Higher charges shoot lower

stang68

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I loaded 357 cases with 6.1 gr of Unique under a 158 gr LSWC and some more 357 cases with 4.5 gr of Unique under the same bullet. At the range, at 10 yds, in a Model 19 with 4" barrel, the lighter loads grouped around the bullseye while the heavier loads grouped significantly lower. Is this normal, and if so why would that be?
 
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I loaded 357 cases with 6.1 gr of Unique under a 158 gr LSWC and some more 357 cases with 4.5 gr of Unique under the same bullet. At the range, at 10 yds, in a Model 19 with 4" barrel, the lighter loads grouped around the bullseye while the heavier loads grouped significantly lower. Is this normal, and if so why would that be?
 
With a larger powder charge, the bullet leaves the barrel faster, allowing less time for muzzle jump prior to the exit of the bullet. This is not scientific, but it is the best explanation I can find. It is also the opposite of what rifles do.
 
A larger powder charge with a given weight of bullet will give higher velocity, causing greater recoil, and making the bullet impact lower. The reason is reduced "bore dwell" or amount of time the bullet transits the bore.
 
The reason this phenomenon has the opposite effect in rifles is because of the much greater gun mass-to-bullet mass ratio compared to pistols.
 
Thanks to all. I thought I remembered reading about this topic before on this forum but couldn't find it. I guess I need to start making entries in my range log about what I shoot when I make sight adjustments.
 
I wish to express my thanks for the answers, also. This is a great place
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That explains why those frangible rounds hit so low. Y'all wizards are impressive!
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This phenomenon is classicaly illustrated in .38 Special J-frames with fixed front sights "regulated" for the old-fashioned 158 gr. lead "police" load. Faster projectiles hit lower, for the reasons previously mentioned. I think that even current issue guns with fixed sights are still so "regulated."
 
Increased recoil tends to make the bullet hit higher and higher velocity tends to make the bullet hit lower(because it leaves the barrel sooner).These are conflicting forces.

I have seen the opposite occur.The bottom line is...the gun,shooter,barrel length,load,etc,etc can make the reverse of what you expect to happen.
 
.44 Special
255 grain SWC G/C@ 685 FPS
255 grain SWC G/C@ 835 FPS
The slower load will print 1 1/2"-2" higher @ 10 yards. The info posted by the others above is all correct.
 
Every load,no matter what bullet,powder charge or velocity would hit in precisely the same place if it were not for recoil.The effect of recoil vs barrel dwell time is like a tug of war.Which force will be stronger than the other?

I knew a shooter who emphatically stated the opposite to be true....he swore that a bullet driven faster would hit higher because of recoil.He was able to give examples to support his conclusions and he became quite exasperated with me when I said "sometimes".
 
Originally posted by john traveler:
A larger powder charge with a given weight of bullet will give higher velocity, causing greater recoil, and making the bullet impact lower. The reason is reduced "bore dwell" or amount of time the bullet transits the bore.

+1
This is about the best I've heard it explained.
 
This is an interesting thread, but there's a part of this problem that no one has addressed. The relative points of impact of bullets at different velocities depend entirely on where in their trajectories you look.

Although the slower bullet will be launched at a steeper angle than the faster bullet, it will also be falling faster at any given distance than the faster bullet. Thus, the slower bullet will have a more arched trajectory than the faster bullet. At some point the two trajectories will cross and the points of impact will be the same. At any point closer than that, the slower bullet will strike the target above the faster bullet, but beyond that point the reverse will be true. So the answer to the question is really "It depends where you look.".

This phenomenon will be true of both rifles and handguns and has nothing to do with the ratio of bullet to gun mass.

Also, if you clamped a gun in vise to eliminate the effects of recoil on trajectory, the bullets would not hit in the same place; the slower bullet would always be below the faster moving one due to gravity.
 
HK,

I was making a reference to very close range when I said they would strike at the same place.At such a close range,trajectory would not be an issue.

My point was simply that recoil is the variable which throws consistancy out the window when it comes to iron clad rules.Weight of gun,length of barrel,grip strength of shooter,etc,etc....all have an effect that can alter the effect of barrel dwell time.
 
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You know I'm real pleased to see you mentioned grip strength of shooter. I am always in awe of these tough guys who say that shooting an 11oz J- Frame with 38+P or 357 is " "No Problem" I find that hard to believe and always think they are limp wristing it. Then they follow up with how multiple shots in quick follow up are no problem. Wow! I'm 62 years old, weigh 181 lbs and can deadlift 275lbs. I want to weep every time I fire my S&W 342 Ti 11oz gun with +P.
 
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