Home Defense

[Keystone70]

I have watched the NY video several times. I don't know if it's me or what. The cop on the top left appears to be pointing (and shooting) away from the bg. The other one is shooting one handed as you said.

 

[blujax01]

I'll state a counterpoint to Bluejax01. BTW, Bluejax I attended Ohio State in the 70's and drove a cab to pay the bills while doing it so know the city pretty well and have many fond memories of C'bus. I also suspect that I'v'e been around the block a few more times than yourself.

First, you get what you pay for. Purchase cheap ammo and you can expect results that fall short of optimum. My Speer Gold Dots cost about a buck per round and are noted for their weight retention and resistance to clogging.

Second, spend some time at an indoor range shooting both full power Magnums and 38 spl. If you pay attention you'll note that the Magnums are distinctly louder with a very sharp crack. Heck, you may have others at the range complain your ammo is "too loud" and you are "disturbing them". In a home interior without any hearing protection in place IMO it's 100% certain that you cause some level of permanent damage to your hearing if you use full power Magnums. As someone with some hearing loss I can assure you that you don't want to do any needless damage to your hearing. Now, I won't say that 38 spl. or 38 +P won't also cause hearing damage, however I can assure they both will cause LESS hearing damage than a full house Magnum.

The final concern is penetation issues. In a lightly built frame house a 158 gn. 357 Magnum will blow through the walls almost as if they are paper. In a more heavily constructed home with a brick or stone exterior IMO a 125 gn. 357 Magnum won't retain enough energy to be terribly concerning. In almost any home today the interior walls won't provide much resistance at all to a fired bullet in either caliber unless it hits a stud. Key here is don't miss and don't shoot a caliber or bullet noted for penetration.

Sum up all of the above and IMO a 125 or 110 gn. 38 +P or standard pressure 38 spl. is a good balanced choice. Granted, neither has enough "power" to make up for a poor hit but almost all home invaders will actually flee if they are being shot.

I won't argue but while you were living the college life, I was on Parson's Avenue working at the Buckeye (Buckeye Steel for the uninitiated) 1977 - 1981, and hanging out after work on the near East side at Good Time Bobbie's and Joe's Hole.

The 125 grain 38+P you talk about? I just bought eight boxes at $16/50 for my M64. Remington 38+P SJHP at Vance's on Cleveland Ave. It's Police return ammo. That's $.32 per round. Retail is no more than $20 a box.

I practice monthly with both .38 and .357 putting a minimum of 50 rounds each downrange. I have been in Concealed Carry leagues where it is expected that you can make a fist-sized tight group of 50 rounds in almost total darkness and repeat it weekly.

I agree that a full house .357 load will cause hearing damage and I cannot speak to the possibility that a Police Remington 125 grain +P charge will cause any more or less damage. I seriously doubt that if the time comes I will be concerned about such things.

Oh and those years at The Buckeye along with 2 decades of sitting behind a drum kit between Marshall stacks has rendered me an expert on hearing loss.

Sincerely,

Alan

 

[alwslate]

This question seems to come up often but I really cannot understand
why. Someone enters your home and is trying to take your one and only
life and your primary concern is being a good neighbor followed by
ringing ears or too bright muzzle flash. If you fail to stop the threat the
world comes to an end for you. The 357 mag. with full power 125 gr HPs has an outstanding record for stopping power. Isn't your life
worth more to you than anything else?

 

[WR Moore]

Groo here
Glasser and Magsafe were made for the type of limitations you have stated.

Ah, no. They were designed to reduce the danger of ricochet (hence the term "Safety Slug"). I used Glasers to put down a statisically significant number of various types of critters and became very unhappy with the results. There is a definate lack of tissue penetration sufficient to significantly damage vital organs and structures from certain angles and if limbs of the body must be penetrated first. I had one break up on a front tooth of an attacking feral dog.

A friend also managed a ND with them (.38 Spl) that ended up embedded in a wall in the next apartment. The far wall. After perforating both drywall panels of the shared wall. Fortunately, there was no one home in the other apartment.

You're free to do as you please. I'll stick to conventional ammunition, thank you very much.

 

[vytoland]

HD ammo for your S&W model 686 = DEWC loaded @ about 850fps.

they come out "already expanded" and over penetration will not be an issue.

 

[Glenn H]

Hearing issue

Although some have made light of the blast issue the serious consideration isn't the potential loss of hearing long term. Tactically not being able to hear what is going on around you can be a life threatening problem.

