Help! Is it Me or the Gun (Part 2) 4516-2

[loeman]

A couple of weeks ago I posted a thread asking for advice on how to help me shoot better with my much neglected 4516-2. As I wrote earlier, I'm a decent shooter with my revolvers and semis but have never been happy shooting my 4516-2 that I bought new in 1996. So for most of the 17 years I've had it, it has languished in my safe. The groups were pretty tight but they were consistently high and right. So I asked you for advice. Several of you advised to first change the stocks. So I took off the pretty Hogue wood stocks and put the original OEM factory grips back on.

Wow, big improvement right away at my first range session since replacing the stocks to factory OEM. My groups are now decently centered but about 3 to 4 inches low. I'll post some pics of three of my groups that are typical of my all my groups in this session. So here are my new questions. I will very much appreciate any that you care to answer.

1. Do you think my grip or my trigger pull is responsible for my groups?
2. If so what would you suggest I do to get better (I know practice will help)?
3. Is there an aftermarket lower front sight available for the 4516?

Here is a pic of the gun and three of my groups shot at 10 yards. The targets are 7.5 inches by 5.5 inches in size.

 

[C/O]

Shoot it some more, you may be anticipating the shot. Have a friend load one or two inert rounds into your mag (without you knowing the order), when you fire the gun see if your jerking when you come to the inert.

Have a buddy shoot it see if it still hits low. If not then it's you. Shoot it from a rest to see how it does. I'd try and eliminate the human equation before spending money on changing parts that may not need to be changed.

If all that shows to be ok, and you can't find a smaller front sight, you can always file the front sight down some and hit it with some cold blue.

 

[Catshooter]

Tough to tell from that pic of the pistol, but that front sight looks like it came off of a 39 series gun. Looks quite a bit too short to me.


Cat

 

[Palinvan]

I might be wrong but wouldnt a short front sight make your groups higher on target?

sent from my Galaxy S3, superior to the iPhone.

 

[Denver Dick]

Loeman:

I still maintain that the short grip 4516 series can be challenging to shoot. It looks like you might be tightening up your grip while pulling the trigger. This can lead to pulling the muzzle down right before the release of the hammer. This might be in anticipation of the muzzle flip that the small powerful pistol tends to exhibit when firing. FWIW, don't over grip the piece as you fire it, try keeping your eye and concentration on maintaining exact sight alignment while pulling the trigger. Don't let the muzzle drop. Try not to blink, actually watch the thing fire, easier said than done.

P.S. - I almost gave up when I began shooting my 4516-1, but it seemed to all come together around the fourth trip to the range. Good luck.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

4516-2

Were you using the same ammo when it was shooting high before but low now? If you change your front sight (it does look shorter than my 4516-1) you'll still have issues if you change ammo. I'd try to find a load that hits where you want instead or change your hold (higher) on the bullseye.

 

[Gunhacker]

Loeman:

I still maintain that the short grip 4516 series can be challenging to shoot. It looks like you might be tightening up your grip while pulling the trigger. This can lead to pulling the muzzle down right before the release of the hammer. This might be in anticipation of the muzzle flip that the small powerful pistol tends to exhibit when firing. FWIW, don't over grip the piece as you fire it, try keeping your eye and concentration on maintaining exact sight alignment while pulling the trigger. Don't let the muzzle drop. Try not to blink, actually watch the thing fire, easier said than done.

P.S. - I almost gave up when I began shooting my 4516-1, but it seemed to all come together around the fourth trip to the range. Good luck.

Sounds like my initial experience too when I first got my 4516-1. This got me to thinking about my first experience with shooting a short barrelled revolver, when all I previously shot was 6" and longer.

It was a Ruger Speed-Six with a 2-3/4" barrel, and I had one heck of a time getting on paper with it, so much so, that I sold it off in frustration after having it for less than a month.

Fast forward 20 yrs later, and in a fit of nostalgia, I bought another Speed-Six a few years ago. I took it to the range expecting to pick up where I left off, trying to hit the broad side of the barn with it, and quite the opposite occurred... I was floored.

My theory is my first encounter was a result of never having shot a handgun with such a short sight radius, and I had no idea about the added difficulties inherent with that.

Time and experience over the years with other snub guns (and guidance from a kindly old range master), taught me how to handle shooting them, but I never really realized how much so until I got my hands on that Speed-Six again, and did dramatically better with it the second time around.

Could be you're experiencing the same thing with the 4516-1, lower your expectations for yourself for the time being and don't doubt yourself, or the gun (yet). Put in more range time, and see what that starts to do in making things begin to click for you.

