Help Me Save My Son

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I don't put much effort in trying to convince others to own guns. They need to own the decision, responsibility and discipline that goes along with it, not me. That includes family. It's a big decision for a man and wife with two small kids to bring a gun in the home.

As far as statistics, who cares? Most of those numbers involve idiot gangbangers shooting each other. Maybe it would be better if the numbers were much higher? In any event, no statistic will persuade me that I'd be better off disarming myself. And just as many or more folks are convinced that they don't need a gun in the home or carry. Heck, the overwhelming majority of gun owners never carry a gun on their person. And ya know... it might be a good decision for them.

 

[finesse_r]

Leave your son's views and opinions to himself and your gun collection to your local pro Second Amendment gun club, the NRA or your pro gun friends and relatives.

I have to disagree. If he is your son, you are and should have always been his primary educator. It is never too late to fulfill that roll. I would not argue to the point of causing a rift, but I would not easily see my own flesh and blood misled so terribly, by these agencies of social change that pose as higher education institutions. I suspect his warped opinions of the second amendment are just the surface of the brain washing he has endured at such institutions.

It is never too late. I myself was brainwashed by them, and suffered through that in my twenties. Fortunately I was able to see thought their deceit and also fortunately I can read with comprehension, so reading, rereading, and studying the US constitution myself, and studying the back ground of those that wrote the US Constitution was my greatest aid in regaining my sanity.

Cognitive dissonance is a terrible thing. He needs to be made aware of the power of cognitive dissonance, and the power of the repetitive suggestion that he has endured in those institutions. It is no different than the brainwashing first made famous by the Red Chinese in the 1950's, only now it has been polished and sophisticated into a true science.

I would never give up on a child of mine. I hope you never give up on yours.

 

[Absalom]

I don't put much effort in trying to convince others to own guns. They need to own the decision, responsibility and discipline that goes along with it, not me.....

I think this is the key here. In order to have a good relationship with your son, your goal needs to be to get him to respect YOUR decision to own guns and your stand on the 2nd Amendment.

So focus on explaining why you believe you are right, not why he is wrong. Too many people on the pro-gun side spend their energy, like some of the comments here too, vilifying the opposition and denying the legitimacy of their arguments. Trying to "save" somebody by implying that he's been brainwashed (you're basically telling him he's an idiot if he believes different from you) is about the most counterproductive way to go about this.

I have quite a few liberal friends who know my interests, and quite a few know I'm carrying. We get into gun control debates. The key for me is to keep it personal. I don't launch into tirades about how the liberal media are lying or try to dissect the 30,000 annual "gun deaths" to "prove" that it's really not that bad. When someone comes with statistics like that tweet above, I tell people that I'm not disputing any numbers, I'm simply explaining why I personally own guns and carry one, and why I believe it's important that we have the right to do so.

It works. I don't "save" or "convert" anyone, but I can get those people who I'd like to be friends with despite their different views to respect mine.

If you start out by telling people that the media are lying to them and their professor brain-washed them, you're already dead in the water.

 

[finesse_r]

I think this is the key here. In order to have a good relationship with your son, your goal needs to be to get him to respect YOUR decision to own guns and your stand on the 2nd Amendment.

So focus on explaining why you believe you are right, not why he is wrong. Too many people on the pro-gun side spend their energy, like some of the comments here too, vilifying the opposition and denying the legitimacy of their arguments. Trying to "save" somebody by implying that he's been brainwashed (you're basically telling him he's an idiot if he believes different from you) is about the most counterproductive way to go about this.

I have quite a few liberal friends who know my interests, and quite a few know I'm carrying. We get into gun control debates. The key for me is to keep it personal. I don't launch into tirades about how the liberal media are lying or try to dissect the 30,000 annual "gun deaths" to "prove" that it's really not that bad. When someone comes with statistics like that tweet above, I tell people that I'm not disputing any numbers, I'm simply explaining why I personally own guns and carry one, and why I believe it's important that we have the right to do so.

