History of the .22/32 Kit Guns - edited 6/20/14

[oldnavynukespook]

John, very nice article but in your second paragraph, I believe the little M-frame Ladysmith .22 was the smallest hand ejector and certainly worthy of mention.

 

[BigBill]

Boy so much stuff to know.

 

[Smee78]

I liked it, I also have a pre 34 and also a 34. They are always in the range bag, the kids love them.

 

[PALADIN85020]

John, very nice article but in your second paragraph, I believe the little M-frame Ladysmith .22 was the smallest hand ejector and certainly worthy of mention.

You are quite correct. However, with my space limitations, I really don't want to get into an analysis of all the (seven?) frame sizes that have developed over the years, and compare M, I, K, N, L, J frames etc., etc. I re-wrote that paragraph so as to concentrate only on the I-frame and ignore the rest. This is a necessarily narrow look at the origins of the frame first used for the .22/32 Kit Guns. Your comment made me re-focus on that. Again, the M-frame Ladysmiths were cute, little, and charming, but would be an unnecessary digression from the theme of this article. Thanks, though!

John

 

[handejector]

Some completed guns were not shipped until after the war, at which point they were upgraded with the new hammer safety block and shipped with a combination of pre-war and post-war features.

John,
I don't believe that.
It is pretty well accepted that there was very little, IF anything, left in the vaults of ANY of the gun manufacturers during the War. Do you actually think there were neat little 22 revolvers sitting there when dealers were cut off from new guns for about 5 years? The factories were not restricted from selling any guns the Govt did not want, just like they were not restricted from doing service work/repairs for the public during the War.
All the factories were able to move lots of turkeys! If the Brits didn't get them for the looming invasion by Hitler in the summer of 40, dealers would have taken anything the factories would sell.
So, post war guns were made with pre war parts if any were on hand. If parts were needed, they still had all the tooling to make them, but of course they would be made in the pre war style till models were revised and new dies, jigs, and tooling could be built.
But I don't believe there were any desirable guns sitting in the vault during the War.

There is no "yoke cut", it was stamped on the frame side of the yoke hinge.

The cut in the frame that the yoke recesses into IS called the "yoke cut". A couple of pics are below, which are page 169 (last line) in a book called History of Smith & Wesson by a fellow called Jinks, and page 429 in a little book called SCSW by Supica and Nahas. But they could be wrong.
A yoke is not a hinge. They both pivot, but they have different names because they have slightly different functions.

 

[TAROMAN]

Should this sentence not read "until World War One halted production temporarily."?
------------quote
Production of the various .32 I-frames continued until World War II halted production temporarily.
-------------end quote

 

[Hondo44]

The cut in the frame that the yoke recesses into IS called the "yoke cut". A couple of pics are below, which are page 169 (last line) in a book called History of Smith & Wesson by a fellow called Jinks, and page 429 in a little book called SCSW by Supica and Nahas. But they could be wrong.
A yoke is not a hinge. They both pivot, but they have different names because they have slightly different functions.

Lee,

Books wrong?? Only when I quote them...but that's why we have you to keep us straight.

I still have a lot to learn...and these days, a lot to re-learn!

Thanks!

John,

Sorry for the bum steer.

 

[PALADIN85020]

John,
I don't believe that.
It is pretty well accepted that there was very little, IF anything, left in the vaults of ANY of the gun manufacturers during the War. Do you actually think there were neat little 22 revolvers sitting there when dealers were cut off from new guns for about 5 years? The factories were not restricted from selling any guns the Govt did not want, just like they were not restricted from doing service work/repairs for the public during the War.
All the factories were able to move lots of turkeys! If the Brits didn't get them for the looming invasion by Hitler in the summer of 40, dealers would have taken anything the factories would sell.
So, post war guns were made with pre war parts if any were on hand. If parts were needed, they still had all the tooling to make them, but of course they would be made in the pre war style till models were revised and new dies, jigs, and tooling could be built.
But I don't believe there were any desirable guns sitting in the vault during the War.

