Help with identification

[jester2844]

I have what i believe is a pre model 35 with a serial number of 178xx. It has 5 screws and two things that are off about it. the first is that it doesnt have the s&w stamp on the gun the other is a pin on the left side of the gun between the cylinder and the trigger. The barrel is stamped smith and wesson.

 

[jester2844]

it is a 22lr

 

[murphydog]

This appears to be a K-22 Outdoorsman from between 1935-'40. The serial number will be on the bottom of the grip frame, probably somewhere in the 600,000 range. It has earlier (1920s) stocks, a post-war K-22 or model 17 barrel with a different front sight, and the logo has been polished off during a refinish. Hope this is helpful.

 

[jester2844]

there is no serial number on the grip the only number I can find on the gun is when I open the cylinder and as I said before it is 178xx

 

[murphydog]

If there are no numbers on the bottom of the grip frame, they were probably also removed with the refinish. This is the location of the SN of a gun of this era; the number you mentioned is a factory internal code called an assembly number.

Unfortunately, a gun missing its SN is illegal to possess. If you see a number on the rear cylinder face, that may be the SN and you may be able to have it legally restamped with that number, but the process to allow this may be difficult. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

 

[jester2844]

well that sucks if the serial number has been removed. Can you explain the pin between the tigger and the cylinder on the left side in the close up picture.

 

[handejector]

Can you explain the pin between the tigger and the cylinder on the left side in the close up picture.

That is simply the end of the trigger stud.
Your gun also has a post-war, short action hammer.

 

[DCWilson]

Look at the rear face of the cylinder, the flat underside of the barrel, and the underside of the ejector star. At the probable time of this gun's original manufacture, the serial number once found on the butt would be repeated in those locations. There should be a K prefix, as the basic frame of that gun dates from the late 1940s through 1955.

There are some oddities, though. The stocks are from before 1920, the rear sight appears to be of the prewar style that was not used after WWII, and the front sight blade has been either ground down or replaced to work with the non-standard rear sight.

Can you provide a photograph of the top of the rear sight so we can see how many screws there are in it and how large they are?

The number you see on the concealed frame surface that is revealed when you swing the cylinder open is a soft-fitting number. It had no meaning once the gun was given final assembly and sent to inventory.

 

[handejector]

There should be a K prefix, as the basic frame of that gun dates from the late 1940s through 1955.

Look at the barrel-frame junction.
That frame shipped with a round, non-ribbed barrel.

 

[DCWilson]

Look at the barrel-frame junction.
That frame shipped with a round, non-ribbed barrel.

Well, I did look at that and the mismatch is part of what led me to think that was a prewar sight stuffed into a postwar frame. I misremembered the way the newer front sight foot steps to the rib; I incorrectly recalled it went all the way forward to a slight step down at the the rear of the barrel rib. Here's the way a K-22 Masterpiece of this era ought to look in that region.

So are we to interpret this gun as a rebarreled Pre-Model 45 modified with the addition of a prewar sight? How then to explain the top sideplate screw, unless there were some short-action .22 M&Ps manufactured earlier than I thought they were. Which could well be since I don't know jack about those guns.

The more I think about this gun the less I know about it. I've stared at it so much now my eyes hurt, and I don't even know if it's a K-frame any more.

ADDED FIVE MINUTES LATER: Now it is beginning to look to me like a prewar .22/32 that has had a Model of 1953 barrel screwed onto it. But how then to explain that hammer and the lack of a visible hammer stud on the left side of the frame?

Drinking time. If the cupboard is bare I will just melt some shoe polish and consume that.

 

[handejector]

Occam sez-
Always try the simplest explanation first.


It is probably a K-22 OD with a post-war barrel, ejector rod, and hammer.

 

[murphydog]

David, I thought odd I or J frame at first also, but the speed hammer and the trigger guard proportions and shape got me on the K frame trail.

 

[DCWilson]

Gotta love a gun forum where the administration quotes medieval philosophers in support of a position.

