How do I Interpret Loonyland Internet Pricing of used S&Ws?

[Bullet Bob]

I love these posts where somebody complains about what the price of something they want should be. Of course, that's a price that's "reasonable" to what they want to pay.

Although I'm no disciple of Jeff Cooper, he did say something about the Scout rifle put out by Steyr years ago that made a lot of sense. A reader was complaining about the cost, and he said that in capitalist society, something costs whatever a seller asks for it; and the buyer either wants, and can, afford it - or not. And thank goodness for that philosophy. Any other type of control is much worse for everybody.

If something is too high, it won't sell, so the seller will correct the business model, or go out of business.

If someone wants too much for something in the marketplace and does not depend on selling the item for his or her financial needs, they will have keep it if they're not willing to lower the price. If someone wants it badly enough that they think the price is reasonable , buyer and seller are happy.

 

[bobelk99]

Then as I read the various posts, I was also amused at the newness of many of the posters along with the low post counts. That alone doesn't cause concern as much as the combination of the two.

It would not 'hurt' to consider that there cannot be veterans unless they start somewhere. I see no benefit in declaring that newbies, like myself, are suspect.

I have viewed this forum as an observant for many moons, and have probably owned 500 Smiths.

 

[therevjay]

Like a old salesman told me years ago "Go ahead and ask, some fool might say yes. If not, you can always come down."

 

[mrerick]

Some gun show pricing is grotesque... + Out of state purchases

I regularly help host our state gun lobby organization's booth, so get a good look at dealer and table offerings.

We have quite a few reasonable dealers in my area, and they are willing to price fairly.

But there are others that are remarkable. It has to be their intent to cheat uninformed buyers.

I also collect Lugers. There is one regular at the shows that routinely overprices inferior (shooter rather than collector grade) Lugers to a grotesque point.

He had a refinished mis-matched Artillery with an aftermarket stock and leather on his table for $3,500 last weekend. It had a chipped left grip as well. At best this is worth $1000 to a collector... But to the uninformed?

P. T Barnum had it right.

- - - -

Separately, out of state purchases were mentioned in an earlier post in this thread.

North Carolina just passed a new omnibus law to improve several firearms laws including Castle Doctrine. (HB-650, awaiting governor signature). One of the provisions of these changes will permit out of state purchases as long as the laws of the other state are complied with and a NCIS background check is performed. Things are changing for the better!

Marc

 

[Steve in Vermont]

I would never consider purchasing a gun at a gun show. I have a dealer who has been in business for decades. He has fair prices and stands behind everything he sells. I also have a car dealer who has, for decades, treated me well. And a boat dealer, and appliance dealer, etc. I've know all these folks for a long, long time and we have a "relationship" of respect for each other. I don't try and undercut a fair price and they don't overcharge me. It certainly doesn't sound like most people at gun shows have any respect for each other. Caveat Emptor.

 

[old bear]

I'm old enough to remember that gun shows were shows first and sales areas second. I quite attending these about 10 years ago. So any thing I offer is dated material. I believe that many of the sellers at these often look at these shows as a social gathering, a chance to perhaps pick up some deals, and a chance to sell if and only if some is willing to pay their price. If they don't sell anything oh-well they had a fun weekend and most will let their CPA figure out a way to let uncle sugar pay for it. As for under the table sales, as i have not bought a gun at a gun show in 40 years I can't speak to that with any hard facts. Do I believe that this happens from time to time, yes. Do I believe that this is the norm, NO.

I can only suggest if someone thinks a seller's price is to high either make a FAIR counter offer or decline to buy. If someone has proof or a very real belief that a seller is violating the law report it to the proper authorities. I know no one likes a tattle tale, but if there is not some self enforcement of the rules there are more than a few who would be willing to see that even stricter regulations are put into place.

 

[PhilOhio]

You can pretty much post anything you wish. To expect the rest of us to give it much credence, we read and then apply some simple tests. You've come here expressing what amounts to a strong anti-gun pro gun control argument. Intended or not, its the exact attitudes we hear constantly from the gun control activists. Some may welcome that kind of argument, most of us will not. You've pretty well outlined and used their comments on the "gun show loophole". I'm not buying it.

