hdwhit
Member
And yet there are nearly ten million rifles chambered for the M-1 Carbine ave been carried into battle or used for havesting game.
Hey S&W How about an AR Carbine in 9mm ?
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And yet there are nearly ten million rifles chambered for the M-1 Carbine ave been carried into battle or used for havesting game.
NJM15
Member
M&P 10/15
I have both, reload my own so cost is not too much of a factor. I also have two Hi Points a .9mm and a .40. bought them to consolidate my ammo use with my handguns, an M&P 40,and 9. Sig MK 25 and 929 Smith. After several problems with them (what else is new)they were sent back and repaired, now they are dependable accurate weapons , cant be considered AR style because the action is more handgun then AR, they are not pretty to look at but do the job.
Looked at the Berretta's but got the HI points because of the cost factor. less than 300.00 ea. There are several manufacturers making pistol caliber ar type rifles out there
Been tempted lately to pick up the new M&P Sport II but my last .223 carbine usually sat in the safe on range day simply because I prefer the longer site radius and feel of the standard 21" barrel USGI version for outdoor plinking .....
FF to what has kept me up at night lately... that is if S&W would offer their AR carbine chambered in 9mm at the current market price of under $600 not only would I buy one in an instant..... my guess is Im not alone in that thought.
A 9mm AR Carbine makes alot of sense to me for several reasons :
Slightly cheaper ammo that is common with handguns, more sensible for home defense with more bullet mass that has lower wall penetration especially since the new hollow point designs have improved as man stoppers causing many to return to the 9mm handgun.
(BTW 9mm is also much more forgiving on steel plate hanging targets ).
From a profit standpoint it seems the market is flooded with sub $700 AR carbines in .223 right now but Im not seeing many 9mm carbines in that price range (if any) especially with the S&W lifetime warranty.
The 9mm AR Carbine would also be much cheaper to build (shorter build time and less parts = Higher Co. profit ) since the operating system is simple blowback
(Right side 9mm bolt pictured below)
(Left side of 9mm bolt)
Simple blowback means the 9mm AR carbine does not require a gas tube, rotating bolt or locking lugs and as such makes the barrel much easier to machine at the breech, BTW it also does not require the forward assist assembly since the bolt does not lock into the barrel.
Colt simply pins a magazine adapter into their standard .223 lower mag well (pictured below) then adds a larger brass deflector,
If S&W wanted to "One up them" they could offer quick change adapters that would adapt various mags to their carbine,
In other words one adapter would accept M&P mags while another would adapt the carbine to accept Model 459/59 mags, another for CZ, another for Glock etc so the 9mm carbine could swap mags with the users choice of 9mm handgun should need arise.
A little 9mm Carbine plinking porn:
AR15 9mm - YouTube
I have both, reload my own so cost is not too much of a factor. I also have two Hi Points a .9mm and a .40. bought them to consolidate my ammo use with my handguns, an M&P 40,and 9. Sig MK 25 and 929 Smith. After several problems with them (what else is new)they were sent back and repaired, now they are dependable accurate weapons , cant be considered AR style because the action is more handgun then AR, they are not pretty to look at but do the job.
Looked at the Berretta's but got the HI points because of the cost factor. less than 300.00 ea. There are several manufacturers making pistol caliber ar type rifles out there
Hoov
Member
Notes from the cheap seat;
9mm carbines are not cheaper to make.
There are a lot of companies making conversion parts now. Glock mags will be the industry standard.
You do not want to own anything Marlin makes right now. High Point is about the same thing.
If you have never shot a 9mm carbine, you should. Especially full auto. Or suppressed. If you have done neither, do it, then come back.
9mm carbines are not cheaper to make.
There are a lot of companies making conversion parts now. Glock mags will be the industry standard.
You do not want to own anything Marlin makes right now. High Point is about the same thing.
If you have never shot a 9mm carbine, you should. Especially full auto. Or suppressed. If you have done neither, do it, then come back.
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I feel lucky to have one of these, due to my stack of 59 series mags. Mostly a novelty, though. Even though I'm not an AR guy, I can certainly see the utility in a 9mm AR.
They're slowly improving, at least for some of their products.
And how long was the m1 carbine used as a standard issue "assault" rifle? We need to take a look at why it was made, who it was originally for, and how it ended up as a standard issue rifle and how it served that role. IMO, PCCs are more of a training weapon more than anything, for ranges that won't allow for the .223/5.56 velocities. No real cost saving factors exist for the shooter.
sgtsandman
US Veteran
1. I stated that it was my opinion. Everyone has theirs and to each their own.
2. The M1 Carbine was not a primary battle rifle. It was mainly issued to those in a support role and not on the front lines so that those who had them had something with a little more kick than a pistol.