Lee, I don't pretend to have your expertise with Smith & Wessons. BUT, a gun exists that meets my description - and I have it. Here is what Roy says about it:

"... John, in the case of this kit gun I cannot be specific as you blocked out one of the numbers. However I can tell you that serial numbers falling between 534501 - 534532 and 534563 - 534586 were all shipped in 1940 and would have full prewar characteristics. The serial numbers 534533 - 534562 were shipped in 1950 & 1951 your guns is in this group and they were a mix of old and new parts. All the revolvers after serial number 534586 were shipped also as post World War II revolvers. I hope that this answers your question. Roy
__________________
Roy G. Jinks
Historian, Smith & Wesson"

The gun in question has the pre-war frame, barrel, and cylinder. The frame, barrel and cylinder are all marked with the serial number, which is a 1940 number, one of a batch of 29 that Roy mentions above. I would think that a matching frame, barrel and cylinder constitute a de facto complete gun; and it's a matter of record that this and 28 others were kept at the factory until the early 1950s. Mine was upgraded with the hammer block safety and a new lockplate incorporating the slot for it.

My statement was "Some completed guns were not shipped until after the war, at which point they were upgraded with the new hammer safety block and shipped with a combination of pre-war and post-war features."

Based on Roy's comments and the characteristics of my gun, I stand by that statement. Now I also suspect that there were no huge numbers of these guns, but respectfully, 29 guns constitutes "some." I rest my case.

Best,
John

 

[PALADIN85020]

Should this sentence not read "until World War One halted production temporarily."?
------------quote
Production of the various .32 I-frames continued until World War II halted production temporarily.
-------------end quote

Nope. I said, and meant WWII. On page 149 of The History of Smith & Wesson (1977 printing), I quote Roy Jinks:

"32 HAND EJECTOR THIRD MODEL
Incorporated 1911, produced until 1942. Serial number range 263,001 to 536,584." He goes on to say that the.32 Hand Ejector was placed back into production after the war in 1949.

John

 

[handejector]

John,
It is far more likely that 29 frames were numbered when the War stopped civilian production.
That block of 29 was skipped in 1940 production. That is no big deal because we know guns were produced out of serial number order all the time. It probably just depended which rack of frames was rolled to the fitters by some young guy that was never told to keep them in order.
Nothing in Roy's statement refutes my position.
Barrels and cylinders were numbered to guns till 1955-57, so how do you know if those Kit Gun barrels and cylinders were numbered in 1940 or 1950?
Roy even supports my position when he states the guns are mixes of pre and post war parts. They could not have been built till post war parts were available. I don't think they made post war parts till after the War.
If a frame already had a barrel and cylinder fitted, it would only take a few minutes to assemble a gun and send it to the vault. Time/Money/Material had already been invested in that gun, and they were too frugal to leave that dead capital sitting in a state that could be turned into cash by investing only a few minutes per gun at a time when they were literally faced with bankruptcy because of the Brit debt of $1,000,000, being demanded.

We know that the 32/20 which had become TURKEYS sold out in this period. We know that all Target 38s and 32s sold out. So, you tell me: What is ANY logical reason for 29 Kit Guns to be retained in the vault when dealers were screaming for anything the factory would sell?

 

[bmg60]

John
I agree with lee your gun was not put together until 1950 it was prewar parts until that time. Just because it has a prewar number does not mean it was made up in 1940.
Jim

 

[handejector]

Nope. I said, and meant WWII. On page 149 of The History of Smith & Wesson (1977 printing), I quote Roy Jinks:

"32 HAND EJECTOR THIRD MODEL
Incorporated 1911, produced until 1942. Serial number range 263,001 to 536,584." He goes on to say that the.32 Hand Ejector was placed back into production after the war in 1949.

John

There again, omitting a fact does not mean something did not occur. There was no civilian production during part of WW I. The Govt seized (nationalized) the plant in 1918 because they were not satisfied with production and management. They had been on management's back for quite some time before that, harping about needing more production. They returned control in Jan, 1919. I doubt the Govt was producing any 32 HEs in that period.

