Help Me Save My Son

[2hawk]

I guess it's time to trot this out again, take a moment to read it please...

I ran across this excellent article awhile back, and rather than try to reprint the whole thing here, I'll just link to the thread:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge...gunner.html?highlight=inside+mind+anti-gunner

It is an enlightened approach to deal with those that would destroy our 2A.

 

[PatriotX]

It's interesting to note that those who bash education and educational institutions often have the least amount of experience with either.

Ignorant and proud of it is no way to go through life.

 

[SmokeStack Lightning]

I hope you can respond to this and assist me …to save my son. I apologize in advance if you think this is too long. Despite my pro-Second Amendment perspectives over my lifetime (I'm in my mid-60's), my adult son has not supported my views. I have a number of firearms, I've attended some self-defense training courses, and I practice; moreover, my family has been the victim of crime; but yet my son does not support my views about the Second Amendment, firearms ownership, and training. I can only assume that private school, and undergrad and post-grad universities contributed to his dismissal of and disdain for firearms and firearm owners, as have his like-minded in-laws, friends and the mainstream media which targets his demographic. That and the fact that he lives in California. Now that my son has two small children, he seems to be (but I'm not sure) reconsidering my pro-2A comments and the seeds I've planted in his mind regarding his responsibility to defend his family. He's been challenging me in discussion lately (mostly email, since we live a long distance away - Oregon), and this is a good thing because he seems to be listening, if not yet agreeing, and there is an opportunity to widen the door of understanding. In the context of this, he and his sphere have been using Facebook (which I do not use; and if I did, he would not allow me to be his "Friend" to read their postings). I now see a greater opportunity to influence not only him, but others in his social media universe when he posts my comments to him – which he hinted at doing.

Regarding crime and firearms-related statistics that have come up in conversations among his social peers, I'm struggling to keep up with the recent liberal, ant-gun media's "facts" he shoots at me when I know they are not facts; but rather, distortions at best and outright lies at worst. I've followed John Lott's work somewhat over the years, particularly after reviews similar to this:
Damn Lies -- or Statistics.

I said to my son that John Lott is and has been the expert, and expert witness, and there has been a coordinated effort to attempt to discredit him by putting self-serving spin on his research. But when he and others later prove that the discreditors were wrong and had even lied, it doesn't matter, the damage had already been done – the confusion and doubt in the uninformed public had been created. The liars win again, because a lie often repeated becomes truth, or at a minimum, maybe just doubt. And if it's spread through the mainstream media, doubt is all that the liars need.

Today my son challenged me to respond to this:

Instead of arguing about guns on Twitter, Neil deGrasse Tyson just laid out the numbers.

I'm unsure now how to respond; but I cannot be sarcastic or dismissive as is the "other side" (and sometimes as we are when we're frustrated with them). Any comments regarding these new "facts" by the "world famous scientist, Neil deGrasse Tyson"?

Thank you in advance.

My brother spent 4 years as a Marine in Viet Nam.

He never saw combat, just the aftermath.

He was known as a "POG".

He joined up on his own accord, not drafted.

While we grew up together, he was always be the one that brought home the wild game because he was a better shot than me.

Since he was a Marine, I assumed that when I bought my M&P 15, he'd like to inspect and handle it for "old time's sake" if nothing else.

He wouldn't even look at it, let alone handle it.

He just said, "I have no desire to handle it, I don't like guns".

His answer was good enough for me, so I locked it back up and that's been the last of it.

No one can influence another's convictions and he's my brother.

What does bug me though, is when my Pop passed in 2010 my brother inherited his firearms since he was the first born, and I know he isn't caring for them.

He owns no firearm cleaning tools and won't bring them to me so I could provide them the love and care they deserve.

 

[SW MP15]

They want to live in a 5 story warehouse with metal lined walls. They think our trucks are stupid, and think we should drive lil hybrid cars. They've never had to punch a time clock. They have been sheltered all their life. They think reality is a video game. They hate guns, they dislike the police because they are considered "The Man"! They dislike sports or sporting events (such as football)! They drink strange flavored lite beer. Their day of ruffing it is, sitting in a Star Bucks and not getting good service. There is no gender in their world. No male or females. They've never had to worry about their lights being cut off, due to lack of payment. Or feeding their family the next week. 60% of them work from home. And if their internet is shut down a day, and if Twitter or instagram is down, it's a major catastrophe. They have never been in a fist fight and feared for their life. They've never had their car or house broken into. They have never lost a good friend in a senseless act of violence.