As I said upthread, a guy I was partnered with decided not to carry .357 issue rounds because of the potential for the blast impact on his hearing in a tactical situation (and this was years before 'tactical' became verb). He wanted to hear if something was going on, especially if the bad guy was giving up.

Now working a suburban PD is different than grabbing a pistol at 2AM but still...the situation still stands.

But, once again, free advice is worth every penny.

 

[Dave Ki]

Anyone for +p 9mm? But I agree with SMSgt they come in they will get the first thing comes to hand.9mm but stuff happens.

 

[SMSgt]

At the point that you feel you have to pull the trigger to save your life, are your neighbors really going to be a concern? If so, maybe a baseball bat would be a better option.

 

[blujax01]

At the point that you feel you have to pull the trigger to save your life, are your neighbors really going to be a concern? If so, maybe a baseball bat would be a better option.

I like my neighbors. As I stated above, I can't cover all of the scenarios but if my preparations help prevent errant rounds from entering their space, why wouldn't I do so?

Besides I never could hit the screwball.

 

[pete950]

Im with vytoland on the hard cast full wadcutter.
But I'm a big fan of the wadcutter. If you are determined on a hollow point then I would go with the street proven 158 grain SWCHP and next the Speer 135 Gold dot. Mags in house to much flash and way to loud.

 

[NashvilleMike]

My vote is with Cerberus62. Like him, I'm a fan of the .38 FBI load, that's what's in my nightstand gun, a Model 66.

 

[scooter123]

Glen H brings up a point that using a Magnum will immediately cause a signifigant and temporary hearing loss and this can be a distinct Tactical impediment. He's quite right about this, your ears will be ringing badly enough that you won't be able to hear footsteps coming down the hall. However, I strongly suspect that this will also be the case if you use any of the common centerfire calibers. The simple fact is that gunshots in an enclosed interior WILL cause a loss in your hearing and even with a mild 38 spl. such as a wadcutter it will likely be enough that you won't hear footsteps or slamming doors.

Basically, if you are forced to defend yourself in your home you should pre-plan your tactics with the assumption that you won't be able to hear. It's either that or keep some electronic hearing protection with your gun and practice putting that in place before even picking up your gun. Note, Vulcan Logic would indicate that the second option is the wiser choice even if it takes an extra 10 or 15 seconds. Being able to actually hear during a gunfight can provide a HUGE tactical advantage.

Bullet types. I've seen several postings recomending Semi Jacketed Hollow Points and full Wadcutters. Folks, both of these bullet types are ancient designs that have a notable history of failure. If you really value your life spend the money for a premium Bonded Hollow Point such as Speer's Gold Dot, Winchester's Ranger-T or PDX, or one of the other high end premium defense loads. In both static testing and real world reports they have a MUCH LOWER rate of failure to either expand or penetrate.

Caliber choice. I've stated it previously, the 357 Magnum is too loud and too powerful to use for Defense. Take a lesson from the FBI and other large law enforcement agencies, they have spent a lot of money and manpower determining what is best for Defense. What they have all determined is that a rather loud caliber that can generate in excess of 700 ft.lbs. of energy at the muzzle is a poor choice. It creates over penetration concerns, training and accuracy issues, and too much liability over impact on hearing and the general public. Fact is the 357 Magnum is a great hunting caliber but for defense it's difficult to shoot well with in rapid fire and loud enough to deafen you for life. If you want something more powerful than the 38 +P then purchase a model 625 in 45 ACP. You'll not only get more power but you'll also get a honking big fat bullet.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I have watched the NY video several times. I don't know if it's me or what. The cop on the top left appears to be pointing (and shooting) away from the bg. The other one is shooting one handed as you said.

You heard for only 1 day that most of the people shot in NY we actually shot by the Police, then the reports went away. I guess the Mayor made it go away because he says only the Military and Police should have guns but it was the Police that did most of the damage. That doesn't fit into his agenda...

No, I am not bashing the Police in any way, I'm only stating the facts as they happened.

 

[ElectroMotive]

No offense, but there has been a bunch of bad information posted in this thread and its mostly due to old wives tales, stories passed down, and the regurgitation of fiction.

Understand that any bullet with good terminal performance will zip sheetrock walls. You can choose to use ammo with poor terminal performance to hopefully reduce hazard for misses, but that means more rounds must be fired to increase incapacitation. Its a no-win situation.