The post count and length of time here is almost always used to see if the poster is a real gun person or a troll trying to steer the argument toward "reasonable" gun control. And what we've seen all along is there is nothing reasonable about it. The tone and assumptions you've used are the same as we see from the mayors of the big cities, or the gun unfriendly lawmakers in places with very restrictive gun laws and non-existent gun shows. Which leads me to question your motives in your posting here.

You're right, I know nothing of your background. From what I've learned so far, I don't want to know, nor do I want to hear much of your views if they continue to advocate closing gun shows (its just about what you've outlined) and imposing New York or California types of controls. Basically you've called a fair number of our members criminals just because we go to gun shows and you've implied we engage in conduct that is illegal. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Only time tells us how dependable and the political views of posters. Yours seem to be more in line with Mr. Holders and the Obama Justice Department/BATFE than most of our gun owners. Its not against the rules of this forum for anti-gun types to post their views. But coming along and trying to act like a responsible gun owner and "one of us" and then repeating anti-gun sentiment needs to be called out for just what it is. Not really trolling, but so close it doesn't matter.

I'm still enjoying almost all the different points of view in this thread, except for this tragically distorted one, above. I'm afraid I can't sit still for it, especially when I've done a little research on who the poster is. It's Dick Burg, who has done a lot of good and honorable S&W collecting, especially sharing of information on S&W box variations, and is even favorably referenced in Jim Supica's book.

Dick, you really should resist the temptation to try to distort the views and motivations of somebody with whose point of view you disagree, to turn them around a full 180 degrees. Everything which you attribute to me above is utterly false, never stated, posted, or thought. I consider it virtually slanderous, because my life long views have been the opposite. So I'm not about to let it pass. And once again, I'm very curious about why you have become so enraged at even the discussion of not-so-good things that happen at gun shows. I would think that, if you have never been responsible for any of them, you would side with the rest of us who don't like to see it happen, and recognize the danger to our passion.

In everything I have written in this thread, I have made it emphatically clear that I am about as pro-gun and 2nd Amendment as one could get. I assume you are, also. How about showing it, by being intellectually truthful? Collectors respect you, but earning it doesn't stop at some point, giving you a free pass to behave some other way in a forum. The only thing a record of some 2900 posts here gets you is our hopes that it hasn't given you carpal tunnel syndrome, and that attending lots of gun shows over 40 years has not worn out your feet.

Getting back to what I was saying before Dick tossed that brown thing into the stew, I wanted to comment that a good way to discuss the pluses and minuses of various gun shows and Internet venues is to compare the unequivocally fine and straight ones with everything else. It's like night and day, when I attend shows of our Ohio Gun Collectors Association, Michigan Antique Arms Collectors shows, and then the others. Those named groups have firm and fair rules and enforce them. The antigunners are going to have a lot of trouble taking legally damaging pot shots at them, because the guys steering those clubs make a continuing effort to stay on top of it, and to weed out some of the questionable characters. Yes, Dick, some of them should "banned", and they are. I know of a few.

Another thing that concerns me a lot is that a few serious collectors and gun people, like Dick Burg right here in this thread, take the dangerous and very shorted sighted view that anybody advocating that these problems be grabbed by the ears and fixed is hostile, an antigunner, a Michael Bloomberg worshiper. Dick, seriously, you should get over it. Be able to distinguish friends from enemies. Then go after the right ones. I'm not the enemy, even if you can't bring yourself to admit that I'm a friend. If you are going to fight the bad guys effectively, you have to do it with your brain engaged.

There is no "gun show loophole". I never said or implied there was. There is no "reasonable" gun control. I never said or implied there is. What could not be "farther from the truth", as you put it above, is virtually everything you said about me and what I posted, and my motivation. Everything about Eric Holder, the Schumerites, Boxers, Feinsteins and the rest upset my stomach. If you don't want to hear my views, I'm afraid you're out of luck. You're going to, especially each and every time you sling mud and try to intentionally misrepresent what I post. And that's because my views, in reality, are probably about the same as yours on this issue, except for one thing. I don't stick my head in the sand and pretend that some of the abuses in the shooter/collector community don't exist, so they don't need to be fixed. That very clearly is your position. I hope you recognize and reconsider it. You know the old saying, "You snooze, you lose." the OGCA and MAAC board members have not been snoozing. A lot of gun show promoters have.

