I agree with you on the bolt gun part. Be cautious on the M1A looking for accuracy as you may have to do some work to get there. I know about that from personal experience.
Horror Story: M&P 10 and S&W Customer Service
- Thread starter henschman
- Start date
I agree with you on the bolt gun part. Be cautious on the M1A looking for accuracy as you may have to do some work to get there. I know about that from personal experience.
MichiganScott
Member
It is a Smith & Wesson forum, but the Smith & Wesson corporation has nothing to do with it. Stick around long enough and it is obvious that they do give a rip and often take care of owners when the owner was the cause of the problem/damage.
I've seen them and at one time had one for a shot gun. There is still too much of a possibility of scoring a rifled barrel for my comfort. I usually find broken wire from my brass brushes every time I use one when cleaning. The same thing can happen with stainless.
Although not as effective as lapping,J-B bore cleaning paste would be a much better choice for smoothing the barrel.
ShellShock
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Well This issue has stirred quite a dust funnel over at AR15.com. Ten pages worth.
So if S&W does not play this right, it WILL go viral, and WILL spill over into all firearms that they sell.
You multiply AR15.com by how many other boards and sites there are, people that tweet, etc and they might as well be highpoint at that point.
So if S&W does not play this right, it WILL go viral, and WILL spill over into all firearms that they sell.
You multiply AR15.com by how many other boards and sites there are, people that tweet, etc and they might as well be highpoint at that point.
They didn't refuse to sell me a barrel because of any liability reasons... they made it very clear to me that it is their policy to not sell barrels to anyone, period. If you shoot yours out, they won't sell you one either. You can call and ask them if you'd like them to confirm this. I think I already posted their number in this thread.
This isn't about liability... it is about poor product support and customer service. If they were just refusing to sell for liability reasons, it would be no big deal... I'd just call them back on my girlfriend's phone and tell them I need a new barrel because I'd like a spare, or I shot mine out.
I heard dat! There is a beautiful used custom with stainless match barrel hanging in my LGS for 2500$. Will it shoot? God knows? Fact is, I am just not gonna spend that money without shooting it first.
Back to topic and S&W, yes, they have missed the hit here! What do you think this thing really costs them to build? If they are at $990 on Grabagun, then someone is making 10% at least. Which places dealer cost at $900. What does it cost them to make? Well If they are not making 30% or more that is an issue so we will call it $600,k so probablt a couple hundred more than a run of mill AR.
A .223 barrel on an AR can vary on retail from $79 to $500 or so, but a decent one can be had for $129. Now I realize a .308 may cost a bit more based upon DPMS pricing, but not that much, they are not that special.
So what do you figure a barrel cost Smith? SQUAT if over $200 at whatever quantity they buy. Get my drift?
A .223 barrel on an AR can vary on retail from $79 to $500 or so, but a decent one can be had for $129. Now I realize a .308 may cost a bit more based upon DPMS pricing, but not that much, they are not that special.
So what do you figure a barrel cost Smith? SQUAT if over $200 at whatever quantity they buy. Get my drift?
Ringed barrel????
This sounds a lot like a 'ringed barrel' from a blockage or squib. People have told of several ways to ring a barrel, including having too much airspace or improper use of fillers in reloaded cartridges (which may a myth). A ringed barrel can be inaccurate, or weakened but not necessarily so. Some have said their ringed barrels still shot just fine. Anyway, I wonder if it came from the factory that way or whether it was 'ringed' through some shooting mishap. If the ring was as thick as a rifled land it sounds pretty drastic.
This sounds a lot like a 'ringed barrel' from a blockage or squib. People have told of several ways to ring a barrel, including having too much airspace or improper use of fillers in reloaded cartridges (which may a myth). A ringed barrel can be inaccurate, or weakened but not necessarily so. Some have said their ringed barrels still shot just fine. Anyway, I wonder if it came from the factory that way or whether it was 'ringed' through some shooting mishap. If the ring was as thick as a rifled land it sounds pretty drastic.
The way I understand it, the ring on a "ringed" barrel will be a blown out spot. My barrel has the opposite -- the ring appears to be a tight spot. Also, upon getting the rifle back and looking at it, I see the ring is actually closer to the muzzle than I originally thought. It looks to be right where the shoulder for the crush washer is. It also appears to be partially worn down or obliterated. It is less apparent than when I first saw it.
