.
Murph
bcowern
Member
Murph,
Could you post a pic or two showing the perfect, concentric circles, and the flawless(?) patterns you mention?
Do you think the gun was engraved at the time of refinish?
Regards,
bcowern
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Factory work
Factory work has many common denominators.
An even tone
Concentric circles and patterns( perfectly drawn)
No obvious mistakes
Often it looks like a painting.
Photo 1 depics a very even tone throughout, perfect execution, no obvious mistakes in the engraving and notice also the cut is very even in depth?
More specifically mistakes are errors in depth of the cut(unevenness, out of round terminus, not perfectly drawn.)
Photo 2 &3 is the OP’s gun. First let me say I am not in any way trashing this gun! So many take offense. This is an honest appraisal. The gun was definitely period engraved and looks very nicely done.
Notice in photo 2&3 the cuts are not even. Deep then shallow and the terminus is not perfectly done. It has almost a cartoon look to it. Same with photo 3. This is typical of the so called New York engraved guns performed by apprentices.
Photo 4&5 is Gustave Young. Notice the perfect execution, perfect circle patterns and terminus. Also the cut is perfect. Very even depth.
That’s what I look for when evaluating the quality of gun engraving.
Some folks can’t tell the difference between a square and a rectangle. I can see the difference so I can see a double action Russian as compared to a DA Frontier. To me it’s obvious I don’t need to measure the cylinder but I guess some can’t see it.
Murph
Factory work has many common denominators.
An even tone
Concentric circles and patterns( perfectly drawn)
No obvious mistakes
Often it looks like a painting.
Photo 1 depics a very even tone throughout, perfect execution, no obvious mistakes in the engraving and notice also the cut is very even in depth?
More specifically mistakes are errors in depth of the cut(unevenness, out of round terminus, not perfectly drawn.)
Photo 2 &3 is the OP’s gun. First let me say I am not in any way trashing this gun! So many take offense. This is an honest appraisal. The gun was definitely period engraved and looks very nicely done.
Notice in photo 2&3 the cuts are not even. Deep then shallow and the terminus is not perfectly done. It has almost a cartoon look to it. Same with photo 3. This is typical of the so called New York engraved guns performed by apprentices.
Photo 4&5 is Gustave Young. Notice the perfect execution, perfect circle patterns and terminus. Also the cut is perfect. Very even depth.
That’s what I look for when evaluating the quality of gun engraving.
Some folks can’t tell the difference between a square and a rectangle. I can see the difference so I can see a double action Russian as compared to a DA Frontier. To me it’s obvious I don’t need to measure the cylinder but I guess some can’t see it.
Murph
Attachments
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deadin
US Veteran
Engraving
I think the most important concern from a collectors perspective is that “you” like the engraving.
I personally like all forms of engraving on antique guns.
When it gets personal is what I’m willing to pay for it.
That concept follows suit with all collectors. Just because it’s engraved doesn’t mean I’m going to pay top dollar for it. That’s the discipline for me personally. I have to feel good about the purchase. I’ll spend top dollar if I really like it.
Many sellers sing the same tune. “This is factory engraved” with absolutely no proof except their “50 years of experience”. I absolutely NEVER buy into that concept. It’s easy to find them on the internet.
Only a letter is absolute proof.
No letter, no proof.
However, we should be able to tell the difference between a MASTER ENGRAVER and an APPRENTICE.
There are contract engraved Antique guns that were MASTER ENGRAVED but won’t letter as factory work. So the collector is disappointed but the reality is the work is master engraved and you like it so? Who cares?
So no matter what your opinion is the real concept is you liking the artists work. A lot of collectors will share your appreciation so you’re not alone. They are great conversation pieces and you never get tired of looking at the work. I appreciate them the most when they are cased in a period wood walnut or mahogany case.
Now we’re talking.
Murph
I think the most important concern from a collectors perspective is that “you” like the engraving.
I personally like all forms of engraving on antique guns.
When it gets personal is what I’m willing to pay for it.