And your trying to explain why you would need or want a Gun for personal or your families protection?

GOOD LUCK!!

 

[Comrad]

He wouldn't allow you to be a friend on Facebook if you became a member? There's a bigger problem than views on the second amendment. Sorry to be blunt but you asked.

 

[BC38]

The truth only appears to be far out to those suffering from cognitive dissonance.

Every study I have ever read on the impact of university on students belief systems descries the systematic liberalization of college students that increases each year they attend. That is not far out it is reality. There are any number of studies that demonstrate this and they are pretty universal in their findings.

Cognitive dissonance is about as basic as it gets to anyone familiar with the psychology of human beings and what impact their though processes. It is not some far out theory. It is taught at these very universities and colleges under discussion in their psychology departments.

The social pressure to belong that young people, even college age feel is not far out. It is the basis of gang activity, it is the single most significant influence in young people's lives in high school, and often in college. As a student ages this social pressure increases in high school, and when they are away at university among strangers. Most people need to feel that they belong, and this is a powerful basic human need.

The liberal slant of universities is not far out. It is a fact. From the president down to the professors, universities are bastions of liberalism. It is often a requirement to being hired for such a position.

Given this even if there is no guiding hand the elements for brainwashing are nicely in place and the brainwashing takes place. Even if there is no planned systematic conspiracy at work the elements for brainwashing are all in place. Perhaps they are not ready to learn about how the system got this way, as to many who have been "influenced" by political correctness, that could at first seem far out. However, knowing the above factual information and understanding how cognitive dissonance works is not far out at all.

Reading the bias in newspaper reporting of gun activity requires only a clear thought process to see how slanted this is from coast to coast.

So I fail to see anything far out in my views.

I am one who generally argues forcefully against the conspiracy theories, but in this case I'm afraid I have to agree with finesse_r. It isn't so much a conspiracy, as it is a closed, hot-house, almost incestuous environment. Schools of higher education are generally in urban areas and steeped in liberalism. This results in so any of the people there traveling in exclusively liberal circles and spending all their time with others of the same liberal mindset to the point that their attitudes become ingrained and reinforced through repetition. They so seldom interact with anyone who is NOT of a liberal mindset that they are convinced that only a small, ignorant minority hold conservative views.

It's interesting to note that those who bash education and educational institutions often have the least amount of experience with either.

Ignorant and proud of it is no way to go through life.

WHOA! Hold on a minute there pard! I've earned three sets of "letters" after my name, and only finished earning the last set less than 15 years ago. I have PLENTY of experience with academia and higher education, and it isn't all a bunch of out-dated ancient history either.

I don't "bash" higher education, and really haven't seen anyone else in this thread do so either. I think I have a pretty clear-eyed view of the reality on college campuses, and I agree 100% with finesse_r's assessment. Even though the things he says are unpopular in some circles, that doesn't make them "bashing".

FWIW, my primary education is in the field of engineering. Now as you may (or may not) know, engineers are generally a pretty conservative bunch. Everything they do is based in science and physical reality, so there aren't too many who are of a radically liberal bent. They are oriented toward the rational and logical - not the emotional.

BUT, even in an engineering ONLY school - like the one where I got my main credentials - there is still a pretty strong streak of liberalism amongst the tenured professors. Especially those whose entire career has been in education, and those who do not teach the "hard" sciences. Interestingly enough this is less true of those who have spent a good portion of their career working in industry rather than academia. There are also a lot fewer people teaching the hard sciences who are of a liberal mindset.

Not bashing liberalism either. There are other forms of intelligence besides that which dominates the math and science arenas, and they are no less important or valid. I'm just making the observation that, in my experience, those who are oriented towards mathematics and sciences are more commonly conservative.

All that to say, that in my years on college campuses spanning the period from 1989 to 2002, I saw a very strong streak of liberalism in the world of higher education. Just as finesse_r stated. That has been my experience, FWIW.

 

[Rastoff]

Where does he live in CA? If he's anywhere near me, I'd be happy to run him through a NRA Basic Pistol or Shotgun class for free. There is no better teacher than experience. Get him out shooting and maybe we can alter his perspective.