It would take a long time to list all the abuses and questionable practices that I've seen at other gun shows in Ohio and southern Michigan. I won't do that, because there is no point in drawing attention to it here. But I firmly believe that each of us should at least make the effort to quietly fix something when you see it...put a little pressure on, or motivate somebody in a position to act. It's in your own best interests.

Nobody has more to lose than serious collectors, if the far left succeeds in further curtailing our ability to buy, sell, and trade at least as freely as we have been able to do so far. And as the political trend in this country shifts in a more conservative direction, each one of us should be a lot more demanding of our self declared Republican and Tea Party friends, to see that, for the first time, if and when they regain lost power they undo some the the legislative damage the other guys have done while in control. That has almost never happened so far. The noose just keeps getting tighter, except for the '94 gun ban expiration...which Obama et al would like to reinstall "under the radar", as he recently put it to Sarah Brady.

This is a critical point. Our "friends" talk a good game when running for office, then double deal us after they have been elected. Keep their feet to the fire. But we have to do our part by running a clean act and not giving the other side the ammunition to further curtail our freedoms. And Dick Burg, I hope you don't stay awake all night trying to figure out how my clearly stated point of view is actually some dirty sneaky trick on the part of a Schumerian gun banner, planted on your favorite web site. It can't be done, because I for sure ain't that.

 

[pharmer]

All this talk about "gunshow etiquette" is fun, but remember that "gun show loophole" the politicians are after, is ANY private sale. To a .gov commie, selling a gun "off paper" is anathema, like selling a car without the title. Joe

 

[cowart]

What is going on? Is the seller merely trying to establish contact with a prospective buyer, and then find some way to do the deal under the table, beating the auction site out of its fee?

The deal with gunbroker.com is that if an item receives no bids, you can have it relisted automatically, over and over again. There is no charge for this. I have a few accessory items for sale there that have been going for on like that for a couple of months.

It actually takes some initiative on the seller's part to remember to log in and delete a poorly performing item. Its easier to just let it continue.

 

[Out West]

I know gun buyers who will pay a premium to purchase from a private seller. They don't want a paper trail. These fellows are not criminals. They can pass back ground checks and some have CCWs. They are in all ways qualified to purchase from an FFL.

They instead choose to LEGALLY purchase from a private seller.

PhilOhio, you may intuit something wrong, but that is not proof. Please give your position more thought. Your position abets many who would limit private ownership of firearms.

Thanks,

Out
West

 

[redlevel]

Yes, this is a legitimate question. And we've all seen it at guns shows, much more frequently these days. A table holder is trying to sell a current, in-production S&W for as much, or more, than the current MSRP price, which no sane person actually pays anyway. What is he up to?

Unfortunately, sometimes that is not hard to understand. These people, when you ask them about that, often emphasize that this is an "out the door price." My strong personal opinion is that a guy doing this should be permanently banned from that, or any other, show. Clearly, he is catering to a person who may have a criminal record disqualifying him from handgun purchase through a dealer, who must run an instant check. My experience is that in only one or two instances over the last 30 years or so, buying many guns at shows, has a non-FFL seller ever asked to see my ID.

But now the real question. Internet firearms sales, via Gunbroker, Guns America, Auction Arms, etc., is a very different process. Firearms must be shipped to an FFL or, if more than 50 years old, to a C&R license holder like many of us. So one would think that a ridiculously inflated price does not mean the seller is targeting the gang market, right?

But on these marketing or auction sights I see umpteen S&Ws, and everything else, advertised at absurdly inflated prices. If it is an auction site, there is often a gigantic, inflated minimum bid, and for almost all of these listings, you can see there have been "0" bidders.

What is going on? Is the seller merely trying to establish contact with a prospective buyer, and then find some way to do the deal under the table, beating the auction site out of its fee?

Here's what happened to me just yesterday. I have been seriously thinking about buying a very expensive S&W Model 952 9mm target pistol. My FFL friend did the research for me, found the gun is readily available through one of his distributors, and the price is about $1,550 plus shipping under $20. That's probably the way I will go, and it gets me a S&W warranty.

But first, I checked the Internet sites and found a seller in Florida offering a 952 and 3 - 4 magazines for what rounds out to about $2,400, well above MSRP. The gun is over one year old, and with very minor wear. The guy posted a virtual blizzard of pictures, of every part of the gun from every angle.