It works. I don't "save" or "convert" anyone, but I can get those people who I'd like to be friends with despite their different views to respect mine.

If you start out by telling people that the media are lying to them and their professor brain-washed them, you're already dead in the water.

That is certainly the politically correct answer. I doubt it will do much to deprogram his son's brainwashing, but it will certainly play well for the politically correct.

If a person doesn't understand the power of cognitive dissonance, and doesn't understand he has been the victim of the systematic brainwashing that goes on in those institutions that his son attended, then it is very difficult to break that brainwashing.

Also I would never suggest someone is stupid for being brainwashed. In fact it is often easier to brainwash a highly intelligent person than a dumb person. I suggest you do some reading on cognitive dissonance, and on the systematic changes that take place to young people who attend colleges and universities, especially the more prestigious ones like the Ivy League schools.

Suppressing the truth of how the liberal media distorts reality concerning guns, or suppressing the truth about the intentional and systematic brainwashing that takes place in universities does no good. I would not get in a tirade about it, but it is there, it is real, and there are untold examples of it for anyone who still has some ability to fend off the cognitive dissonance that results from years of exposure to one view.

There is an interesting example of this on a TV series called Homeland, where a US Marine is systematically brainwashed by his Muslim captors. If a man with his training and maturity can be brainwashed, just think how easy it is to systematically influence the young who do not have their defenses up and are trusting every word of their instructors. Year after year of this and exposure to others who were already brainwashed by their parents, will take its toll on even the strongest and smartest young person who is desperate to belong.

It does not require torture like the above mentioned TV series, all it takes is consistent social pressure, and repetitive disinformation. Once the years have taken their toll a mind set known as cognitive dissonance becomes established and everything the person sees or reads or hears is filtered by the set of now established beliefs the person has.

The power of this can be seen in cults that get young people and in no time at all have them brainwashed. Nothing short of a intervention will often free them.

If you think the other side of this issue is just a different valid opinion, then we have a serious disagreement. The second amendment says what it says, and only distortion of the words can change that.

I know it is popular and politically correct to believe no one is right and no one is wrong on an issue. Hogwash. There is a right and a wrong on this issue and it may well be the most vital issue of our time.

 

[RJJ 1971]

As a father myself.
Just love your kids no matter what your views or theirs are.
It's all we can do.

Someday soon your son will probably be in your exact same shoes with his children.

Then you can just give that famous grandparent smile.

 

[Absalom]

That is certainly the politically correct answer. I doubt it will do much to deprogram his son's brainwashing, but it will certainly play well for the politically correct.

If a person doesn't understand the power of cognitive dissonance, and doesn't understand he has been the victim of the systematic brainwashing that goes on in those institutions that his son attended, then it is very difficult to break that brainwashing.

Also I would never suggest someone is stupid for being brainwashed. In fact it is often easier to brainwash a highly intelligent person than a dumb person. I suggest you do some reading on cognitive dissonance, and on the systematic changes that take place to young people who attend colleges and universities, especially the more prestigious ones like the Ivy League schools.

Suppressing the truth of how the liberal media distorts reality concerning guns, or suppressing the truth about the intentional and systematic brainwashing that takes place in universities does no good. I would not get in a tirade about it, but it is there, it is real, and there are untold examples of it for anyone who still has some ability to fend off the cognitive dissonance that results from years of exposure to one view.
.....

This is a good example of what I was referring to. You start with this far-out stuff, and no good argument you make about the Second Amendment and gun ownership will have any impact at all, because you've already destroyed all your credibility in the eyes of normal people.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

If you really want to debate the statistics with your son, then you'll want to put the numbers in perspective. The link your son provided uses the average of about 30k "gun deaths" each year and then runs with it to invent comparative numbers. What you can do is examine those "gun deaths" as it relates to him.