That Bill Occam is a great guy. I was a friend of Bill O. once. I guess I need to get forswear speculation and wild coincidence mongering and get back on the simplicity wagon.

I still worry some about the absence of an exposed hammer stud end. I guess everything just got polished really flat and featureless in the clean-up and restoration.

To the OP: I'd still be interested in hearing if a serial number is legible in the secondary locations mentioned above.

 

[jester2844]

Ok I was able to locate a serial number behind the star its 633xxx. I have included more photos as well. they are from my phone so im sorry for the quality.

 

[murphydog]

It appears someone removed the original (taller) front sight base and blade, and replaced it with one to compensate for the lower rear sight.

Others may chime in as to the feasibility of the SN restamping process.

"I was a friend of Bill O. once."

Is that the Smith & Wesson 12-step program?

 

[DCWilson]

Great pictures: Thank you.

Both Mr. Jarrett and Mr. Occam are correct, and you have an early (1931, probably) K-22 Outdoorsman frame that now sports a postwar barrel, 'teens-era stocks, and some replacement parts -- certainly the hammer, and I would guess the trigger as well. The taller sight on the postwar barrel has been filed down to work with the prewar sights.

 

[DCWilson]

"I was a friend of Bill O. once."

Is that the Smith & Wesson 12-step program?

Indeed. You buy 12 guns, then you buy 12 more, then...

 

[jester2844]

Thanks for the info. Is there suppose to be a sn on the frame and if so what can I do about it. Also what do you think this is worth

 

[DCWilson]

ATF regulations require the frame to be serial numbered. You would expect to see the number on the bottom of the grip frame if it was still there. Sometimes a damaged serial number is restamped on the grip frame under the grip panels. With ATF permission, and evidence that the number is correct, you can get authorization for a gunsmith to do that.

As a put-together gun, your revolver has some value as a shooter, but no collector value. Shooter grade value is probably somewhere in the $150-200 range. But that's only if it is legal. Most gun stores and all knowledgeable buyers would not pursue that gun.

The best thing to do with it from a monetary point of view might be to part it out. The stocks seem to be in excellent condition and would be of interest to many collectors. If you discard the frame, the barrel and action parts could probably be sold for more than their assembled worth.

 

[Hondo44]

You have what is known as a Frankengun. Sending you a private meassge.

 

[k22fan]

Perhaps you gentlemen were imbibing socially when you should have been studying old Frankenstein movies. I'm wondering if you are attributing the torso to the wrong grave yard.

Based on the rarity of those revolvers it is unlikely the torso was a post office or Coast Guard .22. The short action hammer would not function in an Outdoorsman. In the OP's 9:00pm reply #14 the top of the frame looks bead blasted or parkerized. The frame's cylinder stop stud pin was filed to provide clearance for a recessed cylinder to swing open. Could this be a short action M&P converted to rim fire? I'd like to see pictures of the recoil shield and hammer slot showing both ends of the firing pin.

If this is a converted M&P the only secondary serial number that could even possibly be original would be on the yoke. The OP needs to check for a relocated serial number on the sides of the gripframe. If there isn't one, in addition to considering the federal laws the OP needs to take a hard look at his local laws.

 

[Hondo44]

"Soft-fitting" number used for the serial number

jester,

It just occurred to me that it's very possible that whoever modified/refinished your gun assumed that the #178xx you found in the yoke is your gun's serial #. Because S&W started stamping the serial # in that location after the 1950's, many people, especially younger gun store clerks assume on older guns that it is the serial #. Many S&W guns have been registered using that #!
That #178XX should be located in three locations on your gun:

1. on the yoke arm and seen when opened,
2. on the inside of the sideplate (must be removed to see the #), and
3. on the frame opposite the location of the # on the yoke arm on pre model revolvers.

k22fan's suggestion below is a good one. To confirm which frame you have, you should check for a serial # on the back side of the yoke to verify if it matches the #633XXX on your cylinder.

Look for it on the rear facing surface of the yoke arm with cyl swung open by looking thru one chamber with a flashlight. If you know how, you can pull the cyl off to see it but that's not necessary if you use a good light aimed at the space between the yoke and front of the cyl.