Iheart2fart
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With all this going on a company would probably make a killing selling back up barrels to all the concerned M&P 10 owners due to this thread and it being on every other gun website i can think of. Not saying its a bad thing bc its not. Smart people jump on oppurtunity when they see it
red dragon
Member
Op- Now that S&W has come out and said that they'll fix or replace parts on their rifles and handguns, please spend the same amount of time and energy "letting everyone know".
Iheart2fart
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I believe they will replace the upper for $900
Man that is reassuring, considering you can buy another one for $990!
To add insult to injury, according to the thread on AR15.com, the press release posted by S&W is not in effect!
Seems the OP did re-contact them about a repair and nobody knew anything about it! Then he was told it would be some time in the future before they do this, and with no date in sight!
Obviously the left hand has no clue what the right hand is doing!
Jesus man, this is not rocket science! This should be a total embarrassment for them as a company. If we did this in the car business we would be shot! Service parts for warranty and crash parts need to be available quickly! If a new motor blows up, one will be pulled off the assembly line!
bergermeister
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Quote from another forum:
By SWSupport:
Hi, We have released a new policy regarding repair work for any M&P Rifle that was not covered under the companies Warranty, or Lifetime Service Policy. Please see below:
Firearm Repair Services Policy
For firearms which are not covered by Smith & Wesson's Limited Warranty or Lifetime Service Policy, the company will repair (Subject to parts availability) any Smith & Wesson handgun purchased on or after February 1, 1989, and any M&P series rifle subject to the customer's payment of all repair and service fees and other conditions set forth herein.
All repairs and service work not covered by the limited Warranty or Lifetime Service Policy will be assessed a service charge and parts cost prior to any work being undertaken by Smith & Wesson. Those charges will be reflected on an invoice sent to the customer. The payment in full of the invoice must be received by Smith & Wesson before any service work will be performed.
Firearms for which the customer has declined to accept the quotation in the invoice will be returned to the customer in the condition in which the firearm was received.
Smith & Wesson reserves the right to refuse to repair any firearm, and the service policy does not extend to or include any repairs to firearms that have been altered or modified with after-market parts or accessories.
Nothing contained in this policy alters or changes any of the terms of the Limited Warranty or Lifetime Service Policy offered by Smith & Wesson.
If you have previously had a M&P Rifle that you were told could not be repaired because it was not covered, please contact our customer service department at : 1-800-331-0852 (USA)
Response Posted: Yesterday 3:32:20 PM EST
I called S&W just a few minutes ago to attempt to send my rifle back in for repair under this new policy, and spoke with a Customer Service rep named Joe. I told him about the policy stated in the quoted post, which he was not aware of. He spoke to someone briefly, and came back saying that this is something S&W is going to be doing at some indefinite time in the future, but that they are not currently set up to do this type of repair and that it is not an option. He reiterated that it is their policy not to perform in-house repairs at customer expense, and that they do not sell parts. He said that the e-mail folks may have jumped the gun in stating a policy that has not been implemented yet, and that if I sent my rifle back to them it would just sit there indefinitely until they implement this policy. So it appears I'm back to square one on this.
By SWSupport:
Hi, We have released a new policy regarding repair work for any M&P Rifle that was not covered under the companies Warranty, or Lifetime Service Policy. Please see below:
Firearm Repair Services Policy
For firearms which are not covered by Smith & Wesson's Limited Warranty or Lifetime Service Policy, the company will repair (Subject to parts availability) any Smith & Wesson handgun purchased on or after February 1, 1989, and any M&P series rifle subject to the customer's payment of all repair and service fees and other conditions set forth herein.
All repairs and service work not covered by the limited Warranty or Lifetime Service Policy will be assessed a service charge and parts cost prior to any work being undertaken by Smith & Wesson. Those charges will be reflected on an invoice sent to the customer. The payment in full of the invoice must be received by Smith & Wesson before any service work will be performed.
Firearms for which the customer has declined to accept the quotation in the invoice will be returned to the customer in the condition in which the firearm was received.
Smith & Wesson reserves the right to refuse to repair any firearm, and the service policy does not extend to or include any repairs to firearms that have been altered or modified with after-market parts or accessories.
Nothing contained in this policy alters or changes any of the terms of the Limited Warranty or Lifetime Service Policy offered by Smith & Wesson.