I'll provide the guns and ammo for the course as well.

 

[joeintexas]

Actually most people won't change their views and opinions until something dramatic happens directly to them. My guess is every person on the floor in California when the shooting started was wishing they had a gun of any kind. Most probably an hour earlier were voting for more gun control. Sometimes it's just easier to live in a perfect make believe world. Sometimes, sadly, reality sucks. I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Practical]

People make decisions based on what they believe and what the people around them believe. IF all his associations are anti-gun people tend to realign their beliefs and values to align with them. It is subconscious and probably an evolved survival mechanism to not be out of step with the tribe.

I recommend moving him in baby steps. Encourage him by reminding him about the fun of shooting and that 99% of it is hobby which trains you for the 1% chance it might be useful for selfdefense.

IF he shoots with you again bring only fun guns. 22, shotguns and revolvers.

Encourage him to get some fun guns a 22, a decent target revolver/pistol and 22 and maybe a good revolver. Get him a 686Plus as gift after he gets his fun 22s.

LEAVE HIM alone except when visiting see if he will take you out with his fun guns and just enjoy the time together and don't preach.

Preaching never works. Let him have fun again.

 

[the ringo kid]

I hope you can respond to this and assist me …to save my son. I apologize in advance if you think this is too long. Despite my pro-Second Amendment perspectives over my lifetime (I'm in my mid-60's), my adult son has not supported my views. I have a number of firearms, I've attended some self-defense training courses, and I practice; moreover, my family has been the victim of crime; but yet my son does not support my views about the Second Amendment, firearms ownership, and training. I can only assume that private school, and undergrad and post-grad universities contributed to his dismissal of and disdain for firearms and firearm owners, as have his like-minded in-laws, friends and the mainstream media which targets his demographic. That and the fact that he lives in California. Now that my son has two small children, he seems to be (but I'm not sure) reconsidering my pro-2A comments and the seeds I've planted in his mind regarding his responsibility to defend his family. He's been challenging me in discussion lately (mostly email, since we live a long distance away - Oregon), and this is a good thing because he seems to be listening, if not yet agreeing, and there is an opportunity to widen the door of understanding. In the context of this, he and his sphere have been using Facebook (which I do not use; and if I did, he would not allow me to be his "Friend" to read their postings). I now see a greater opportunity to influence not only him, but others in his social media universe when he posts my comments to him – which he hinted at doing.

Regarding crime and firearms-related statistics that have come up in conversations among his social peers, I'm struggling to keep up with the recent liberal, ant-gun media's "facts" he shoots at me when I know they are not facts; but rather, distortions at best and outright lies at worst. I've followed John Lott's work somewhat over the years, particularly after reviews similar to this:
Damn Lies -- or Statistics.

I said to my son that John Lott is and has been the expert, and expert witness, and there has been a coordinated effort to attempt to discredit him by putting self-serving spin on his research. But when he and others later prove that the discreditors were wrong and had even lied, it doesn't matter, the damage had already been done – the confusion and doubt in the uninformed public had been created. The liars win again, because a lie often repeated becomes truth, or at a minimum, maybe just doubt. And if it's spread through the mainstream media, doubt is all that the liars need.

Today my son challenged me to respond to this:

Instead of arguing about guns on Twitter, Neil deGrasse Tyson just laid out the numbers.

I'm unsure now how to respond; but I cannot be sarcastic or dismissive as is the "other side" (and sometimes as we are when we're frustrated with them). Any comments regarding these new "facts" by the "world famous scientist, Neil deGrasse Tyson"?

Thank you in advance.

All I can say, is don't ''give up the ship'' kinda thing. Adults need to learn to think to--instead of blindly charging into machine-gun fire like fanatics. I am slowly changing the mind of one lemming here logically. He's enjoyed the trips we have made to the range since July, and loves blowing the targets to smithereens.

Keep chipping away at your son like the antis keep doing to the 2nd. Being he's an adult and mentioned here already to let him go his own way, I disagree to a bit. Reason being, is I'll bet you my last buck, that while in college, the lemming professors did their beset to brainwash him. Their brainwashing needs to be countered.

 

[the ringo kid]

It's interesting how you appear to lay the blame for the differences between you two at the feet of all the outside influences in your son's life.

Have you thought for a moment that your adult son may simply have a different opinion about certain things than you do ?

