How big a difference will quality ammo make at 25 yrds?

[Imax14]

So I just bought a new 9mm Pro, and installed an Apex competition trigger kit. I brought it to the range and shot it for the first time today. It performed horribly at the 25, 12+ groups.(I know this is a common complaint with the Pro)

I thought it might just be me, so I brought out my glock 23 and shot 5 inch groups at the 25.

I was shooting reman out of the Pro and Federal Premium out of the Glock. Obviously ammo quality makes a difference, but does it make as big as a difference as I observed?

I am just concerned that my compact .40 is out performing the full size 9mm competition pistol I just bought. Its very discouraging.

 

[MSG Glenn]

I can well believe that you're concerned. Try some good factory ammo & see if that makes a difference. I can also suggest changing the palm swell to a different size to see if that helps.

A LEO buddy of mine had a big problem getting any accuracy when our police department switched from Glock 22 to M&P40. He has big hands & was using the large palm swell. It turns out he was dead on with the small palm swell. I have slightly smaller than normal hands & it made no difference which one I used for some perverse reason. I came to the conclusion that I can have as many misses regardless which I use or which gun I use, lol. I settled on the small because the gun felt just a little more comfortable to me. I shoot the FS M&P40 as well as the 40C & I have a tendency to use the medium on the FS. It seems to balance the gun slightly better but I have a feeling it's all psychological, lol.

 

[Imax14]

I can well believe that you're concerned. Try some good factory ammo & see if that makes a difference. I can also suggest changing the palm swell to a different size to see if that helps.

A LEO buddy of mine had a big problem getting any accuracy when our police department switched from Glock 22 to M&P40. He has big hands & was using the large palm swell. It turns out he was dead on with the small palm swell. I have slightly smaller than normal hands & it made no difference which one I used for some perverse reason. I came to the conclusion that I can have as many misses regardless which I use or which gun I use, lol. I settled on the small because the gun felt just a little more comfortable to me. I shoot the FS M&P40 as well as the 40C & I have a tendency to use the medium on the FS. It seems to balance the gun slightly better but I have a feeling it's all psychological, lol.

I have small hands, so I chose the small palm swell. Now that I think about it the glock grip seems a little larger and thats what I'm used to, so I may try the medium grip out and see if that helps.

 

[Blue9]

If you are a good shooter, and your pro is shooting 12 inch groups at 25 yards, then there is something wrong with your pistol. Period. All of my M&Ps are accurate (even the shield).

I would shoot from a bench to confirm your problems, and then send it to S&W. Maybe your barrel is unlocking too soon or you just received a bad barrel..?

Of course, it may shoot fine from the bench. In that case, just get some trigger time with it. It is a different platform than you are used to after all.

 

[Imax14]

If you are a good shooter, and your pro is shooting 12 inch groups at 25 yards, then there is something wrong with your pistol. Period. All of my M&Ps are accurate (even the shield).

I would shoot from a bench to confirm your problems, and then send it to S&W. Maybe your barrel is unlocking too soon or you just received a bad barrel..?

Of course, it may shoot fine from the bench. In that case, just get some trigger time with it. It is a different platform than you are used to after all.

I will definitely take it out and shoot from the bench with better ammo. The reason I am think its the Pro is because I shot so much better with the Glock. I guess I will find out during my next trip to the range.

 

[CB3]

Try interspersing some dummy rounds in a mag as you fire the Pro. See what the pistol is doing in your hand at the moment of trigger break. Do the same for the Glock.

How different are the triggers?

If the Pro has a long and gritty take-up, with hitches, is heavier than the Glock, and has measurable over-travel, characteristics common to many S&W triggers today, your problem is most likely being unacquainted with shooting a substandard trigger.

If this is the case, you may benefit from installing one of the various Apex kits, with the FSS kit giving you the best trigger.

