How did they remove leading in the 1800's ?

[413Maxwedge]

I just re-watched the film 3:10 to Yuma. I got to wondering: how did Military, Lawmen, Ranchers and Outlaws clean and de-lead their revolvers? What solvents, tools and techniques did people roaming the plains have at their disposal?

I usually use jacketed bullets in all my "modern" revolvers to help keep them clean. In cowboy movies like this you see hundreds of lead rounds flying from the Colt 1851 Navy(s) and many SAAs (as well as the Remingtons the townsfolk carried). Did they clean with kerosene? Paint thinner?

 

[TJm15.38]

It's an interesting subject and your post got me doing some reading about it. Needless to say, they did not have the modern solvents and lubricants available today, so they used what was available. Black powder cleaning has always required water and hot water is better, because it tends to dry out before the corrosion process starts. The attached article mentions some of the lubricants and corrosion prevention techniques they used.

Old West Gun Owners Knew to Keep Their Bores Clean and Powder Dry

 

[murphydog]

Mercury is a highly effective and toxic lead remover. Don’t know how available or utilized it would have been in the 1800s.

 

[Jim Watson]

Leading with soft bullets and plenty of lube seems not a problem with black powder like it is with "hard cast" bullets, hard wax lube, and hot smokeless powder.

If you happen to get it, one remedy is a patch so tight it has to be driven through the barrel with a mallet, soaked in turpentine.

 

[Dave Baird]

That's when the term, "smooth bore" came about! After so many rounds......"smooth bore!!"

 

[SlamFire]

With the externally greased bullets of the period, the cure to leading was more grease!

No joke, blow enough grease up the barrel, and you can prevent jacket fouling. Done that one on a 300 Win Mag that fouled, and a chromed lined barrel on a JC Higgins M50 in 30-06.

 

[BMur]

Maintenance of Firearms

All Military personnel were intensely trained how to maintain, disassemble,assemble, and clean their firearms.

Late 1800’s Military manuals detail in full the proper procedure for cleaning that includes lead removal:

CLEANING AND CARE OF ARMS

TO CLEAN THE BARREL;

A WET FLANNEL RAG SHOULD BE FIRST PASSED THROUGH THE BORE, THIS SHOULD ONLY BE SUFFICIENTLY MOISTENED TO SOFTEN AND REMOVE THE GREATER PORTION OF THE RESIDUUM OF THE POWDER , IF AN EXCESS OF WATER IS EMPLOYED, THE DIFFICULTY OF WIPING THE PIECE DRY IS ENHANCED AND THE POSSIBILITY OF RUSTING THE EXTRACTOR OR THE HEAD OF THE BREACH SCREW IS ENHANCED. ETC ETC
HOT WATER SHOULD NOT BE USED AS COLD WATER OR TEPID WATER WILL DISSOLVE THE RESIDUUM MUCH BETTER. SEVERAL SPERM OILED FLANNEL OR STRONG COTTON RAGS SHOULD NEXT BE USED , THESE SHOULD FIT THE BORE CLOSELY AND BE RUN UP AND DOWN SEVERAL TIMES TO REMOVE ANY LEAD.
AFTER THE BORE IS CLEAN IT SHOULD BE WIPED OUT WITH A DRY RAG TO REMOVE EXCESS OIL. THE COSMOLINE OIL SUPPLIED WITH THE BOX OF CLEANING MATERIALS IS ONE OF THE BEST FOR THIS PURPOSE. ETC ETC ETC

MURPH

 

[Alk8944]

Between the fouling from black powder and properly lubricated lead bullets leading is rarely a problem! Try it and you will understand!

Cleaning black powder firearms with hot water is a joy compared to the chore of cleaning copper or lead fouling from modern firearms fired with nitro-cellulose based propellants.

 

[rct269]

Removing lead and any and everything else from the bore (and cylinder chambers) is child's play-----if:

If you go to the Notable Thread Index in the early hand ejector section here------and scroll down to the "lead in barrel" thread. There you will find my comments (which came from Wilson Combat). Do what I say to do, and be AMAZED---and lead free-----in no time at all-----and without any magic potions, physical effort, or cost to speak of---after which you will be staring down the absolutely squeaky cleanest holes you have ever seen!! They'll be so clean you won't want to use the gun any more. Then you'll come to your senses, and realize it doesn't matter how messed up you get the bores, you can get them squeaky clean again in no time flat!!

Guarandamnteed!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Guarandamnteed!!

Everyone likes a smart person! Well done, says I!!!

 

[cgt4570]

As mentioned, I read somewhere that they would pour a little mercury in the bore, put a finger over the forcing cone and muzzle, and swish it back and forth until the lead dissolved. I would not recommend that today!

And as for the reference to sperm oil from the military manual of arms, I have an early can of it from Brownell's that's probably from the '40s!

 

[glowe]

Black powder barrels, for the most part, just don't seem to lead. Here is what I can determine.