Ii think Big Cholla has said it best. Looks like the ops son, been brainwashed by his anti-gun professors. What the Ops son doesn't know ain't his fault, nor the op himself. I thank God, that all my great nephews and nieces, are being trained to think for themselves, are being raised with guns and being taught how to use them and good gun sense. Last time I was on the range with them, they were doing pretty darn good. I don't impress easily, but I was impressed.

I have four great nieces, two gr nephews. Two are too young to handle guns, the rest do very well. Soon I aim to ''graduate'' two of them, to the use of my Walther P-38.

 

[the ringo kid]

Hmmm....Reading and re-reading your first sentence UGlide, what do you want to save your son from? A view point different than yours?

Personally, my daughters sure don't think or act like I did, or do. And that's ok. We've learned to accept each other as we are. How they've chosen to live their lives, really doesn't affect how I live mine.

Long ago, I learned not to live my life thru my children.


WuzzFuzz

I think he simply wants to 'save' his son from the one-sided education he got from the ward churchills of the country.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Ii think Big Cholla has said it best. Looks like the ops son, been brainwashed by his anti-gun professors. What the OOS son doesn't know ain't his fault, nor the op himself. I thank God, that all my great nephews and nieces, are being trained to think for themselves, are being raised with guns and being taught how to use them and good gun sense. Last time I was on the range with them, they were doing pretty darn good. I don't impress easily, but I was impressed.

Well that's just it.... Ya got em for 18 years (some even longer). If ya can't get the message through in 18 years while they're living at home, my guess is that sending a pro-gun e-mail to the son with advice from the Net isn't going to yield much.

18 years... it goes fast. Get it done right.

 

[the ringo kid]

It's interesting to note that those who bash education and educational institutions often have the least amount of experience with either.

Ignorant and proud of it is no way to go through life.

BS and you know it. First, don't lump all of us into the same group. I lived in Houston longer than I wanted, and was force-fed the lib BS daily. Then I moved to Austin, was among people all the time. The u,t. students are mostly brainwashed by their anti-American lib professors. I lived among them and saw their hatred for the USA, the Constitution ,the 2nd Amendment especially, and anyone who dared to disagree with their upside down mentality. You do? your automatically a racist or some-kind of phob. I'm not a racist and certainly not a phob.

You sir, can't speak for everyone who disagrees with you as you have not seen things through their eyes or heard things first-hand, through their ears! Its conservatively estimated that at least 85 - 90% of all educators, are not conservative.

 

[the ringo kid]

Well that's just it.... Ya got em for 18 years (some even longer). If ya can't get the message through in 18 years while they're living at home, my guess is that sending a pro-gun e-mail to the son with advice from the Net isn't going to yield much.

18 years... it goes fast. Get it done right.

I fully agree and thank my lucky stars for the things my dad taught me starting early.

 

[Jessie]

This may have been mentioned, but if not, have your son ask Ol' Neil if he's checked the numbers of people saved by firearms.
That's a sobering but hard to find number.
But heck, he's a scientist and they're known to dig for the truth.

 

[PatriotX]

BS and you know it. First, don't lump all of us into the same group...

Please note the choice of words used - "often," rather than "all."


My personal experience with post-secondary education was one of acquiring skillsets, rather than indoctrination. I had enough of that growing up in a Socialist Democrat country, where as an American, I was the enemy.

Critical independent thinking was encouraged over blind allegiance to ANY particular political bent at the institutions I attended.

To pretend that the reverse-snobbery toward education (and often the educated) on forums such as these doesn't exist is a bit silly, IMO.

 

[vytoland]

we all have opinions, likes and favorites............dont try to "save" those who have a different point of view...............

 

[Jessie]

Please note the choice of words used - "often," rather than "all."


My personal experience with post-secondary education was one of acquiring skillsets, rather than indoctrination. I had enough of that growing up in a Socialist Democrat country, where as an American, I was the enemy.

Critical independent thinking was encouraged over blind allegiance to ANY particular political bent at the institutions I attended.

To pretend that the reverse-snobbery toward education (and often the educated) on forums such as these doesn't exist is a bit silly, IMO.

It sounds as if that socialist democratic education took root.
I say that because anyone who disagrees is apparently a snob.

 

[otisrush]

My perspective on those numbers is similar to BC38's.