Below are excerpts form the below link.

There are roughly 32,000 gun deaths per year in the United States. Of those, around 60% are suicides. About 3% are accidental deaths (between 700-800 deaths). About 34% of deaths (just over 11,000 in both 2010 and 2011) make up the remainder of gun deaths and are classified as homicides.

* Is your son planning on committing suicide with a gun? If not, then we can erase about 60% of "gun deaths" as not applicable to him.

In New Orleans, between 35-55% of homicides are classified as gang-related. In Chicago, an estimated 80% of homicides are gang-related. And in Baltimore, the police commissioner states that 80% of homicides are drug-related.

* Is your son a gangbangner or druggie planning to run around killing his gangbanger and druggie adversaries? If not, then we can take the remaining "gun deaths" number and reduce it further using the above as not applicable to him.

----
If his wife was being attacked by a rapist, would he feel that his wife shooting and killing the rapist to defend her life was the wrong choice? If not, then we've about summed this up.

Good luck.

Putting Gun Death Statistics in Perspective

 

[16thVACav]

I'm not affiliated with this site and can't vouch for anything on it, but it seems to be fairly comprehensive and the facts are footnoted as to source: Gun Facts - Debunking Gun Control Myths

 

[Vulcan Bob]

I've heard it said that a liberal is someone who hasn't been mugged yet. I hope your Son doesn't find out the hard way.

 

[finesse_r]

The truth only appears to be far out to those suffering from cognitive dissonance.

Every study I have ever read on the impact of university on students belief systems descries the systematic liberalization of college students that increases each year they attend. That is not far out it is reality. There are any number of studies that demonstrate this and they are pretty universal in their findings.

Cognitive dissonance is about as basic as it gets to anyone familiar with the psychology of human beings and what impact their though processes. It is not some far out theory. It is taught at these very universities and colleges under discussion in their psychology departments.

The social pressure to belong that young people, even college age feel is not far out. It is the basis of gang activity, it is the single most significant influence in young people's lives in high school, and often in college. As a student ages this social pressure increases in high school, and when they are away at university among strangers. Most people need to feel that they belong, and this is a powerful basic human need.

The liberal slant of universities is not far out. It is a fact. From the president down to the professors, universities are bastions of liberalism. It is often a requirement to being hired for such a position.

Given this even if there is no guiding hand the elements for brainwashing are nicely in place and the brainwashing takes place. Even if there is no planned systematic conspiracy at work the elements for brainwashing are all in place. Perhaps they are not ready to learn about how the system got this way, as to many who have been "influenced" by political correctness, that could at first seem far out. However, knowing the above factual information and understanding how cognitive dissonance works is not far out at all.

Reading the bias in newspaper reporting of gun activity requires only a clear thought process to see how slanted this is from coast to coast.

So I fail to see anything far out in my views.

 

[2hawk]

I guess it's time to trot this out again, take a moment to read it please...

I ran across this excellent article awhile back, and rather than try to reprint the whole thing here, I'll just link to the thread:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge...gunner.html?highlight=inside+mind+anti-gunner

It is an enlightened approach to deal with those that would destroy our 2A.

 

[PatriotX]

It's interesting to note that those who bash education and educational institutions often have the least amount of experience with either.

Ignorant and proud of it is no way to go through life.

 

[SmokeStack Lightning]