That concept follows suit with all collectors. Just because it’s engraved doesn’t mean I’m going to pay top dollar for it. That’s the discipline for me personally. I have to feel good about the purchase. I’ll spend top dollar if I really like it.
Many sellers sing the same tune. “This is factory engraved” with absolutely no proof except their “50 years of experience”. I absolutely NEVER buy into that concept. It’s easy to find them on the internet.
Only a letter is absolute proof.
No letter, no proof.
However, we should be able to tell the difference between a MASTER ENGRAVER and an APPRENTICE.
There are contract engraved Antique guns that were MASTER ENGRAVED but won’t letter as factory work. So the collector is disappointed but the reality is the work is master engraved and you like it so? Who cares?
So no matter what your opinion is the real concept is you liking the artists work. A lot of collectors will share your appreciation so you’re not alone. They are great conversation pieces and you never get tired of looking at the work. I appreciate them the most when they are cased in a period wood walnut or mahogany case.
Now we’re talking.
Murph
bcowern
Member
Many period engravers worked not only for the factories, but also for the distributors who sold the same make and model gun. L.D.Nimshke and Gustave Young come to mind. The engravers also worked for individuals.
Murph,
I agree 100% with your post 12.
Dean,
Please post some more pics of your wonderful Model 1 1/2.
Regards,
bcowern
Murph,
I agree 100% with your post 12.
Dean,
Please post some more pics of your wonderful Model 1 1/2.
Regards,
bcowern
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bcowern
Member
Murph,
This one's for you.
Regards
bcowern
This one's for you.
Regards
bcowern
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bcowern
Member
L.D.Nimshke. Unsigned as were most of his pistols. In fact signed is cause for supicition.
Regards
bcowern
Regards
bcowern
bcowern
Member
Hami 2323,
Your revolver looks like it could be engraved by the same engraver that engraved Dean’s revealver in Post #11.
I hope he will post some additional photos.
Regards,
bcowern
Your revolver looks like it could be engraved by the same engraver that engraved Dean’s revealver in Post #11.
I hope he will post some additional photos.
Regards,
bcowern
deadin
US Veteran
Finally found the photos of my engraved 1 1/2......
Nimshke's name came up (from a very advanced collector/dealer) in an earlier discussion of this gun. What is interesting about it is the frame is so much more elaborate than the barrel/cylinder. He speculated that possibly the master did the frame and an apprentice did the front-end????
I have a copy of The Steel Canvas and have found nearly all of the motifs on thr gun ion his book. Any way,more in the next post
Nimshke's name came up (from a very advanced collector/dealer) in an earlier discussion of this gun. What is interesting about it is the frame is so much more elaborate than the barrel/cylinder. He speculated that possibly the master did the frame and an apprentice did the front-end????
I have a copy of The Steel Canvas and have found nearly all of the motifs on thr gun ion his book. Any way,more in the next post
Attachments
deadin
US Veteran
bcowern
Member
Dean,
Thanks for the additional pics.
I agree your gun definitely looks to be the work of Nimshke. The progression marks used in the cutting of the scrolls is definitive, but are hard to see in the photos.
I have yet to see any reference stating Nimske used an apprentice to finish engraving any guns that he worked on, or even had an apprentice. Perhaps the lesser embellishment on the cylinder and barrel was to keep the cost down for the customer, or just a whim.
I think STEEL CANVAS by R. L. Wilson is a terrible book to study engraving as the pics are mostly too small to show any detail.
Regards,
bcowern
Thanks for the additional pics.
I agree your gun definitely looks to be the work of Nimshke. The progression marks used in the cutting of the scrolls is definitive, but are hard to see in the photos.
I have yet to see any reference stating Nimske used an apprentice to finish engraving any guns that he worked on, or even had an apprentice. Perhaps the lesser embellishment on the cylinder and barrel was to keep the cost down for the customer, or just a whim.
I think STEEL CANVAS by R. L. Wilson is a terrible book to study engraving as the pics are mostly too small to show any detail.
Regards,
bcowern