One quick question... what's the bullet weight of the ammo you used?

 

[loeman]

Thank You!

Hey guys,
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. I really appreciate it. The title of my thread should be "It's Me, Not the Gun". And I'm committed to becoming a better shooter with a fine gun.

I forgot to tell you that I put a mag full through the gun on the bench and my group was near perfect. It's me. I'm using Winchester, 230 gr, FMJ (It's all I can get at Walmart). Cat, you asked about the sight. It's what came on the gun and I bought it new in 1998. Denver Dick and Gunhacker, thanks for your words and encouragement. I totally agree that shooting a short barreled gun can be a challenge and it takes focus, practice and time to master it. I'm certainly not going to give up as I made a resolution to learn to become a good/decent shooter with this gun. I'm off to the range this morning and I'll post my results here later today.

 

[Doug M.]

Do you have access to a decent instructor who can watch and critique? I think the theories about your shooting style being the issue are sound.

 

[old&slow]

Don't know if it will help.
But, a friend has a 5906 and was never happy with the way it shot , the way he shot it, etc.
Changed the grips and he said things got better.
I think he went from a flat back strap to a arc back strap.

 

[Gunhacker]

What I had to do with the snub guns was UNLEARN the habits and techniques I developed from mainly shooting the longer barrel guns.

You practice and practice to where is becomes 2nd nature with how you shoot those guns then replace what's familiar with a "sawed off runt".

You go out to the range, use the same techniques, without much thought, due to all of the previous practicing, and the equation no longer works... Been there, done that.

The shorter sight radius multiplies any mis-alignment of the front/rear sight picture.

The rear sight notch on many fixed sight revolvers are so miniscule, that sometimes it's almost impossible to even use them... and that's one of the things that the range master taught me, how to shoot by relying more on front sight blade to aim, and shoot it like a shotgun, which only has a front sight to begin with.

Fortunately the 4516-1 has the excellent Novak Lo-Mount fixed sights, so that's much less of a problem. It looks like you have half of the battle won, your shot grouping is decently center target... just a bit too low, easy to do with that "stubby" front sight.

Really pay close attention to the front sight and make a mental note (checklist) of your sight picture, grip, stance. Experiment... don't be reluctant to try a "what if" to see if that works... what's the worse thing that can happen at the range?

On one gun I had, I just gave up and said to myself "just have to aim for the head and know the shots will go low and hit center chest... it works, don't worry...be happy" Of course, I didn't come to that conclusion until I made sure I was consistently hitting where I wanted by doing that.

Each time you finally get on target the way you want, try to go through your mental checklist and use it for the next shot... you're reprogramming yourself for that particular gun. Scientific studies have shown that it takes 2 weeks of doing something consistently on a daily basis to change an old habit or acquire a new one (one reason why so many quickie diets fails)... so changing/developing a shooting habit/technique takes time and work.

Good shooting.

 

[BruceB]

There are some that believe that the 3 dot type of sights are meant to have the front sight dot superimposed over what you're trying to hit. If that is indeed the case, and the sights are engineered for that, it may be the cause of your problem.

To an old target shooter used to the 6 o'clock hold, this makes the gun appear to shoot low if you put the bottom of that orange zone on top of the front sight.

I find that adding a very small dot or black spot on the target as a very small aiming point, the groups get much tighter. Trying to get your front sight to the exact same position in a large field of color would seem to be impossible.

I would put some aiming dots on the target with some vertical separation, like the bottom, middle and top of your center orange field, and try careful aiming at each of them. You may find that holding on the top dot with a 6 o'clock hold places the shots well inside the center area. Then take a close look at where that front sight dot is while the top dot is the lollipop on top of your front sight.

Don't discount the grip thing either. With my hands, I use a straight-back grip on the doublestacks, like the 5906, but I have to use an arched backstrap on the single stack 45xx series to get the same natural pointing results.

 

[Denver Dick]

Loeman:

Some very good points made here by the posters. I'll tell you what I do as far as sighting goes. I get the top of the front sight perfectly even with the top of the rear sight. I then aim dead center, i.e., if I have a 3" red circle in the center of the target, I see the top 1 1/2" of the 3" circle above my front sight. As my dad use to say, "Cut the center of the target with them sights, boy."

A 6 o'clock hold doesn't really work with a pistol. JMHO, FWIW.

 

[loeman]

Thanks Again!

You guys are fantastic! Using some previous days suggestions and comments I went to the range yesterday and put 50 rounds through my 4516. Using the same target as posted above, I was able to get my groups about two inches higher and still nicely centered. Most of my shots were either in the black ring or just outside. This is marked improvement. Now I can't wait to try your new suggestions. I'm actually making a little notebook of points you guys have made. I really appreciate it.