I hope you can respond to this and assist me …to save my son. I apologize in advance if you think this is too long. Despite my pro-Second Amendment perspectives over my lifetime (I'm in my mid-60's), my adult son has not supported my views. I have a number of firearms, I've attended some self-defense training courses, and I practice; moreover, my family has been the victim of crime; but yet my son does not support my views about the Second Amendment, firearms ownership, and training. I can only assume that private school, and undergrad and post-grad universities contributed to his dismissal of and disdain for firearms and firearm owners, as have his like-minded in-laws, friends and the mainstream media which targets his demographic. That and the fact that he lives in California. Now that my son has two small children, he seems to be (but I'm not sure) reconsidering my pro-2A comments and the seeds I've planted in his mind regarding his responsibility to defend his family. He's been challenging me in discussion lately (mostly email, since we live a long distance away - Oregon), and this is a good thing because he seems to be listening, if not yet agreeing, and there is an opportunity to widen the door of understanding. In the context of this, he and his sphere have been using Facebook (which I do not use; and if I did, he would not allow me to be his "Friend" to read their postings). I now see a greater opportunity to influence not only him, but others in his social media universe when he posts my comments to him – which he hinted at doing.

Regarding crime and firearms-related statistics that have come up in conversations among his social peers, I'm struggling to keep up with the recent liberal, ant-gun media's "facts" he shoots at me when I know they are not facts; but rather, distortions at best and outright lies at worst. I've followed John Lott's work somewhat over the years, particularly after reviews similar to this:
Damn Lies -- or Statistics.

I said to my son that John Lott is and has been the expert, and expert witness, and there has been a coordinated effort to attempt to discredit him by putting self-serving spin on his research. But when he and others later prove that the discreditors were wrong and had even lied, it doesn't matter, the damage had already been done – the confusion and doubt in the uninformed public had been created. The liars win again, because a lie often repeated becomes truth, or at a minimum, maybe just doubt. And if it's spread through the mainstream media, doubt is all that the liars need.

Today my son challenged me to respond to this:

Instead of arguing about guns on Twitter, Neil deGrasse Tyson just laid out the numbers.

I'm unsure now how to respond; but I cannot be sarcastic or dismissive as is the "other side" (and sometimes as we are when we're frustrated with them). Any comments regarding these new "facts" by the "world famous scientist, Neil deGrasse Tyson"?

Thank you in advance.

My brother spent 4 years as a Marine in Viet Nam.

He never saw combat, just the aftermath.

He was known as a "POG".

He joined up on his own accord, not drafted.

While we grew up together, he was always be the one that brought home the wild game because he was a better shot than me.

Since he was a Marine, I assumed that when I bought my M&P 15, he'd like to inspect and handle it for "old time's sake" if nothing else.

He wouldn't even look at it, let alone handle it.

He just said, "I have no desire to handle it, I don't like guns".

His answer was good enough for me, so I locked it back up and that's been the last of it.

No one can influence another's convictions and he's my brother.

What does bug me though, is when my Pop passed in 2010 my brother inherited his firearms since he was the first born, and I know he isn't caring for them.

He owns no firearm cleaning tools and won't bring them to me so I could provide them the love and care they deserve.

 

[SW MP15]

They want to live in a 5 story warehouse with metal lined walls. They think our trucks are stupid, and think we should drive lil hybrid cars. They've never had to punch a time clock. They have been sheltered all their life. They think reality is a video game. They hate guns, they dislike the police because they are considered "The Man"! They dislike sports or sporting events (such as football)! They drink strange flavored lite beer. Their day of ruffing it is, sitting in a Star Bucks and not getting good service. There is no gender in their world. No male or females. They've never had to worry about their lights being cut off, due to lack of payment. Or feeding their family the next week. 60% of them work from home. And if their internet is shut down a day, and if Twitter or instagram is down, it's a major catastrophe. They have never been in a fist fight and feared for their life. They've never had their car or house broken into. They have never lost a good friend in a senseless act of violence.

And your trying to explain why you would need or want a Gun for personal or your families protection?

GOOD LUCK!!

 

[Comrad]

He wouldn't allow you to be a friend on Facebook if you became a member? There's a bigger problem than views on the second amendment. Sorry to be blunt but you asked.

 

[BC38]

The truth only appears to be far out to those suffering from cognitive dissonance.

Every study I have ever read on the impact of university on students belief systems descries the systematic liberalization of college students that increases each year they attend. That is not far out it is reality. There are any number of studies that demonstrate this and they are pretty universal in their findings.