So I asked the seller what was going on. What would be my motivation for paying nearly $1,000 more for the non-warrantied gun than what I could buy it for, new, from Smith? I said I would be interested in his 952 if he would be willing to take a little bit less than what I can buy the gun for new, with warranty.

Back came his short, curt answer. "Go ahead. Buy the new gun." He couldn't care less.

So what is going on here? Help me out, guys. There has to be something sub rosa. Are these Internet sellers also catering to unqualified buyers with bad data in the FBI instant check database? Do they seek only to make contact, and then ship illegally, on the sly? Are the ridiculous prices intended only to drive away legitimate, law abiding buyers and reverse filter the other kind, willing to pay anything?

If you look at the major sales or auction sites, scan down at the bid counters. Most get zero bids. Something very fishy is going on, and I'll bet some of you have stories about what it is.

Whatever it is, it should be knocked out, before it spoils the game for the rest of us. And I am a strong advocate of applying the same standards to gun shows. I don't want these sleezoids raining on my/our parade. Something smells, and it needs to be deodorized.

I'm really interested to hear what you guys think, as I know many of you have spent years and years working gun show tables, and running, or working in, stocking dealerships.

The gunshow aspect of this, in my experience, is that quite a number of sellers are absolutely rigid about sticking with prices which I am sure no knowledgeable collector would pay. Sure, they may be trolling for suckers. But are there really that many around? And with money somebody has not already swindled them out of? In these economic times?

Are these non-selling "sellers" just hoping to be able to go home from the show, sadly shrug their shoulders, and tell their wives they couldn't sell any guns, no matter what they tried?

I keep thinking I am missing something, but what? Is sanity more rare than I think? Or is it that (sellers') wishful thinking is just off the charts?

And we would be kidding ourselves by saying we have not seen a fair share of this quite close to home.

Again, I'm trying to focus on asking prices of recent or in-production Smiths, where that price is almost the same as, or even more, than MSRP. Something doesn't compute. What?

What a great thread. But sometimes I can't let one slide by,... I said earlier I was learning a lot in this thread, but it turns out my ignorance and misunderstanding of what goes on at gun shows was broader than I knew. Thankfully, it looks like help is on the way.

Rburg - I'm puzzled why you were "pretty offended" when reading this thread, adding that "People get that way when others seem to be accusing them of...criminal intent." Makes me wonder just why you would feel that way? I was also "amused" at your statement: "I was also amused at the newness of many of the posters along with the low post counts." That's classical. "Post counts" tell nobody a thing about posters here, or about me, or about their/my professional or other qualifications for commenting, or the validity of their viewpoints. But your comments shout that somebody has struck a nerve, and we have to wonder why? We could debate the propriety and ethics of it, I suppose, but what kind of person would be on the other side of various criticisms raised here, including blatant price gouging attempts, and taking advantage of young and relatively inexperienced browsers at gun shows? I would not agree that this is as American as apple pie, and that if you can get away with it, it's fine. Legally, sure. Ethically and morally...those terms still have at least a little meaning for some of us, I guess.

As for implying that the "OP" (I guess that's high-poster-count-expert talk for me) simply doesn't understand what he's looking at, at gun shows, because he's a novice, unlike yourself, presumably...wrong.

And then this one, "I'd suggest we not infer criminal intent on gun show sellers unless you have a strong reason and evidence, not just conjecture." Thanks for the suggestion, but I have to pass on it. I will counter suggest that you have no basis or insight qualifying you to minimize or discredit the accuracy of the observations and conclusions of "the OP" or others who have posted in this thread. Neither you nor I can confirm or refute them all, but there sure seems to be a lot of concensus. I can't speak for them, but I don't do conjecture unless I label it as such. I'm a fact, strong circumstantial evidence, and careful analysis guy, that having been my professional focus for many years. But I still get stung by a slick gun show seller now and then.