3. The M1 Carbine round may be good for hunting in some situations. Like coyote and such. I wouldn't know since PA does not allow semi automatic rifles for hunting up until this year and only just permitted them to be used for small game and varmints. Until the "Fudds" stop head exploding, we probably won't see much more than that for the short term.
Brian in Oregon
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Hunting is not the only criteria by which a rifle should be judged.
I had a Colt neutered post-ban 9mm AR15 many years ago, and initially thought as you did. But let me tell ya something, a 9mm carbine sure is a lot of fun to murder tin cans with. Would like to get another. Been hoping S&W would make a Sport II 9mm, but so far crickets.
sgtsandman
US Veteran
I don't have a problem with a pistol chambered carbine. I would LOVE to build an AR45. It would probably never be much more than a range toy but I would still love to have one. Also one in .45SOCOM and .45 Raptor. I just love shooting slow, heavy rounds, even if it is expensive.
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Triathloncoach
Member
Almost a year since starting this thread and still no S&W 9mm carbine...
Still on my hit list but if S&W is listening still interested in a Sport II in 9mm
What the heck I'll kick this back to the top. Maybe someone from S&W management will see it.
What has changed in since 2016 is we have a very pro-gun President. With the Democrats not in power the gun market is flat. The AR market is even flatter with AR's sitting unsold at fire sale prices which means unused production machinery which means no money coming in.
9mm AR is largely a ignored market. Just as in the days of Old West when a cowboy carried a 44-40 Colt SAA and a Winchester carbine is 44-40 having a pistol and long gun in the same caliber makes a lot sense.
The Lady brought a full size M&P 9mm about a month ago and she loves it. As is my custom I buy a lot of magazines for our serious self-defense guns. (I hope to have at least seven of them by the end of the month with more coming when I catch them on sale. Two dozen is my eventual goal for her gun).
Obviously that many magazines is a serious chunk of change. Buying a 9mm AR that uses different magazines is out-of-the question for me (unless it uses Beretta 92 mags). However a AR that uses the same M&P mags is not only very cost effective but also a fun gun to shoot and a good choice for self-defense.
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OP
Engine49guy
Member
S&W would be way ahead of the competition IMO if they introduced a 9mm AR carbine with interchangeable adapters for the lower locked in place with Allen screws or pins allowing the lower to be converted from Colt mag to M&P to Model 59 to Beretta or CZ etc by simply changing a magazine block.
cyphertext
US Veteran
Add me to the list of those who say "Meh, what's the point?"... Don't see the appeal to carry an AR style rifle with less power. I'm not a cowboy riding the trail carrying all my ammo with me. Want to shoot the AR cheaper? Get a .22lr conversion.
Agree with those who say that if S&W thought there was a market for a 9mm AR and they could profit, they would make them. If you really want a 9mm carbine, there are several to choose from. For me, if it is just going to be a fun gun, I would just get the Hi Point carbine and call it good.
Agree with those who say that if S&W thought there was a market for a 9mm AR and they could profit, they would make them. If you really want a 9mm carbine, there are several to choose from. For me, if it is just going to be a fun gun, I would just get the Hi Point carbine and call it good.
sigp220.45
US Veteran
I'd love to see S&W make a nice 9mm AR.
Pistol caliber carbines are fun and can be surprisingly accurate. I helped a buddy teach a patrol rifle class in Montana once. The attendees mostly had ARs, with a few M1As and govt loaner M14s. I had my trusty MP5/10mm with me and shot one relay with them for fun. I was neck and neck on the metal silhouettes at 50 and 100 yards. At 150 I dropped a few because I had to figure out the holdover. Same at 200. At 300 (the farthest we shot) I was out of contention, but once I worked out where to hold on the top of the berm I could ring steel about half the time. This was from a sitting position with my elbows on my knees.
Thos 10mm bullets took a while to get there, but I wouldn't try to catch them with my old ball glove.
Pistol caliber carbines are fun and can be surprisingly accurate. I helped a buddy teach a patrol rifle class in Montana once. The attendees mostly had ARs, with a few M1As and govt loaner M14s. I had my trusty MP5/10mm with me and shot one relay with them for fun. I was neck and neck on the metal silhouettes at 50 and 100 yards. At 150 I dropped a few because I had to figure out the holdover. Same at 200. At 300 (the farthest we shot) I was out of contention, but once I worked out where to hold on the top of the berm I could ring steel about half the time. This was from a sitting position with my elbows on my knees.
Thos 10mm bullets took a while to get there, but I wouldn't try to catch them with my old ball glove.
For reasons I can't really put my thumb on we own more 9mm's than any other caliber. The Lady just brought herself a full-size 9mm M&P last month. As I reload most of my ammunition sticking with one caliber is easier.