 

[PALADIN85020]

There again, omitting a fact does not mean something did not occur. There was no civilian production during part of WW I. The Govt seized (nationalized) the plant in 1918 because they were not satisfied with production and management. They had been on management's back for quite some time before that, harping about needing more production. They returned control in Jan, 1919. I doubt the Govt was producing any 32 HEs in that period.

All that you say is true, Lee. I will modify the reference to the .32 HEs because of the WWI takeover of S&W by the government, which is well documented. By the same token "I believe" and "I doubt" do not provide proof positive. Someone once said on this board that he didn't believe S&W ever did a high polish Model 64. Remember that I provided one for you to inspect at the Tucson SWCA meeting a few years back? And that it was lettered? And that S&W didn't ship it until 11 years after its manufacture? A picture of it is posted on my S&W album here. The statement I believe in is "Never say never with Smith & Wesson."

I think we all need to hitch up our britches and wait until Roy can get around to providing the factory letter on my transition gun - should be interesting!

Best regards,
John

 

[handejector]

OK, why do YOU think guns would sit in the vault 5 years when dealers would buy anything S&W would ship them?

 

[WaMike]

Dang it! Now I want one!

 

[PALADIN85020]

OK, why do YOU think guns would sit in the vault 5 years when dealers would buy anything S&W would ship them?

A. Partially completed - priorities suddenly shifted to getting Victory models out the door. Put in a back room until found in the move into new quarters on Roosevelt Ave.

B. The British didn't want them - .22s were not much use against the anticipated Nazi invasion - Operation Sea Lion.

C. The fact that there were 29 of them with the same history, not listed as parts, but guns.

D. And last, but not least, **** happens.

Again, just because "I think," "I believe" or "I doubt" are not conclusive, that applies to me, also. Until we get a peek at what Roy finds in the records, it's conjecture, one way or the other. We'll see. I've inspected the gun carefully, and all parts with the exception of the obviously replaced sideplate look like they were carefully mated and not thrown together from a bin of parts.

Tell ya what though, Lee - Let's each put $5 on the table, and if Roy can tell us (eventually) with certainty that this gun was held for 10+ years complete or partially complete with frame, barrel, and cylinder mated - or not - in the factory letter - one of us will be so much richer! If he's not sure, then we will simply have unverified conjecture. Game on?



John

 

[handejector]

Some completed guns were not shipped until after the war,

A. Partially completed - priorities suddenly shifted to getting Victory models out the door.

Never mind.
This will be my last post here.
We seem to be wandering all over the field. I said no completed guns were sitting in the vault. I'm looking at a Kit Gun with post war magna grips (there were no I frame magnas before the war) and post war thumb latch, so it was NOT a complete gun before the war.
If it had been a complete gun before the war, why didn't they sell it in 45 or 46 when dealers were driving them crazy for guns, and they even spelled out their projected production plans in the AMCs? They held it FOUR or FIVE more years? I guess it could take that long to check in the vault to see if they had anything they could sell.

B. The British didn't want them - .22s were not much use against the anticipated Nazi invasion - Operation Sea Lion.

I said Dealers were clamoring for guns.

C. The fact that there were 29 of them with the same history, not listed as parts, but guns.

What history?
Listed where?
They are in a block of numbers. That block of numbers would exist whether they were not ever used, used in 39-40, or used in 49-50.

D. And last, but not least, **** happens.

Yep, all the time, even on the internet and in print.

I just wanted to clarify something for you and for other readers.
Believe what you want to. Oh, wait.......

 

[JSR III]

In 1910, a San Francisco gun dealer, Phil Bekeart, discussed with S&W the possibility of a .22 long rifle target revolver built on the .32 I-frame. He was so convinced that this would be a good seller that he prevailed on the company to build and sell him 1,000 guns. Accordingly, S&W tooled up, and by the spring of 1911, they began production. However, only 292 of these ".22/32" Target Models were completed and sold, as demand did not meet the expectations of Mr. Bekeart. In fact, additional production was not initiated until 1914. The Bekeart guns represented the first marriage of the .22 caliber and the small I-frame.