They're mixing "those killed by others" (i.e. terrorist attacks, murders) with those in total killed by guns. As was stated - over half of gun deaths are suicides. (My knowledge of the numbers: ~32,000 killed by guns annually. About 12,000 of those 32,000 are people killed by someone else pulling the trigger....i.e. murders.)

I looked up some data just this weekend: According to some website that tracks mass shootings, about 450 people have died in the US this year from mass shootings. Over 400 have been shot and killed this year IN CHICAGO ALONE. There is all this heat and discontent about mass shootings, but where are people outraged about urban violence?

This is my primary point to my friends: If our goal is reduce deaths from guns the priority is EXTREMELY clear: Suicide. We must be willing to talk about it. We must be willing to address it. I'm not saying the 450 who die from mass shootings aren't important. But if someone points to that as "the clear problem" my response is "You clearly don't understand the numbers."

And as an aside: Want to compare the 12,000 killed by guns at the hands of others with the equivalent on the smoking side? That would be looking at deaths from secondhand smoke: Over 50,000. *Four times* as many people are killed by others with cigarettes as are killed by others with guns. Where is the outrage over that?

And lastly: Cigarettes IN TOTAL kill over *400,000* each year. Where is the concern for life there?

As gun owners I think we have a moral obligation to try and reduce the number of people killed by guns. Our republic is designed to fight for those who can't. We should be standing up to reduce the killing of people by guns. People say mainstream Christians need to speak out against extremist Christians. And mainstream Muslims must speak out against Muslim extremism. Well - I believe gun owners need to decry people being killed inappropriately. I don't accept that that is the "price of freedom". But also, if people come to me and talk about how terrible it is, I say "Great. Let's REALLY talk about how terrible it is."

OR

 

[keith44spl]

It's quite simple,

It's not what's on a man's hip...It's what's in his heart that counts.

A man's duty is to protect his family....A man guards his own
to the last ditch....Use the right tool for that job.

Those without the means to defend their own, at the last
moment may cry out to anyone that has the means and
wherewithal to do so, but it may be to late.

No man should have to stand in judgment for failing his own flesh and blood,
for the sake of merely his own self rightness.


.

 

[WuzzFuzz]

Setting aside the discussion of liberal minded educators in this thread, it was pointed out by a above contributor, that one should maintain the position of "I"...This holds true in all discussions, with our children, girlfriends, our view points here on the forum. and especially in a discussion with a wife....

Once the conversation changes to, you should, you ought to, you always, then the animosity is on. Not exactly the best way to win friends and influence people.

For me...as long as I preface my discussion with I believe, I think, then those are my beliefs, my thoughts on the subject, it becomes harder to take offense. The conversation is then free to continue with the other persons view points.

Again I use the analogy of a marriage, you marry them for who they are...Once you try to change them into something you want them to be, or become, then they are no longer that person you fell in love with.


WuzzFuzz

 

[oldRoger]

Using Tyson as an "authority" is an example of flawed logic in argument.
"As a world-famous scientist, Neil deGrasse Tyson is known for his dispassionate embrace of cold, hard facts...".
The "argument from authority" is really not an argument it is a statement instead of an argument.
Another serious flaw in this sort of approach is the use of Tyson as a authority in matters of firearms history or law, Tyson is an expert in his field (I assume, I don't know his history of publications) but these statements of his are far from his field. He is using his celebrity as a tool to convince us of his politically correct position.

Lott is a genuine authority in the field with many peer reviewed publications.

I can also recommend Joyce Lee Malcolm's book "To Keep and Bear Arms" Professor Malcolm is a Historian who is widely known in the field.

 

[sigp220.45]

You raised a son who has his own views and sticks to them. Congratulations.

A close friend of mine had a falling out with his son over politics. They didn't speak for years, and hadn't reconciled when the son died suddenly in his early 30s. It broke his heart, and he can never make it right.

There is more to life than guns. Be proud of him, and talk about football or gardening or backgammon.

 

[Rick_A]

As others mentioned, all "gun death" statistics I've broken down have shown about 2/3rds to be suicides. We are mostly a danger to ourselves. In any breakdown of dangerous activities guns are at the bottom of the list, with household items, automobile accidents, and household accidents and occupational hazards being well above. Our poor health habits tend to be some of the biggest killers.