I already have a couple of 22 LR rifles that get very little use. Some of the critters here on the ranch need a little more killing and often only have a chance for one shot. Critters crawling under a building before dying creates a smelly situation...especially with skunks.
Not to mention more magazines...again.
Maybe or maybe not. Gun manufacturers are well known for not predicting what gun kind of guns the public will buy.
By all accounts Hi Points work well and have a lifetime warranty. At only $300.00 +/- extra magazines are easy on the budget. But it is limited to only 10 rounds and this gun is so fun to shoot that 10 is not enough. The appeal of the S&W 9mm is not only being able to use the same magazines but having fun with fewer reloads.
Redball Sports makes 20 round mags that are approved by Hi-Point.
I've got a couple and they work fine....
Qty 1> 9 Mil 20 Round Mag for Hi-Point 995 – RedBallSports
I would drool over that.....
I agree with what you are saying and was not happy that S&w didn't make one. I bought a Kel Tek sub 2000 gen 2 and it is gangs of fun, well made and reliable. Feels like an UZI The design is ingenioius. They fixed all of the flaws of the original model and the ONLY complaint I have is that the buffer knocks my muffs off my ear.
It has a blowback design because the bolt can be heavier than in a pistol.
I agree with what you are saying and was not happy that S&w didn't make one. I bought a Kel Tek sub 2000 gen 2 and it is gangs of fun, well made and reliable. Feels like an UZI The design is ingenioius. They fixed all of the flaws of the original model and the ONLY complaint I have is that the buffer knocks my muffs off my ear.
It has a blowback design because the bolt can be heavier than in a pistol.
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33 round mag....
Ket Tec makes several models that fit several brands of mags. Mine takes Glocks who also make a 33 round mag. I get tired before I get all the way through that one. I did let loose a full mag in quick succession the other day. Who needs a full auto?
Ket Tec makes several models that fit several brands of mags. Mine takes Glocks who also make a 33 round mag. I get tired before I get all the way through that one. I did let loose a full mag in quick succession the other day. Who needs a full auto?
I have a M&P15 - 223 but can't shoot it at my home ( my house ) range so I bought a
Just Right Carbine that takes my M&P F/S mags in 9mm and just recently
found a Ruger PC9 that takes my P89 Ruger mags they are both a blast
(no bun intended) to shoot if S&W made one I would buy it too. I also think
they are a good Home defense gun just MHO.
Just Right Carbine that takes my M&P F/S mags in 9mm and just recently
found a Ruger PC9 that takes my P89 Ruger mags they are both a blast
(no bun intended) to shoot if S&W made one I would buy it too. I also think
they are a good Home defense gun just MHO.
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cyphertext
US Veteran
Sorry, still don't get the fascination with one caliber... they make different calibers for different jobs. Pistols, rifles, shotguns... have them all and all are different.
I would think a .223 would provide plenty of power for critters that need "a little more killing"... would trust it to get the job done.
AR mags are cheap... probably cheaper than any other platform I own.
They've done fairly well lately...
Other companies make 9mm carbines that take Glock mags, or S&W, or Beretta... if you really want one a 9mm carbine, there are several to choose from today.
The only problem with 9mm carbines is self defense ammo. I know someone high up at Federal. When I bought my Hi Point 9mm carbine he told me to try HST 147gr standard pressure or Gold Dot 124+P. JHP ammo is made for handgun velocities. 147 gains less speed from the longer barrel so there is less chance of shedding it's jacket. The other choice is a bonded bullet like the Gold Dots. My 995TS has been flawless and fun to shoot. I have other rifles, but would not hesitate to use the 9mm carbine to defend myself. FYI, the 20 round Red Ball mags are a great addition to the Hi Point.
Wanderling
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Well, if the bottom really falls out on everything, it won't be like the Night of the Living Dead, more likely the National Guard and Army units everywhere, curfew, armored vehicles on intersections, and the total ban on guns.
Anyway, to me a likely SHTF situation is something localized - someone breaking into your house, or a rioting crowd. Ferguson or New Orleans.
My #1 defense against both would be geography.
That said, a Glock is - IMHO - a significantly better SD weapon for inside the house than an AR, and possibly even better than a shotgun.
It easier to quickly maneuver in tight spaces, easier to control, easier to keep locked up yet quickly available, the 9mm SD round is plenty powerful at short distances, and I never felt that a 17 rd mag didn't give me enough firepower. And you can of course go with .40 or 45 or even 10mm if you feel you need a bazooka.
Where a long gun is more desirable is in case of a violent riot, when you're trying to keep assailants from entering your home in first place. At the range I can reliably hit the target with my G17 at 50 yards, but it's significantly easier to do with a rifle, especially when your heart is pumping at double the rate. But again, realistically, you're not going to have battlefield-like shootouts at extended ranges, so a shotgun may again be the preferred solution - with slugs, it's accurate enough to at least 100 yards, and when loaded with shot, it's a very deadly weapon at short to medium range.