If you have previously had a M&P Rifle that you were told could not be repaired because it was not covered, please contact our customer service department at : 1-800-331-0852 (USA)
Response Posted: Yesterday 3:32:20 PM EST
I called S&W just a few minutes ago to attempt to send my rifle back in for repair under this new policy, and spoke with a Customer Service rep named Joe. I told him about the policy stated in the quoted post, which he was not aware of. He spoke to someone briefly, and came back saying that this is something S&W is going to be doing at some indefinite time in the future, but that they are not currently set up to do this type of repair and that it is not an option. He reiterated that it is their policy not to perform in-house repairs at customer expense, and that they do not sell parts. He said that the e-mail folks may have jumped the gun in stating a policy that has not been implemented yet, and that if I sent my rifle back to them it would just sit there indefinitely until they implement this policy. So it appears I'm back to square one on this.
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cobb
Member
I had sent in my unfired S&W M&P10 because I could see the high spots in the rifling from where the barrel was stamped ".308 1/10 5R". You can see some of the high spots in the attached picture.
Got the rifle back today, work order says they replaced barrel and firing pin spring. Looking on the barrel where it is stamped ".308 1/10 5R", if I remember correctly, the wording is now reversed on the new barrel. Before when holding the rifle, muzzle to your left and the butt to your right, you could read the print on the original barrel. Now that is reversed, the muzzle to the right and butt to the left to read the printing.
If anyone has a S&W M&P10, I would be curious as to how the stamping on your barrel reads.
Bottom line, at least for me, S&W had my rifle just over 4 weeks and made things right with no cost to me.
I am satisfied.
Got the rifle back today, work order says they replaced barrel and firing pin spring. Looking on the barrel where it is stamped ".308 1/10 5R", if I remember correctly, the wording is now reversed on the new barrel. Before when holding the rifle, muzzle to your left and the butt to your right, you could read the print on the original barrel. Now that is reversed, the muzzle to the right and butt to the left to read the printing.
If anyone has a S&W M&P10, I would be curious as to how the stamping on your barrel reads.
Bottom line, at least for me, S&W had my rifle just over 4 weeks and made things right with no cost to me.
I am satisfied.
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bergermeister
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I find this a bit remarkable in that this was supposedly an unfired gun.
Seems they replaced the barrel without question, so a KNOWN issue!!!!!
And a FP spring? Whats up with that? Oh well, if it was FU then at least they caught it.
That whole policy statement about repairs still gives me shivers, as they could potentially exclude ANYTHING that has any mods. Hopefully common sense will prevail here, or they might exclude 90 percent of the owners.
I still cannot figure out just how you build something to sell, then NOT service it OR sell parts to support it??????
*** is wrong with this picture? And for an overpriced AR?
1.5 years in and I am still no happy camper, but I am still working at finding ammo that will work in it. Yes I sent mine back and they were no help AT ALL!
Although we are on our own to get these things to work for us, mods are necessary and well documented. I did not WANT a project gun when I got it. Hindsight is 20/20!
Something is troublesome about these posts where people make accusations against a a company that's basically telling you not to cram a 50cal into a 308 that may spund stupid but so does trying to overbuild a weapon on youtube I swear it can be done affidavits! This is nuts! I own many S&W products not one has given me a problem! Remember the SHIELD 40 barrel hype? I have one of the first maufactured! Not thee first but you know? What a bunch of hyped crudd! want to know how many rounds I put thru that? I consider that my best carry! Maybe its not eveyones.liked carry but its mine! I'll stick by S&W and my 10 till proven other wise! Someone always comes up with a reasonable rifle barrel fix! I think I smell alot of failed selfsmithing going on here and b/s embarrassment!
No brag from me, just fact. I tell it like it is. Gun is rated for .308/ 7.62 . Many do not work with run of mill ammo because they are undergassed. They will not fix it.
Many will not hit because barrels are screwed.
Those that do do not seem to like run of mill 150 gr ammo.
If something breaks, or you break something, they will not sell you parts.
If you modify something they will not work on it. AND will not sell you parts.
If you blow it up they will not repair it!
Get the picture!
Even though I like the design, I wish I had bought elsewhere because working things out on this one has cost me twice what I saved over an Armalite or DPMS or others with better support.
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Smith&Wesson, you lost me before you even had me
I was excited about buying a M&P 10.
After reading this thread I've decided to go with a different brand. Spending this kind of money and possibly ending up with a rifle that isn't accurate that requires gunsmithing because the manufacturer can't or won't fix it is completely unacceptable to me.
What good is a lifetime warranty if it is backed up by poor customer service?
I'm stunned at what I've read here. I'm a small business owner and have a good understanding of large business too. I've run multi-million dollar service departments for large corporations in the past.