Distant family members have argued with me over social media that guns have no purpose othere than to kill. The fact is, guns only have a purpose to launch projectiles accurately and reliably. The rest is up to the person behind the trigger.

 

[otisrush]

I literally cannot count the thousands of times I have pulled the trigger - like most everyone else here. I have actually killed 2 antelope, a couple of pheasant, and about 20 quail. All the thousands and thousands and thousands of times I've pulled the trigger I've put holes in paper....or cans.......or cow pies......or clay targets.......or........

When I was being trained to teach Boy Scouts we were taught we're not allowed to use the word "weapon". "Weapon" conveys an intent to do harm. Of course, a Boy Scout would never harm anyone, so they would never use a weapon. A gun or firearm? Sure. But not a weapon. A baseball bat becomes a weapon the instant someone decides they want to harm someone with it. Up until that point - it's a baseball bat.

 

[rwsmith]

What's this 'household firearm' stuff?

Does he mean that guns like the ones that I keep in my safe are responsible for millions of deaths? Or do guns kept and used by criminals and thugs count as 'household weapons'?

I think that our death rates due to gunshots are caused more by having a population of crazy, soulless, amoral, criminals, street thugs, video game zombies, psychopathic, weak willed and the like instead of by the number of guns that Americans own.

I'm not sure how millions of Germans under Hitler, Russians under Stalin, Cambodians under Pol Pot, Congolese under King Leopold II, Greeks, Armenians Assyrians by Ismail Pasha, North Koreans under Kim Il Sung managed to be killed without 'household guns'.

I've had guns for 40 years and they've never jumped up and killed anybody. Much less millions of people. Paper targets however, fear me.

Take a look at how knife murders skyrocketed in England after enforcing stricter gun laws.

People die by falls, fires, choking, poisoning, and drowning.

480,000 people die from smoking related causes., STDs count for about 20,000 deaths.

ACCIDENTAL DEATHS, that is, those caused by 'household guns' number about 600 per year. The rest of the deaths by firearms are INTENTIONAL murder or suicides. That has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with me and my guns. I could even own a military pattern semi automatic rifle and NOT HURT OR KILL ANYBODY.

See, I didn't even mention car accidents.

I'm a firm believer in cold, hard facts, too.

 

[steelslaver]

I compare gun control to Marxism. Both are based on unobtainable ideals.

It would be great if everyone contributed all they could to society and society provided everything everyone needed. Hasn't worked yet and never will. Some people will always want more, some will be lazy. Some will prey on others. Human nature.

Yes, it would be great to live in a world where no one NEEDED guns. But, once again not going to happen. Human nature. Some people will always prey on others. Banning is like banning war. First of all there are 100s of millions of them already out their. Criminals will never give theirs up. THEY DON'T OBEY LAWS! Some of us are smart enough to realize this. Some are not. Plus, guns are not some kind of magical high tech machinery. With today's machine tools somebody somewhere will make them. Joke is fully automatic blow back operated submachine guns are about the simplest to make. We can't stop meth or any of the other chemistry drug manufacture. What makes anyone think they can stop people from setting up to manufacture guns?

 

[Deuce Caboose]

It's quite simple,

It's not what's on a man's hip...It's what's in his heart that counts.

A man's duty is to protect his family....A man guards his own
to the last ditch....Use the right tool for that job.

Those without the means to defend their own, at the last
moment may cry out to anyone that has the means and
wherewithal to do so, but it may be to late.

No man should have to stand in judgment for failing his own flesh and blood,
for the sake of merely his own self rightness.




.

This.
Perhaps those of us in Law Enforcement understand the threat better than most.
No matter if the threat is drug fueled, or psychotic breakdown, or ideology, the ability to preserve your life and that of one's family is absolute.
"... to the last ditch".
I consider it my duty to do so, as a husband and father.
In the end, for those of us who understand this, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't, none is possible.

 

[rwsmith]

If I counterfeited money.....

For one thing, gun-grabbers inflate their numbers

with deceptive statistics. If you fall off a ladder in your

home, and you own a gun, that is termed a "gun

related accident" .

"Gun Violence" deaths, for instance, include hunting accidents,

police shooting violent offenders, etc.

If I counterfeited money, and the police invaded my house, there would be reports of an 'arsenal' of rifles, shotguns and handguns and thousands of bullets. Obviously I intended to use these on a killing spree, or to overthrow the government.