1. Internally lubricated bullet was invented in 1870 in 44 Russian caliber and quickly adopted by ammo manufacturers. Externally lubed bullets pick up dirt and debris when carried and would rub off over time.

2. To be safe from leading, pure lead bullets should not be shot at velocities above 1000 fps and hard lead should be kept to around 2000 fps to prevent leading.

3. Hot water does not eliminate rusting of barrels, but provides much faster cleaning of BP residue. I have cleaned BP rifles for decades with hot water and found that less than 5 minutes after cleaning and drying, rust forms. This is evidenced by running the first patch and having it come out bright red. The key to stopping this process is to lube the barrel as soon as it is clean to stop rusting.

4. Powder burn temperatures are quite interesting and from what I have found, black powder burns at 1000 to 1300 degrees F in the barrel chamber during firing. Smokeless powders burn at around 2500 for flake powder to 3000 for rifle ball powder. I believe this is one major reason why leading forms at the breech of modern rifles and handguns. Friction is not the cause of leading since the max bullet speed is not reached until the bullet is at the muzzle of the barrel where leading is almost never seen. So the hot temperatures of burning smokeless powders melt the lead as it enters the barrel in my opinion.

5. Smoothbore guns are simply barrels without rifling, but they can and will pit and rust if not properly maintained just as fast as rifled barrels.

My theory on why black powder guns do not exhibit much lead fouling is that black powder is so dirty that after the first shot, bullets ride on the residue of the burnt powder and not against the much cleaner burning smokeless powder barrels. Follow that with the temperature of the burning powder and you have melted lead and fouling much more common in smokeless guns than BP.

 

[Kinman]

I shot two black powder cartridge firearms Wednesday, cleaned them the same night. The first was an Uberti Schofield copy in 44/40. I pulled the cylinder, removed the center section and dumped it in some simple green and hot water, went back to the revolver and wiped off the residue from the recoil shield and area around the top latch, went forward and cleaned around the cylinder post and ran the first of around a dozen wet patches saturated with my cleaning solution that consists of water, Dawn liquid dish soap and water soluble mineral oil (mixed by the half gallon) They were pretty bad with fouling as expected but showed very little lead deposits. Cleaned, I followed with a couple dry patches, then ran a bore brush with Hoppe #9 a couple times, followed with clean patches and again saw only a very minute amount of lead streaking, very little. I put a coat of Barricade on everything and went back to my soaking cylinder. Good stiff nylon cleaning brush scrubbed everything external off, an oversized bottle brush down each hole a couple times, rinsed off, took it out to the shop and blew all residual water out with compressed air. Went back downstairs, ran a bore brush down each hole, clean patched to follow and a coat of Barricade in and out, reassembled the piece and put it away. I only fire that thing a couple times a year at the most and like it put away clean. I also shot another replica, this was another Italian copy of a Winchester Lightning pump in 44/40. It was much easier to clean and only needed serious work on the barrel, I followed the same dozen or so wet patches, scrubbed with a bore brush, Hoppes #9 and patches and finally Barricade, the interior of the receiver was quite clean, bolt face, etc. I always put a patch soaked with Hoppes and a dental tool into the nooks and crannies I can see, wiped down everything with Barricade and put that away as the other.
Back in the day hot water was the best way, soap if you had it. Heavy lubricants gum up revolver actions. With a buddy I made some bear oil that would stay fluid down to freezing or so, neats foot oil as well, Sperm Whale oil is out there...I have a can from Brownells, its special and only goes on my percussion and flintlock pieces. Cleaning muzzleloaders there is no lead because the ball is patched with cloth, only fouling. Rifled muskets are a different story but the speeds those things move at do not contribute to leading. Most of our issues are with fouling. Nearly every muzzle loader I shoot is wiped between each shot for continuity, also because I use a Teflon coated patch which requires a clean barrel. The only exception is a rifled musket and a smoothbore, I have found shooting Teflon patched round ball provides better accuracy with the rifled musket but traditionally they are shot with a Minie ball.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


"1. Internally lubricated bullet was invented in 1870 in 44 Russian caliber and quickly adopted by ammo manufacturers. Externally lubed bullets pick up dirt and debris when carried and would rub off over time.
"

Didn't the 56-50 Spencer precede it?

"3. Hot water does not eliminate rusting of barrels, but provides much faster cleaning of BP residue. I have cleaned BP rifles for decades with hot water and found that less than 5 minutes after cleaning and drying, rust forms. This is evidenced by running the first patch and having it come out bright red. The key to stopping this process is to lube the barrel as soon as it is clean to stop rusting."

There is more to using boiling water than what is presented
here. From the tap, water will have various minerals in it (in
generally save levels) and some gases (like oxygen) too.
Boiling the water will cause the gases dissolved in the water
to be "boiled out" and it leaves the water a little less reactive
to bare metal. Plus, the heating of the metal from the use of
boiling water also promotes faster evaporation of the water
and hence, shortens the time the metal is wet.