If the numbers match, you can be 99% certain the cyl and frame are original to each other and came from a pre war K22 Outdoorsman .22 revolver from the early 1930's as most posters have suggested. If they don't match, it's even more of a Frankengun and k22fan's M&P possibility could very well be the case.

If this is a converted M&P the only secondary serial number that could even possibly be original would be on the yoke. The OP needs to check for a relocated serial number on the sides of the gripframe.

Please let us know what you find!

P.S. Could we also see a photo of the hammer cocked and the open yoke. Thx.

 

[k22fan]

Hondo44,

This quote from the OP appears to eliminate connecting the yoke serial number to the frame by matching the frame and yoke assembly numbers.

there is no serial number on the grip the only number I can find on the gun is when I open the cylinder and as I said before it is 178xx

 

[Hondo44]

Hondo44,

This quote from the OP appears to eliminate connecting the yoke serial number to the frame by matching the frame and yoke assembly numbers.

k22fan,

I have to respectfully disagree.

That assumes he only saw one assembly # in the yoke. That may be a valid assumption but I won't assume it when I can ask instead.
And we don't know if he saw the assembly # on the yoke or on the frame because he just said "when I open the cyl".

If the assembly # is on the yoke and not the frame, the assembly # on the inside of the sideplate will link the yoke and cyl serial # to the frame; if they exist of course.

My reference to the assembly # on the grip frame was informational only in that it is sometimes an alternate location.

Also he said there were no other numbers on the gun and when another poster suggested he check the cyl/star, he found the serial #. I do presume the yoke serial number is there as well because new posters never seem to find that one on their own.

Hope that helps,

 

[handejector]

The important fact is that if you do have the #178XX stamped on your frame in one of the two locations mentioned in #3 above your gun is legal. Because for all intents and purposes, that is now your serial #! And you should use that # if you register or sell the gun.

C'mon, now. That is REALLY bad advice to be giving someone. A gun that has assembly numbers is not suddenly legal if the serial number has been removed from the frame! It doesn't just change to the new number!
Would a Luger with the number removed from the frame, barrel, and slide suddenly be legal because it has the last two digits on small parts and can now "adopt" a new but shorter serial number? Every hundred numbers, those last two are repeated, so I guess I could have a 50 Luger set, all being number 33! After that, I could start looking for 50 to build a set of 34s.
Your suggestion implies that S&Ws with the butt number removed are no longer a problem- simply adopt the assembly number as a serial number. Do you really think that will fly in court?
People usually take advice given here as authoritative, so it is incumbent upon us to make it good advice.

My reference to the assembly # on the grip frame was informational only in that it is sometimes an alternate location.

I never saw the assembly number moved to the grip frame till they started putting model numbers in the yoke and simply needed the room. I've never seen it there on a 5 screw gun.

 

[Hondo44]

C'mon, now. That is REALLY bad advice to be giving someone. A gun that has assembly numbers is not suddenly legal if the serial number has been removed from the frame! It doesn't just change to the new number!
Would a Luger with the number removed from the frame, barrel, and slide suddenly be legal because it has the last two digits on small parts and can now "adopt" a new but shorter serial number? Every hundred numbers, those last two are repeated, so I guess I could have a 50 Luger set, all being number 33! After that, I could start looking for 50 to build a set of 34s.
Your suggestion implies that S&Ws with the butt number removed are no longer a problem- simply adopt the assembly number as a serial number. Do you really think that will fly in court?
People usually take advice given here as authoritative, so it is incumbent upon us to make it good advice.

Lee,
Thank you for that wakeup call. I retract that as erroneous information and opinion.

I never saw the assembly number moved to the grip frame till they started putting model numbers in the yoke and simply needed the room. I've never seen it there on a 5 screw gun.

True I was over generalizing again. I don't imbibe, but I do stay up too late which is probably apparent. And that is the last time I'll ever try David's melted shoe polish concoction!