Actually when Bekeart asked the company to produce a .22 on the larger .32 frame, they were unwilling to do so due to the cost of the retooling. The only way that the company would complete the order was if Bekeart ordered 1000 pieces. Believing that this new gun would sell like hotcakes, Bekeart went ahead and ordered the guns. The company retooled and began producing the Bekeart model or the .22/32 HFT as it came to be known. Bekeart only received 294 (not 292 as has been previously reported) of this new model in 6 shipments from 30 pieces on June 7, 1911 to 34 pieces on October 13, 1911. As a new model, S&W decided to number the bottom of the left stock panel as each gun was assembled and this process continued for the first 3000 produced. The guns were not assembled in serial number order so therefore there is no direct correlation between the stock number and the serial number. The initial run of 1000 actually turned out to be 1044 pieces as the factory always ran extra in case of any defects. The run began with serial number 138226 and the Bekeart shipped guns were between 138227 and 139275.

S&W actually sold more than the 294 and the balance of the guns in the initial run of 1044 were distributed through S&W's normal distribution channels.

The gun became a cataloged item in 1915 and although the SCSW reports this to be around serial number 160000, I own 163467 that actually shipped in May of 1912. Chambers were recessed in 1935 at around serial number 525600 and the kit gun was born from this design at around serial number 525670.


While I don't expect you to include all of this information in your article, I provide it to clarify a few Bekeart details. I think that the fact that S&W wasn't willing to make this revolver unless Bekeart was willing to commit to a 1000 gun order is an important fact in the development. Bekeart was so confident that he could sell 1000 of this model, he went ahead and made the order. Although the gun was popular enough that the original 1000 guns did sell, they did not sell through Bekeart. Had he not had the courage of his convictions, the .22/32 might not have been built. Also, therefore without this request, the kit gun may never have been produced.

 

[Hondo44]

The key points of logic to me in support of my belief that the 30 guns in question (there are 30 numbers not 29) were not completed before the war and therefore not shipped then, are:

We know many transitional guns were sold after the war with several pre war parts like Service stocks with pre war checkering line count per inch, sharp cornered borders, flat silver medallions, and pre war notched barrels with patent dates, large extractor rod knobs, and thumb pieces. Some transitionals are even reported w/o the new safety slide bar hammer block.

This kit gun has a pre war style barrel notched for large knob BUT w/o patent dates, post war thumb piece, and stocks. If it had been completely built before the war it would only have pure pre war parts and patent dates on the barrel.

Since we know the factory routinely used pre war parts after the war, if it was rebuilt after the war to add the hammer block, the perfectly good pre war parts would not have been discarded and replaced w/post war parts.

Since we also know patent dated pre war barrels were used after the war when in inventory, a mounted and blued pre war barrel would not have been removed, then re-blued and re-installed just to remove the patent dates.

I also agree any completed guns in inventory would have been sold as built during and after the war to dealers clamoring for product.

Therefore I believe these guns were built from pre war forged and serial #'d incomplete frames, and a mixture of incomplete/un-blued pre war barrels and extractor rods, and post war thumb piece and stocks. It's likely that all 30 guns in this serial # range are not exactly the same parts wise.

 

[PALADIN85020]

One final shot here (in the dark? ). This gun bears both "R" stamps on the barrel and extractor, and an "S" stamp near the bottom of the grip frame on the right side (see pictures).

The "R" standing for "Rework," it seems logical to me that this stamp would not be applied to parts, but to complete or near-complete guns that did not meet then-current standards, and which were marked for upgrading.

The "S" means the gun was upgraded to include the hammer block safety. This was common with some Victory models produced before the safety was added. There would have been no need for the "S" stamp if the gun was simply put together from parts. It implies there was existing lockwork which needed to be modified.

The fact that the gun bears some post-war parts is consistent with both stamps, indicating upgrading of an existing piece.

We'll let Roy be arbiter on this when we can see a factory letter.

Until then - to me, the issue is still up in the air. Call me stubborn if you will, but I've been right once or twice before!

Accordingly, I modified the original text so the situation dealing with this particular revolver is ambiguous. I shoulda been a politician.

John