Cognitive dissonance is about as basic as it gets to anyone familiar with the psychology of human beings and what impact their though processes. It is not some far out theory. It is taught at these very universities and colleges under discussion in their psychology departments.

The social pressure to belong that young people, even college age feel is not far out. It is the basis of gang activity, it is the single most significant influence in young people's lives in high school, and often in college. As a student ages this social pressure increases in high school, and when they are away at university among strangers. Most people need to feel that they belong, and this is a powerful basic human need.

The liberal slant of universities is not far out. It is a fact. From the president down to the professors, universities are bastions of liberalism. It is often a requirement to being hired for such a position.

Given this even if there is no guiding hand the elements for brainwashing are nicely in place and the brainwashing takes place. Even if there is no planned systematic conspiracy at work the elements for brainwashing are all in place. Perhaps they are not ready to learn about how the system got this way, as to many who have been "influenced" by political correctness, that could at first seem far out. However, knowing the above factual information and understanding how cognitive dissonance works is not far out at all.

Reading the bias in newspaper reporting of gun activity requires only a clear thought process to see how slanted this is from coast to coast.

So I fail to see anything far out in my views.

I am one who generally argues forcefully against the conspiracy theories, but in this case I'm afraid I have to agree with finesse_r. It isn't so much a conspiracy, as it is a closed, hot-house, almost incestuous environment. Schools of higher education are generally in urban areas and steeped in liberalism. This results in so any of the people there traveling in exclusively liberal circles and spending all their time with others of the same liberal mindset to the point that their attitudes become ingrained and reinforced through repetition. They so seldom interact with anyone who is NOT of a liberal mindset that they are convinced that only a small, ignorant minority hold conservative views.

It's interesting to note that those who bash education and educational institutions often have the least amount of experience with either.

Ignorant and proud of it is no way to go through life.

WHOA! Hold on a minute there pard! I've earned three sets of "letters" after my name, and only finished earning the last set less than 15 years ago. I have PLENTY of experience with academia and higher education, and it isn't all a bunch of out-dated ancient history either.

I don't "bash" higher education, and really haven't seen anyone else in this thread do so either. I think I have a pretty clear-eyed view of the reality on college campuses, and I agree 100% with finesse_r's assessment. Even though the things he says are unpopular in some circles, that doesn't make them "bashing".

FWIW, my primary education is in the field of engineering. Now as you may (or may not) know, engineers are generally a pretty conservative bunch. Everything they do is based in science and physical reality, so there aren't too many who are of a radically liberal bent. They are oriented toward the rational and logical - not the emotional.

BUT, even in an engineering ONLY school - like the one where I got my main credentials - there is still a pretty strong streak of liberalism amongst the tenured professors. Especially those whose entire career has been in education, and those who do not teach the "hard" sciences. Interestingly enough this is less true of those who have spent a good portion of their career working in industry rather than academia. There are also a lot fewer people teaching the hard sciences who are of a liberal mindset.

Not bashing liberalism either. There are other forms of intelligence besides that which dominates the math and science arenas, and they are no less important or valid. I'm just making the observation that, in my experience, those who are oriented towards mathematics and sciences are more commonly conservative.

All that to say, that in my years on college campuses spanning the period from 1989 to 2002, I saw a very strong streak of liberalism in the world of higher education. Just as finesse_r stated. That has been my experience, FWIW.

 

[Rastoff]

Where does he live in CA? If he's anywhere near me, I'd be happy to run him through a NRA Basic Pistol or Shotgun class for free. There is no better teacher than experience. Get him out shooting and maybe we can alter his perspective.

I'll provide the guns and ammo for the course as well.