As for this one, I've been a regular at gun shows for a long time now, back into the very early 1970s. I've not encountered anyone selling who was trying to violate any laws. I've seen a few that might have been doing it... But I'm not comfortable implying they have criminal intent, should be banned from shows, etc. ...good for you. You've been going to gun shows for almost as long as I have. So presumably you know almost as much about the subject as I do. But obviously, we have not been going to the same gun shows, as you have not seen any of the abuses I, or the rest of the posters, have. Isn't that amazing? I'm sorry to hear that you are "not comfortable" with I/our "implying" that some of these guys have "criminal intent", a term you, not I, introduced to apparently raise the ante. Not being a mind reader, I can't comment on intent, just actions. I guess you will have to remain "not comfortable". I'm not comfortable with some of the gun show abuses which I fear may rain on the parade for all of us. I'm still unclear about some of the things happening on the Internet. Your sweeping denial of the existence of any questionable activity is simply not supported by the facts and observations of a growing number of posters in this thread alone. I've understated what is going on at some shows, as I think you, and all of us, well know. My wish would be to curtail the most visible and obvious parts of it before some of these people, or one high visibility sting, shuts us all down. A head-in-the-sand approach just gets us closer to a bad fall.

Look, we all love gun shows. But they are not hotbeds of virtue and honesty. Could you explain to us exactly what is wrong with addressing some of their shortcomings? Or do you insist there aren't any?

Again, I'm wondering why you have taken this thread so personally, as you clearly indicated? And why the effort to discredit the message bearer and my/our qualifications for speaking? "Post counts" indeed. Am I to understand that, at some point, volume of wind delivered equals unassailable expertise? I'll just have to get my tonnage up as quickly as possible, and I imagine I may be accused of working on it.

I'm sure you agree that when somebody attempts to discredit the credentials, observations, or conclusions of one or more posters here or anywhere, it is fair and reasonable to expect a response, and it may not always be the one you expect or want. Harry Truman had a saying about that. Be assured, I'm a responder.

Warren Sear - You said: "PhilOhio, I have never once been asked for an ID when buying a gun from a non-FFL seller, and if I would have been asked, I would have refused to show it. There is no requirement for this AFAIK.

When selling guns, I respect the buyer's legal privacy and never ask for ID."

I hear you, and share your respect for privacy, etc. But I respectfully suggest you reexamine your understanding of what the requirements are, at least regarding handguns. It sounds like you have been taking serious risks you honestly did not know about. A non-FFL/C&R buyer may not purchase a handgun in a state of which he is not a legal resident, period. And neither a licensed or unlicensed person may sell to him, outside his home state. This is not a gray area. Not from an FFL holder and not from an ordinary non-licensed citizen. You are setting yourself up for a sting if you, as a seller, do not ask for enough buyer identification to determine state of residency. Yes, this is the federal law. Check GCA 68. Is just about everybody breaking it? Absolutely. Is it a felony? Yep. Does "Rburg" admit that any of this might be going on at gun shows? Absolutely not! I think that most of these rules are hogwash and patently unconstitutional. But the judge doesn't want to hear my opinion on that. Until these laws are abolished, please protect yourself. Politely ask for a drivers license, military ID card, etc. That's enough. If it's your home state, and the guy looks like the one in the picture, everybody's happy. Sell the gun. No need to write it all down, at least not in my state. You complied. You did not knowingly sell a handgun to a resident of another state, without going through a licensed FFL holder. And you exercised the due diligence the law requires to make that determination. Didn't know that? Now you do.

And don't go to a gun show in another state, set up your table, and begin selling handguns to residents there, with or without an FFL. You are in deep kimchi. Long guns? No problem, unless the other state or local jurisdiction has additional rules.

Anybody care to be the latest test case on this? It's a slam dunk. The only reason the shooter community has not had more problems in this area is that BATFE has its hands full dealing with violent offenders...I would guess. Yes, "Rburg", that's my conjecture. But why keep taking chances? The guy trying to buy from you could be somebody they are tracking. Want to spin the roulette wheel?

I'm still enjoying almost all the different points of view in this thread, except for this tragically distorted one, above. I'm afraid I can't sit still for it, especially when I've done a little research on who the poster is. It's Dick Burg, who has done a lot of good and honorable S&W collecting, especially sharing of information on S&W box variations, and is even favorably referenced in Jim Supica's book.

Dick, you really should resist the temptation to try to distort the views and motivations of somebody with whose point of view you disagree, to turn them around a full 180 degrees. Everything which you attribute to me above is utterly false, never stated, posted, or thought. I consider it virtually slanderous, because my life long views have been the opposite. So I'm not about to let it pass. And once again, I'm very curious about why you have become so enraged at even the discussion of not-so-good things that happen at gun shows. I would think that, if you have never been responsible for any of them, you would side with the rest of us who don't like to see it happen, and recognize the danger to our passion.