The best choice is to find a round with good terminal performance. Good terminal performance is defined as a minimum of 12 inches of penetration in flesh with robust expansion throughhard and soft barriers. Newer, well designed ammo does just this, while older ammo styles dont. Its not a knock against older ammo designs, they just didnt factor penetration standards and expansion through barriers.

Good terminal ballistic performance is born of bullet design and construction, not velocity. Take for example the 135+p Speer Gold Dot in .38special at 850fps and the same bullet at the same weight traveling at 1000fps. There will be virtually no difference in performance. Sure you can get bullets in higher grain weights, higher belocities, and/or both, but at what cost? More recoil, more blast, and the corresponding reduction in follow up shot times? The badguy(s) wont be killed quicker or deader.


I refer to Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness by SA Urey Patrick of the FBI-FTU/BRU.

 

[CoMF]

Sure you can get bullets in higher grain weights, higher belocities, and/or both, but at what cost? More recoil, more blast, and the corresponding reduction in follow up shot times? The badguy(s) wont be killed quicker or deader.


Ofcourse there will be those that will deride me, because .357mag is more powerful, has more energy, more knockdown power, more stopping power, better street results, blah-blah. I will refer them to Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness by SA Urey Patrick of the FBI-FTU/BRU, but few will look it up, much less read it

Does it penetrate to a minimum of 12"? Is it a reliable expander under a majority of circumstances? Can the person shoot it accurately? If the answer to all of these questions is "yes," then I really don't care what caliber someone uses. Incidentally, I'm not a fan of .357 Mag for my own personal defensive use.

I hate having to repeat old chestnuts, but: "Stick with the most powerful caliber with acceptable terminal performance that you can handle and can shoot accurately.

Additionally: "Don't condemn others for their preferred choices" This maxim goes a long way towards promoting civility on internet forums.

 

[duppie]

New 686 4" owner here, recently I have been going through / researching the options for various ammunition types for various situations.

My question to the forum is this:

What is the best ammunition for home defense in an urban setting? My primary concern is the proximity of my neighbors (and therefore over penetration). After some internet research I purchased a box of Winchester .38 +P hollow points.

First, are .38 +P hollow point the ideal round?

Second, when I got home I noticed that I grabbed the Jacketed hollow point. What are the primary differences between jacketed and non-jacketed and is the .38 spl +P jacketd hollow point still suitable for home defense (in an urban setting).

Thanks in advance for you input.

When considering the very same scenario recently, I opted to load Hornady's critical defense .357 125 grain FTX ammo in my primary HD Snubby. It also circumvents New Jersey's idiotic hollow point transport laws because it is not strictly a JHP round.

 

[CoMF]

To the Mod: Duly noted, and I apologize if any of my statements could be construed as inflammatory.

To the others: Out of respect for the thread and OP, I'll decline from commenting any further as I don't want to see this discussion get derailed. Please accept my apologies.

 

[CoMF]

To answer the OP's questions in order (and stay on-topic):


In the context of the potential for penetrating through common building materials, almost all bullet designs will penetrate them with little difficulty, so there really isn't a "best" choice other than what you can personally shoot accurately as a solid COM hit is preferable to a miss, i.e. if you can hit your target, you're less likely to damage someone or something beyond it. If I had to make any recommendations, I would advise against using rounds like Glaser or Magsafe due to their inadequate terminal performance which has been well documented.


When you say "ideal," what do you mean exactly? If you're asking whether a .38 hollow point will "do the job," the answer is a qualified "yes" provided it can penetrate a minimum of 12" and expand under most circumstances and you're doing your part as well by maintaining proficiency with your chosen "launching platform."


As for the functional differences between jacketed and non-jacketed bullets, ammo manufacturers typically engineer the jacket to act as a mechanical means of damaging tissue (e.g. Winchester's "Ranger T") or as a way of ensuring bullet integrity and maintained weight through intermediate barriers (e.g. Speer's Gold Dot) whereas unjacketed hollowpoints like, say, Remington's iteration of the classic "FBI load" rely on their relatively soft lead composition to aid expansion. Either design will easily penetrate common building materials and have the potential to retain enough energy to wound and/or kill a person beyond them. Sadly, this is just one of those things that "is what it is" and further serves to remind us that it is absolutely necessary to maintain proficiency with one's chosen firearm.