 

[joeintexas]

Actually most people won't change their views and opinions until something dramatic happens directly to them. My guess is every person on the floor in California when the shooting started was wishing they had a gun of any kind. Most probably an hour earlier were voting for more gun control. Sometimes it's just easier to live in a perfect make believe world. Sometimes, sadly, reality sucks. I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Practical]

People make decisions based on what they believe and what the people around them believe. IF all his associations are anti-gun people tend to realign their beliefs and values to align with them. It is subconscious and probably an evolved survival mechanism to not be out of step with the tribe.

I recommend moving him in baby steps. Encourage him by reminding him about the fun of shooting and that 99% of it is hobby which trains you for the 1% chance it might be useful for selfdefense.

IF he shoots with you again bring only fun guns. 22, shotguns and revolvers.

Encourage him to get some fun guns a 22, a decent target revolver/pistol and 22 and maybe a good revolver. Get him a 686Plus as gift after he gets his fun 22s.

LEAVE HIM alone except when visiting see if he will take you out with his fun guns and just enjoy the time together and don't preach.

Preaching never works. Let him have fun again.

 

[the ringo kid]

I hope you can respond to this and assist me …to save my son. I apologize in advance if you think this is too long. Despite my pro-Second Amendment perspectives over my lifetime (I'm in my mid-60's), my adult son has not supported my views. I have a number of firearms, I've attended some self-defense training courses, and I practice; moreover, my family has been the victim of crime; but yet my son does not support my views about the Second Amendment, firearms ownership, and training. I can only assume that private school, and undergrad and post-grad universities contributed to his dismissal of and disdain for firearms and firearm owners, as have his like-minded in-laws, friends and the mainstream media which targets his demographic. That and the fact that he lives in California. Now that my son has two small children, he seems to be (but I'm not sure) reconsidering my pro-2A comments and the seeds I've planted in his mind regarding his responsibility to defend his family. He's been challenging me in discussion lately (mostly email, since we live a long distance away - Oregon), and this is a good thing because he seems to be listening, if not yet agreeing, and there is an opportunity to widen the door of understanding. In the context of this, he and his sphere have been using Facebook (which I do not use; and if I did, he would not allow me to be his "Friend" to read their postings). I now see a greater opportunity to influence not only him, but others in his social media universe when he posts my comments to him – which he hinted at doing.

Regarding crime and firearms-related statistics that have come up in conversations among his social peers, I'm struggling to keep up with the recent liberal, ant-gun media's "facts" he shoots at me when I know they are not facts; but rather, distortions at best and outright lies at worst. I've followed John Lott's work somewhat over the years, particularly after reviews similar to this:
Damn Lies -- or Statistics.

I said to my son that John Lott is and has been the expert, and expert witness, and there has been a coordinated effort to attempt to discredit him by putting self-serving spin on his research. But when he and others later prove that the discreditors were wrong and had even lied, it doesn't matter, the damage had already been done – the confusion and doubt in the uninformed public had been created. The liars win again, because a lie often repeated becomes truth, or at a minimum, maybe just doubt. And if it's spread through the mainstream media, doubt is all that the liars need.

Today my son challenged me to respond to this:

Instead of arguing about guns on Twitter, Neil deGrasse Tyson just laid out the numbers.

I'm unsure now how to respond; but I cannot be sarcastic or dismissive as is the "other side" (and sometimes as we are when we're frustrated with them). Any comments regarding these new "facts" by the "world famous scientist, Neil deGrasse Tyson"?

Thank you in advance.

All I can say, is don't ''give up the ship'' kinda thing. Adults need to learn to think to--instead of blindly charging into machine-gun fire like fanatics. I am slowly changing the mind of one lemming here logically. He's enjoyed the trips we have made to the range since July, and loves blowing the targets to smithereens.

Keep chipping away at your son like the antis keep doing to the 2nd. Being he's an adult and mentioned here already to let him go his own way, I disagree to a bit. Reason being, is I'll bet you my last buck, that while in college, the lemming professors did their beset to brainwash him. Their brainwashing needs to be countered.