In everything I have written in this thread, I have made it emphatically clear that I am about as pro-gun and 2nd Amendment as one could get. I assume you are, also. How about showing it, by being intellectually truthful? Collectors respect you, but earning it doesn't stop at some point, giving you a free pass to behave some other way in a forum. The only thing a record of some 2900 posts here gets you is our hopes that it hasn't given you carpal tunnel syndrome, and that attending lots of gun shows over 40 years has not worn out your feet.

Getting back to what I was saying before Dick tossed that brown thing into the stew, I wanted to comment that a good way to discuss the pluses and minuses of various gun shows and Internet venues is to compare the unequivocally fine and straight ones with everything else. It's like night and day, when I attend shows of our Ohio Gun Collectors Association, Michigan Antique Arms Collectors shows, and then the others. Those named groups have firm and fair rules and enforce them. The antigunners are going to have a lot of trouble taking legally damaging pot shots at them, because the guys steering those clubs make a continuing effort to stay on top of it, and to weed out some of the questionable characters. Yes, Dick, some of them should "banned", and they are. I know of a few.

Another thing that concerns me a lot is that a few serious collectors and gun people, like Dick Burg right here in this thread, take the dangerous and very shorted sighted view that anybody advocating that these problems be grabbed by the ears and fixed is hostile, an antigunner, a Michael Bloomberg worshiper. Dick, seriously, you should get over it. Be able to distinguish friends from enemies. Then go after the right ones. I'm not the enemy, even if you can't bring yourself to admit that I'm a friend. If you are going to fight the bad guys effectively, you have to do it with your brain engaged.

There is no "gun show loophole". I never said or implied there was. There is no "reasonable" gun control. I never said or implied there is. What could not be "farther from the truth", as you put it above, is virtually everything you said about me and what I posted, and my motivation. Everything about Eric Holder, the Schumerites, Boxers, Feinsteins and the rest upset my stomach. If you don't want to hear my views, I'm afraid you're out of luck. You're going to, especially each and every time you sling mud and try to intentionally misrepresent what I post. And that's because my views, in reality, are probably about the same as yours on this issue, except for one thing. I don't stick my head in the sand and pretend that some of the abuses in the shooter/collector community don't exist, so they don't need to be fixed. That very clearly is your position. I hope you recognize and reconsider it. You know the old saying, "You snooze, you lose." the OGCA and MAAC board members have not been snoozing. A lot of gun show promoters have.

It would take a long time to list all the abuses and questionable practices that I've seen at other gun shows in Ohio and southern Michigan. I won't do that, because there is no point in drawing attention to it here. But I firmly believe that each of us should at least make the effort to quietly fix something when you see it...put a little pressure on, or motivate somebody in a position to act. It's in your own best interests.

Nobody has more to lose than serious collectors, if the far left succeeds in further curtailing our ability to buy, sell, and trade at least as freely as we have been able to do so far. And as the political trend in this country shifts in a more conservative direction, each one of us should be a lot more demanding of our self declared Republican and Tea Party friends, to see that, for the first time, if and when they regain lost power they undo some the the legislative damage the other guys have done while in control. That has almost never happened so far. The noose just keeps getting tighter, except for the '94 gun ban expiration...which Obama et al would like to reinstall "under the radar", as he recently put it to Sarah Brady.

This is a critical point. Our "friends" talk a good game when running for office, then double deal us after they have been elected. Keep their feet to the fire. But we have to do our part by running a clean act and not giving the other side the ammunition to further curtail our freedoms. And Dick Burg, I hope you don't stay awake all night trying to figure out how my clearly stated point of view is actually some dirty sneaky trick on the part of a Schumerian gun banner, planted on your favorite web site. It can't be done, because I for sure ain't that.

I see that PhilO is a practitioner of that old literary adage that if 10 words are sufficient to make a point, then 15 words must really be good.