When you have a good thing going and profits are rolling in, you never ever let stories get around from unsatisfied customers. Replacing a $1500 rifle that probably only costs $500-600 to make in order to satisfy a customer is a no-brainer. Sometimes companies get "too big" and don't think that a handful of customers matters anymore. This is shameful. I am an avid firearm hobbyist and was looking to add at least 4 S&W guns to my collection....no more. I'd rather have a gunsmith build me something that is guaranteed to shoot straight than buy something that may not and have poor customer service to back it up.
Very disappointed. I thought S&W had a better reputation than this.
I was excited about buying a M&P 10.
After reading this thread I've decided to go with a different brand. Spending this kind of money and possibly ending up with a rifle that isn't accurate that requires gunsmithing because the manufacturer can't or won't fix it is completely unacceptable to me.
What good is a lifetime warranty if it is backed up by poor customer service?
I'm stunned at what I've read here. I'm a small business owner and have a good understanding of large business too. I've run multi-million dollar service departments for large corporations in the past.
When you have a good thing going and profits are rolling in, you never ever let stories get around from unsatisfied customers. Replacing a $1500 rifle that probably only costs $500-600 to make in order to satisfy a customer is a no-brainer. Sometimes companies get "too big" and don't think that a handful of customers matters anymore. This is shameful. I am an avid firearm hobbyist and was looking to add at least 4 S&W guns to my collection....no more. I'd rather have a gunsmith build me something that is guaranteed to shoot straight than buy something that may not and have poor customer service to back it up.
Very disappointed. I thought S&W had a better reputation than this.
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UPDATE: finally some good news.
To re-cap a little, in February, I was notified that S&W changed it's policy. While they still will not be selling spare parts for rifles, they will now be servicing damaged rifles that are not covered by warranty for a fee. They e-mailed me another return shipping label, and I sent my M&P 10 back to them one month ago to get a quote.
I got a letter in the mail from them today. They are quoting me $218 for a new barrel, $45 for labor, and $13 freight for a total of $276 to fix my rifle. It is a very reasonable price -- a hell of a lot better than buying a new $1100 rifle, like they originally wanted me to do. I called, gave them my credit card info, and told them to proceed. I requested that they return my damaged barrel, so I can get my low pro gas block and Troy FF barrel nut off of it, which are stuck on due to the barrel being bulged and split after the gas block.
I'm looking forward to getting this back. It sucks having good money tied up in a broken rifle for so long. At least some good came out of this whole rigmarole. If nothing else, it got S&W to change a very bad policy, and gave an option to people who were in my boat -- a broken rifle that is out of warranty with no ability to acquire spare parts or even to pay to have it fixed.
Now -- who wants an M&P 10 with a BRAND NEW BARREL?!?!?!?!?
To re-cap a little, in February, I was notified that S&W changed it's policy. While they still will not be selling spare parts for rifles, they will now be servicing damaged rifles that are not covered by warranty for a fee. They e-mailed me another return shipping label, and I sent my M&P 10 back to them one month ago to get a quote.
I got a letter in the mail from them today. They are quoting me $218 for a new barrel, $45 for labor, and $13 freight for a total of $276 to fix my rifle. It is a very reasonable price -- a hell of a lot better than buying a new $1100 rifle, like they originally wanted me to do. I called, gave them my credit card info, and told them to proceed. I requested that they return my damaged barrel, so I can get my low pro gas block and Troy FF barrel nut off of it, which are stuck on due to the barrel being bulged and split after the gas block.
I'm looking forward to getting this back. It sucks having good money tied up in a broken rifle for so long. At least some good came out of this whole rigmarole. If nothing else, it got S&W to change a very bad policy, and gave an option to people who were in my boat -- a broken rifle that is out of warranty with no ability to acquire spare parts or even to pay to have it fixed.
Now -- who wants an M&P 10 with a BRAND NEW BARREL?!?!?!?!?
Drag
Member
If you read the other thread in here, it appears the DPMS barrel extension as well as the matching DPMS bolt also works in the M&P10. So this would be another route if one wanted to go with a different barrel.
That IS great news and good price. Did you have to send in the parts so they could re-assemble in stock configuration? So you are down another month or more for $45 in labor! Seems gunsmiths do not get in a hurry! Wish I could do that on peoples cars!
Long story short, the thing is what it is. It will shoot, I think, but not with 150 gr in my gun, no better than 3-4 MOA.
Ammo is key here, gotta find what it likes, and quality 168gr seems to work. Stuff like Fed GMM works, but besy groups yet were with Aussie Outback 165 at around 1.5 moa. Other loads uasin Amax at 2 or so, so I have gone to reloading for tuning things now in an effort to get down from there. Still looking for 1 moa, not there yet!