I honestly don't see much added value in a 9mm carbine as a HD weapon over a good 9mm pistol. For fun & plinking, sure. But for HD, my preferred gun is my G17 or G26, since I own both. If I could only have one, I'd get a G26 and a couple 17 rd mags. A lot of people, myself included, shoot G26 as well as the full size G17.
But then, what would a $700 AR15 9mm carbine offer over a $300 Hi-Point 9mm carbine ?
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Been following this thread:
Referencing back to my earlier post (#15) ......9mm carbine "no added value"...ya; we can't have full auto....... but ... what about the H&K MP5 and Uzi; and who can forget the Sten,Sterling, MP-38 and 42.
With 4 points of contact (hands, cheek and shoulder) and a red dot.......one can "pump out" 3-5 round "bursts" from a Beretta CX4 Storm at 300-400rpm....getting tight fist size groups at 40-50 yds.
20-30 round factory mags and can be paired up with a Beretta 92.
Referencing back to my earlier post (#15) ......9mm carbine "no added value"...ya; we can't have full auto....... but ... what about the H&K MP5 and Uzi; and who can forget the Sten,Sterling, MP-38 and 42.
With 4 points of contact (hands, cheek and shoulder) and a red dot.......one can "pump out" 3-5 round "bursts" from a Beretta CX4 Storm at 300-400rpm....getting tight fist size groups at 40-50 yds.
20-30 round factory mags and can be paired up with a Beretta 92.
Wanderling
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Not to start an argument, but none of these weapons would make sense for their intended users - or be made at all - without full auto. Their whole reason for being was to provide a lot of close to medium range suppressive firepower in a small package. Half of these guns don't even shoot in semi-auto in the original military version.
As to the "added value", my question wasn't on the added value of 9mm carbines as a class, but more on why to choose an AR15 carbine - which is pretty much guaranteed to cost at least around $600 - over a $300 Hi-Point carbine, in something that's a pretty niche market.
The MP5's "Navy trigger group" model( for we all know who
) was 4 position (safe, semi, 2/3 shot burst and full)The Uzi was safe, semi and full..............
My reference to the others was the long use of 9mm in FMJ in a shoulder fired weapon..... and as I stated you can get off 3-5 round fist size groups pretty quickly ..... full auto is great to break an ambush or make a movie.......
..... plus the CX4 with a 16'' barrel ( giving you between 400-600 fpe from a 9mm; depending on ammo) is shorter (4" IIRC) and lighter than a M-4 with the stock collapsed.
My Beretta CX4 cost me about $550...... about the same as a Sig 226 at the time of purchase.
No argument from me ....... I've got both ARs and 9mm carbines.... IMO the 9mm is a niche weapon.... but as a Beretta 92 fan.... it's IMHO a "good niche"
That said if I could have only one......it would be an AR
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Why?
It's simple. Pistol caliber carbines are gangs of fun to shoot. I'd REALLY like an M1 Carbine, but those are over my head. UZIs are pricey, too. With the Kel tec I've got a good quality gun that doesn't break the bank.
It's simple. Pistol caliber carbines are gangs of fun to shoot. I'd REALLY like an M1 Carbine, but those are over my head. UZIs are pricey, too. With the Kel tec I've got a good quality gun that doesn't break the bank.
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I keep clicking on this thread hoping to hear good news...
I've just joined the AR world (I know, I'm a relic...but I couldn't pass up the price. Thanks, Pres. Trump.), and to be honest, I think I would shoot a 9mm version more.
For those stating just to get a different carbine, don't forget the utility of the weapon being the same except for caliber. For instance, my ladyfriend (and shooting buddy) does most of her shooting with a Glock and an M&P Sport .223. She's not a "gun" person, but she likes to shoot. The 9mm version would keep it familiar for her.
I mostly just want one though. Cleaning a Camp 9 is a pain in the behind.
I've just joined the AR world (I know, I'm a relic...but I couldn't pass up the price. Thanks, Pres. Trump.), and to be honest, I think I would shoot a 9mm version more.
For those stating just to get a different carbine, don't forget the utility of the weapon being the same except for caliber. For instance, my ladyfriend (and shooting buddy) does most of her shooting with a Glock and an M&P Sport .223. She's not a "gun" person, but she likes to shoot. The 9mm version would keep it familiar for her.
I mostly just want one though. Cleaning a Camp 9 is a pain in the behind.
sbowenjr
Member
I have been thinking about a 9mm carbine. I am leaning towards the storm. I think my wife would like it. She is left handed. My thoughts are steel plates for the targets and cheap red dot scope. Couple of magazines and a whole lot of fun.
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