I've always been somewhat of a lone wolf when it comes to shooting. Even though I've been regularly shooting handguns since I bought my Security Six in 1977, I've never had two seconds of expert or professional help/advice other than what they give me in my CCW qualification classes. Never thought I needed it until the 4516-2 came along. Boy was I wrong. Wish my daddy had told me to "Cut the center of the target boy". I'll post a part three of this story in a couple of weeks after I've had at least three more trips to the range to put into practice what I've learned here.

 

[Big Cholla]

loeman: I taught pistol shooting for 20 years. IMHO, you need to:

Choose either the Isosceles position or the Weaver position and stick with it.

Place your feet about shoulder width apart. Wear laceup boots.

Put about 60% of your weight on the balls of your feet.

Hunch your body in a forward "C" shape.

Bring the gun sights up to your eye and not your head down to the gun sights.

Grip the gun with strong hand and with the gun seated 'down' into the hand. Grip strongly but not so much as to tremble while using the firing grip.

Wrap the off hand around the strong hand. This is important and just might be the solution to your problem: push up with the off hand until the index finger makes strong contact with the underside of the trigger guard. Hold that pressure constant while shooting.

Tighten up your chest muscles. Push forward with your strong arm and shoulder. Pull back with your off arm and shoulder.

As stated, level the sights top to top and at the 3oc to 9oc position on the target.

Press the trigger, don't 'pull' the trigger. Dry fire with a coin balanced on top of the handgun until you can press the trigger without the coin falling off.

After the shot is fired slowly allow the trigger finger to move outward just to the point the trigger resets. Do not lift the trigger finger from the trigger surface under any circumstances.

Use your master eye.

Practice all the above until it is so embedded in muscle memory it will not feel right to shoot any other way.

Practice perfectly. Stop and start over if any of the above is not in place before firing the shot.

Stop practice shooting before you get fatigued.

If possible purchase the identical firearm in .22LR and do 50% of your practice with that.

An aside: IMHO, it is a mistake to NOT get the help of an experienced pistol coach. ..................... Big Cholla

 

[nocents]

another "thank-you" to all the responders to the OP......I have learned so much myself.....

 

[Gunhacker]

Loeman... I'm not an expert or professional, just a grizzled old fart that's been pulling the trigger on things that go bang for 41 years (ugh, where did all that time go). I started off in 1973 at age 19 by shooting my cousin's Security-Six and then 2 years later bought my first handgun and S&W, a M28-4.

Fortunately, I started shooting when and where the public ranges were all outdoor, and the shooting line and range house was manned by benevolent "old" range masters, who were always willing to help a new fella out.

By the time I started my stint as a LEO, I was ahead of the game thanks to them, as they were either ex-military or retired LEO's themselves.

I miss the atmosphere of those "old school" ranges, all of them where I'm at have gone the route of the Drive-in movie, replaced by something sterile... indoor ranges with individual shooting lanes, and manned by either unknowledgeable or grumpy counter people.

 

[Big Cholla]

loeman: I just thought of another good practice technique that can really help; get some very good snap caps in your caliber and load your magazine with alternate live round and then a snap cap. Yes, you will quickly know which is coming up, but watch what you do with the handgun each time you pull the trigger on a snap cap. Then get someone to load your magazines with random live rounds and snap caps. You will quickly figure out if you are doing something wrong like 'milking' the gun or 'hunching' or rushing the trigger press or etc. AND, while shooting, don't look at the target immediately after each and every shot to see where it went. That will ruin your 'follow thru'. ............ Big Cholla

 

[SW CQB 45]

Many years ago.....at the old real Houston Gun Show at the no longer AstroHall.....

I bought a old stock new in the box 4516-2. The box had a layer of dust and the mag release spring had rusted snapped in two when I depressed it.

Anyway......this gun out of the box shot very low. I don't recall the exact numbers but if I had to guess close to 6-8 inches at 15 plus yards.

I sent it back to SW with a enclosed check for a smoother duty action.

The gun was returned with an action job and the correct front sight height and shot very nice. The check I had enclosed was never deposited.

I traded the gun for a DPA5906.

I guess what I am saying.....might need a correct height front sight.

 

[Catshooter]

Just because your '16 is wearing the sights it came with from factory doesn't mean they are correct. Factories make mistakes too.

Although it sounds as if it is just you from your post. Good for you. Don't give up on it; they're great guns.


Cat