 

[Florida Guy]

Regarding GB... I have emailed questions to sellers and have gotten replies from maybe 50% of them. So, seems they could care less if I bought it or not.
Also, it costs nothing to relist on GB. If they had to pay a listing fee, things might be different. This way they can keep placing it back up if it doesn't sell, until a sucker finally comes along (and he will).
I am finding prices on GB to be very high on guns I am familiar with. When I decide on how high I will bid, I don't even get that far because a couple of guys want the same gun, and seemingly willing to pay whatever to get it.

 

[rburg]

The only thing a record of some 2900 posts here gets you is our hopes that it hasn't given you carpal tunnel syndrome, and that attending lots of gun shows over 40 years has not worn out your feet.

Actually, your powers of observation continue to fail you. You believe too much of what you see. The reality is that during the last upgrade here on the forum, I lost 14,400 posts and started over at 0. What you see are the posts since then.

As for the overpriced guns being a draw to out of state or criminals, , the owner of this forum goes to out of state gun shows. And he exhibits guns at astronomical prices. Its why we buy from him. And he does it in 3rd states, selling to those you assume are criminals like me who live in still another state. Try as we might, we don't violate any laws, Federal, state, or local.

When I'm not viewing Lees goodies, I'm usually on one side of David Carrolls tables, or the other. Trying my best to figure out how to afford the guns he has on display at prices often double what other guns are selling for, or nearly the same guns, anyway.

What you feel is just criminal intent on the part of high grade sellers is often them asking the going rate for high grade guns of the type you can't find anywhere else. Better still, you can actually handle and inspect those guns the better sellers offer, not just view fuzzy photos from those you've got no idea how honest they are.

 

[66TAS]

Actually, your powers of observation continue to fail you. You believe too much of what you see. The reality is that during the last upgrade here on the forum, I lost 14,400 posts and started over at 0. What you see are the posts since then.

As for the overpriced guns being a draw to out of state or criminals, , the owner of this forum goes to out of state gun shows. And he exhibits guns at astronomical prices. Its why we buy from him. And he does it in 3rd states, selling to those you assume are criminals like me who live in still another state. Try as we might, we don't violate any laws, Federal, state, or local.

When I'm not viewing Lees goodies, I'm usually on one side of David Carrolls tables, or the other. Trying my best to figure out how to afford the guns he has on display at prices often double what other guns are selling for, or nearly the same guns, anyway.

What you feel is just criminal intent on the part of high grade sellers is often them asking the going rate for high grade guns of the type you can't find anywhere else. Better still, you can actually handle and inspect those guns the better sellers offer, not just view fuzzy photos from those you've got no idea how honest they are.

I wouldnt waste my time. Your answers arent fitting his agenda. So he types and types, hoping most of us will read every forth line or so of his posts so he can type another mini novel to make his point. A point that I almost promise you, none of us, not even him, knows what his point is. I swear if this was a motorcycle forum I would say I know this guy.

 

[PhilOhio]

Redlevel - I plead guilty. You've got me. My intent is not to express my opinions by the pound, but too often it works out that way.

Dick B. - You've got to stop attributing language and terms to me which I never used, and then shooting them down. That defines straw man tactics...such as your "criminal intent" terminology and the other buzz words you tried to attach to my opinions. My powers of observation are also just fine. I know exactly what I'm seeing at gun shows.

66TAS - If you don't get "the point", or what seem to be common impressions coming from a bunch of people here, that's not likely to change and doesn't concern me. There's no difficulty trying to figure out my "agenda" as you put it. I guess it's to keep deniers, like you seem to be, from digging in their heels and perpetuating the abuses that eventually could put the whole gun show scene out of business. Sounds like you are one of those folks, so your comments are understandable.

But a lot of the rest of you are making much sense, clearly understand my concerns, and I'm appreciating hearing your insights.

FYI: Serious IP problems are causing some delays in responding to some of this, but I get there eventually. And Redlevel, I'm going to try hard to hld it down. Honest. It's just that this place is so much fun...

 

[redlevel]

" . . . . brevity is the soul of wit . . . . "

 

[66TAS]

Redlevel - I plead guilty. You've got me. My intent is not to express my opinions by the pound, but too often it works out that way.

Dick B. - You've got to stop attributing language and terms to me which I never used, and then shooting them down. That defines straw man tactics...such as your "criminal intent" terminology and the other buzz words you tried to attach to my opinions. My powers of observation are also just fine. I know exactly what I'm seeing at gun shows.