 

[Blue9]

Try interspersing some dummy rounds in a mag as you fire the Pro. See what the pistol is doing in your hand at the moment of trigger break. Do the same for the Glock.

How different are the triggers?

If the Pro has a long and gritty take-up, with hitches, is heavier than the Glock, and has measurable over-travel, characteristics common to many S&W triggers today, your problem is most likely being unacquainted with shooting a substandard trigger.

If this is the case, you may benefit from installing one of the various Apex kits, with the FSS kit giving you the best trigger.

While what you are basically saying is true (differences in trigger may result in better or worse accuracy for a particular shooter), I must say that the stock M&P trigger is more than acceptable and certainly not substandard. I have a Lyman digital trigger pull gauge, and the heaviest trigger in my polymer pistol collection is my GLOCK 32 which is right at 7 lbs. My bone stock M&P pro 4.25 is 6 lbs even with a lighter take up, and a crisp break.

These pistols aren't designed to match $2500 competition pistols, but they are definitely in the same league as the GLOCK. However, APEX does make some exceptional M&P trigger modifications. I wouldn't count the DCAEK in this category since i don't like the heavier take up with the DCAEK. Now if you install the DCAEK springs and sear, but keep the STOCK trigger return spring, you will get a terrific 5 pound trigger (in my experience) which can help the shooter if the standard 6.5 pound trigger is causing the shooter problems (read: shooter training issue, not pistol problem).

The M&P platform is certainly not perfect. I just think the bad trigger reputation comes from the early years, and that those issues have largely been addressed.

An improved trigger is nice and always welcome (as long as it is still suitable for SD), but this is more of a shooter issue than it is a GLOCK vs M&P trigger system issue. Just my .02, and of course, YMMV

 

[Wee Hooker]

Try a heavier bullet.

 

[CB3]

The M&P platform is certainly not perfect. I just think the bad trigger reputation comes from the early years, and that those issues have largely been addressed.

I understand the Pro triggers are supposed to be better than standard ones, so I hope what you are saying is true.

Unfortunately, too many recent posts, including my own, on this forum and elsewhere show that the M&P line still often suffers from very poor triggers. I understand they made some improvements, which are welcome, but at least some guns are still coming through with really lousy triggers.

I am batting 100%. I bought a 9MM Shield a year ago with an awful trigger that took everything Apex could sell to fix it. I bought a FS 9MM two months ago that I sent back to S&W with a 9 lb pull. They lightened it to the specified 6.5#, but it still has a bad hitch, inconsistent pull weight and long over travel. Another Apex kit is on its way to me now. Hence my suggestion.

 

[missiondude]

My M&P groups drop by 50% when switching from 115 gr to 147 at 25 yards and further out.

 

[BMP]

I understand the Pro triggers are supposed to be better than standard ones, so I hope what you are saying is true.

They still have a little take up initially but once you get on the sear it is just weight to break. No creep what so ever on my 5" Pro 9.

Brad

 

[DanTana]

Try shooting it from a rest. I can see the trigger accounting for some, the ammo maybe 1 inch atb25 yrds. A rest should tell you how accurate the pistol is.

 

[Lost Lake]

I could do some calculations, but unless the bullets are seriously deformed or out of balance, the biggest impact on accuracy is due to variation in bullet speed.

If all the bullets are within 50fps of one another, I wouldn't think the amount of drop between rounds would vary appreciably. A bullet traveling 1000fps takes 75 thousands of a second to reach a 75' target. A bullet traveling 1050fps takes 71.4 thousands of a second. Objects fall at 32 feet per second squared, and I'm guestimating for simple math as I'm really into something else right now ( ) that the difference in vertical placement could swing as much as 1.4 inches.

Even a 2" group at 75 feet would be exceptional... I just don't see the round causing the majority of the problem.

Now the difference between manufacturers and bullet placement would be a different subject (unless I missed the intent here) and bullet velocity between reduced recoil loads and +P+ can vary considerably!!

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