Help with Ultramax 44 Russion Cowboy Ammo

[DWalt]

Note that smokeless powder has been in use since about 1894 and had pretty well displaced black powder by the early years of the 1900s. Back then, virtually all guns had been made in the black powder era. Handgun ammo in the "old" calibers of that time was loaded lightly using smokeless powder in recognition of that fact, and still is even today. Chamber pressures are equivalent to or even less than the original black powder loadings of the 19th century. Regarding the "pressure spike" alleged for smokeless powder vs. none for BP, I would like to see some substantial evidence of that before I believe it. And old tales are not acceptable evidence. Has anyone ever seen a warning on a box of, say, .38 S&W ammo warning against its use in an old top break revolver? I sure haven't.

 

[steelslaver]

It is not that steel production was in its infancy in 1880. But the production of large melts of consistent quality alloy steel still was.

 

[Nagloc68]

I did try to find pressure data on the Ultramax but I could not. I found some velocity data and energy data, but not pressure data. GLOWE posted some compelling pressure data above which highlight relative low pressure of the smokeless. I had to look up CUP vs PSI. Also, GWALT raises a good point on the pressure spike argument. When you read each argument individually they are compelling, when you compare them it can be confusing. In the meantime, I am going to find myself an antique S&W expert in my area to inspect my revolver - this seems to be a great starting point while I continue to educate myself on ammunition.


If anyone happens to find or have Ultramax pressure data I would love to see it. Thanks,

 

[sigp220.45]

I shoot Fiocchi .44 Russians in this old S&W Double Action. I haven't tried the Ultramax, but I wouldn't hesitate to use it should I come across some.

 

[iby]

I have consistently seen postings regarding 32 and 38 S&W cartridges being no problem in antique guns so why is 44 different?
Are guns from the 1870's more of a problem?

 

[DWalt]

That is true. The old BP cartridges which transitioned to use smokeless were lightly loaded for that reason. Many of the surviving BP-era revolvers have probably fired far more smokeless rounds than BP.

Some may be aware that the .38 Special cartridge started its life as a BP loading but transitioned to use smokeless within a couple of years. For unknown reasons, .38 Special ammunition continued to be available in factory BP loadings until the 1930s. Ballistics were about the same as today's standard smokeless loadings.

 

[glowe]

I did try to find pressure data on the Ultramax but I could not . . . If anyone happens to find or have Ultramax pressure data I would love to see it. Thanks,

Give them a call and report back.

Untramax Ammunition
2112 N Elk Vale Rd, Rapid City, SD 57701
Phone: (605) 342-4141

 

[BMur]

Closed!

Several resources claim they are Permanently closed. The fire was in 2018 so they've been out of business since then.
The fire completely destroyed their facility.



Murph

 

[DWalt]

Regarding the box of Ultramax ammo, you might consider that it now may have some collectible value given that the manufacturer has bitten the dust. As there haven't been any revolvers chambered specifically for the .44 Russian cartridge made for well over a a century, I'd have to believe that the Ultramax ammunition was manufactured to duplicate the ballistic performance of the original .44 Russian BP cartridges of the 19th Century. That performance is given as a chamber pressure of 12,000 CUP (about 15,000 PSI peak) and a MV of 750 ft/sec.

 

[Nagloc68]

I let this post get a little old, but I never purchased the Ultramax, but did speak with Black Hills and I have some information on Black Hills 44 Russian Cowboy action. 210 gr flat nose, loaded to 10,000 PSI and 650fps. I spoke with Black Hills and they were very helpful. Said that there is no SAAMI standards on this round, and they load it to 10,000 PSI and max pressure of 15,500 PSI. They also recommended not to fire smokeless ammunition in a gun built for Black Powder.



Earlier in the thread someone posted the following example of BP Pressure. I don't know how to compare 7300 CUP to 14500 PSI and could not find in conversion calculator - it would be good to compare apples to apples to better understand. I added the Black Hills Ammo as a data point.

44 Russian
HP-38 . . . . . . . .4.2g – 200 RN . . . 763 fps . . .7,300 CUP
BP . . . . . . . . . . .20g – 246 RN . . . 750 fps . . 14,500 PSI
Black Hills Smokeless...N/A - 210 FPL..650fps..10,000 PSI (Max 15,500 PSI): SOURCE: Black Hills Technical Help Desk.



I am not familiar with the characteristics of BP - what is it about BP that avoids the SPIKE pressure and other pressure related safety concerns. Thanks again.


EDIT. I missed this snippet from Dwalt which was informative on the conversion of PSI/CUP, so it looks as though the Black Hills is loaded to the peak pressure of the original BP load.

....As there haven't been any revolvers chambered specifically for the .44 Russian cartridge made for well over a a century, I'd have to believe that the Ultramax ammunition was manufactured to duplicate the ballistic performance of the original .44 Russian BP cartridges of the 19th Century. That performance is given as a chamber pressure of 12,000 CUP (about 15,000 PSI peak) and a MV of 750 ft/sec.

 

[Nagloc68]

I posted a little soon. I did speak with Buffalo Arms, who hand loads .44Russian Black Powder to original specs, but the agent I spoke with did not have these specs on hand - so no updated BP pressure statistics. I'll try to get these and post when I can. Sharing as much information as I can find.

 

[Freischütz]

Check here for a previous discussion of smokeless in blackpowder era firearms:

Shooting an original 2nd Model American

 

[Model19man]

I've never used or owned Accurate 5744 but based on this I might in the future.

Link:Accurate 5744 Powder: Versatility in a Bottle - Gun Digest

 

[bruce381]

I'm the OP and appreciate all the very detailed analysis and opinions. While I seemed to have stoked a old topic of contention, it seems being prudent and using BP maybe the best choice. However I am leaning more towards admiring rather then shooting my model 3. Again, thanks for the detailed overview.

Buy a few boxes of the ultramax take apart and load a LIGHT BP load and have fun sell the other box to a collector to pay your way win win

 

[Model19man]

Buy a few boxes of the ultramax take apart and load a LIGHT BP load and have fun sell the other box to a collector to pay your way win win

That results in a blown up gun - black powder needs to be compressed a bit so there is no light loading - unless a filler is employed on top of the BP.