Of course, there may be minerals in the water that could
promote rusting. Therefore, using distilled or other pure
water, will be the best for cleaning (added cleansers not
to be excluded based on the user's preferences).


Cheers!
Webb

 

[biku324]

In the 1930s, my late FIL used to restore 22s to accuracy by heating barrels hot enough to discolor, then tipping them downward and scraping with a cleaning rod wrapped in steel wool. He claimed it helped badly leaded barrels back to squirrel accuracy.

 

[glowe]

Couple more things to add. First, is that one should never use petroleum based lubricants on the inside of the barrel of BP guns, since it combines with the powder residue to leave a sticky substance making reloading difficult and is harder to clean that coating in the barrel. Only natural lubes like mineral oils and animal based oils should be used as they completely burn up with the powder. Barricade is a petroleum product.

Second, an article published in 1996 outlines the history of the Spencer including the 56-50 . States that the 56-50 was an inside lubed bullet in the Civil War, but a practice not widely accepted until after the 44 Russian was introduced. Not sure why so many authors claim the 44 Russian was the first, but maybe better stated that the 44 Russian was truly the most visible and successful inside lubed caliber in the marketplace. Spencer's Repeaters

There was considerable debate during development of the 56-52 and 56-50 between Christopher Spencer and Steven V. Benet of Frankford (incidentally, father of the poet of the same name). Benet held that the bullet was better protected by a longer cartridge case. Spencer maintained that the heavy crimp used would damage the bullet's nose or even cause it to strip, thus ruining accuracy. The result was that there were two cartridges available for 50 caliber Spencers. The two rounds are different but interchangeable. The 56-50 is the first generally issued inside lubricated rimfire cartridge. The bullet's grease grooves are covered by the cartridge case. In the 56-52, The bullet's grease grooves are exposed. The Army almost exclusively issued the Springfield designed 56-50 ammunition, even if it was commercially made.

Lastly, since pure lead melts as 630 degrees F and higher for alloy lead, heating any rifle barrel to over 650 degrees is a very risky procedure. First, the person has no way of knowing how hot the barrel actually gets, and maybe 700 or 800 degrees making it a potentially dangerous outcome for the barrel. Anything over 500 degrees is entering the steel tempering range and if the barrel was tempered in manufacture, you will be removing that plus risking the potential of embrittlement as well. Bad choice in my opinion.

 

[biku324]

The barrel heating my FIL talked about was a Depression era poor man's solution for cheap, often worn out rifles, not one for folks with more means.

 

[BMur]

Inside lubricated

The first inside lubricated pistol bullet was the 45 SAA Colt in 1873 by request of the U.S.Army. The Schofield was actually originally an outside lubricated bullet and was changed during the trials to inside lubricated by request of the US Army.
The 44 Russian was also originally an outside lubricated bullet see photo 1.( Pre-1886 cartridges)
This remained until about 1886 when Smith & Wesson changed all of their calibers and bullet designs to inside lubricated bullets.
This is clearly documented and can also be seen with early reloading tools.
Photo 2 is post 1886 44 Russian cartridges.
All (rare) early reloading tools depict outside lubricated bullets prior to the peanut molds in about late 1887.
The peanut molds actually introduced the inside lubricated bullet designs. These designs remained for many years after , however they do not in any way resemble the earlier outside lubricated bullets prior to about 1886-87.

Murph

 

[Beemer-mark]

I shoot Colt SAA (just like the ones in 4:10 to Yuma) use BHN 10~12 bullets (just like they did in the late 1800's) and push them 800~1000 fps just like they were designed for and have never,ever understood why people complain about leading.

 

[glowe]

With further research, I think I found the correct answer to the statements found about the 44 Russian being the first inside lubricated bullet design.

The Russians made changes. The backstrap of the American was changed to better control recoil but the most significant change was the ammunition. These changes the Russians made gave us the model for all currently produced sixgun ammunition. Just as with the .22 rimfire, Smith & Wesson used a heeled bullet in their .44 American. Instead of the heeled bullet, with a base smaller in diameter than the rest of the bullet, the Russians insisted upon a bullet of uniform diameter. This was a most significant step forward and the new cartridge was known as the .44 Russian.

I thought, erroneously, the Russians also went from an outside-lubricated to an inside-lubricated bullet. However, we find the following in the book Centerfire Pistol And Revolver Cartridges (1948) by White and Munhall. “Credit is often given to the Russians for having designed the first inside-lubricated bullet. This is a false belief, since the original Russian cartridges were outside lubricated. As a matter of fact, .44 Smith & Wesson rounds made in Russia as late as 1893 were still of the outside-lubricated type. It was not until 1887 that the lubrication was placed in the cannelures covered by the case wall. This modification is reported to have been introduced by the Union Metallic Cartridge Company, following the suggestions of A.C. Gould, editor of Shooting & Fishing Magazine.”

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