66TAS - If you don't get "the point", or what seem to be common impressions coming from a bunch of people here, that's not likely to change and doesn't concern me. There's no difficulty trying to figure out my "agenda" as you put it. I guess it's to keep deniers, like you seem to be, from digging in their heels and perpetuating the abuses that eventually could put the whole gun show scene out of business. Sounds like you are one of those folks, so your comments are understandable.

But a lot of the rest of you are making much sense, clearly understand my concerns, and I'm appreciating hearing your insights.

FYI: Serious IP problems are causing some delays in responding to some of this, but I get there eventually. And Redlevel, I'm going to try hard to hld it down. Honest. It's just that this place is so much fun...

In 3 sentances or less...define your point.

 

[HappyHunter]

" . . . . brevity is the soul of wit . . . . "

Shakespear? Really...Shakespear?

 

[PhilOhio]

Sorry I took so long answering, 66TAS. But it may take more than "three sentences or less". Nobody's twisting your arm to read it.

Maybe a thread like this has the unintended consequence of smoking out S&W collector world problem children. They rise to the bait. But it's a reasonable guess. What other type of person would bitterly object to what I posted, try to put an anti-gun spin on it, and mount an insulting and distorted personal counter attack, laced with negative buzz words? Otherwise, why the great anger, and statements that nobody should listen to what I said? What was threatening? Is there some other explanation rather than the obvious one? We all go to gun shows and we all see the same things, there and on the Internet. This board is full of wild stories of what goes on, on the net. Everybody here has his own list of outrageous tales, both funny and making us angry.

So maybe this thread is a convenient filter, telling the world who is who in S&W collector land. Guys, pay attention to who has argued which position here. Then compare that to what you have seen yourself. Looks like the clash of white hats vs. black hats, with the latter arguing that the former are the latter.

And a couple days ago I meant to respond to what Out West said, which was perfectly reasonable, fair, and sensibly written:

"I know gun buyers who will pay a premium to purchase from a private seller. They don't want a paper trail. These fellows are not criminals. They can pass back ground checks and some have CCWs. They are in all ways qualified to purchase from an FFL.

They instead choose to LEGALLY purchase from a private seller.

PhilOhio, you may intuit something wrong, but that is not proof. Please give your position more thought. Your position abets many who would limit private ownership of firearms.

Thanks,

Out
West"

I couldn't agree with you more, on the paper trails issue. You don't want 'em and I don't want 'em. So let's not leave them at gun shows, etc. BUT, that is unrelated to the need for a private seller asking to see a buyer's drivers license, to make sure he's a state resident and not a BATFE setup or such. We're talking handguns, not long guns. Once again, the federal law implicitly demands it. No need to record anything. The law does not require that at all, thank heaven. But morally, ethically, and legally, do you want to be the guy selling handguns to some ex-con or non-resident who then goes out and kills somebody with it? Do you accept any responsibility for doing the minimally lawful and unobtrusive thing, "the right thing", and also cover yourself? I do. That's no anti-gun position. It's common sense. It's basic integrity. Just verify who appears to be who and then forget it.

"Proof" of what I contend? I've seen and experienced it. I need no more proof. It's right out there in the open, at any show...but some are pretty darn clean, like OGCA and MAAC.

Am I perceiving problems where they don't exist, and do I need to reexamine my position? Most emphatically not. I am as pro-gun as they get. If some of the issues I have raised sound to the angry deniers here like what our crusading gun banner enemies accuse us of, that's because not quite everything they say has no basis in reality, sorry to say. We can fix that. We need to change it, not make excuses, lie about it, toss out red herrings and attack the messenger in forums like this. We should all behave like decent and honorable people at gun shows, just like elsewhere in life...hoping that most of us do that. But some, probably some here, never will.

Nobody gets a pass at a gun show, to swindle as he pleases, telling himself it is the responsibility of a novice or unsuspecting buyer to catch him; and that there's nothing wrong with making the ripoff attempt. That's the most disgraceful excuse for crookery I've heard coming from some sophisticated people, probably very nice guys, on one of the very best, most respectable shooter forums on the net. It's like saying it's O.K. to walk into a bank, after hours, and clean it out if somebody forgot to lock the front door and the vault.

I won't even get into details of the guy who, at one of the more respectable gun shows I attend, keeps selling brand new faked and blank S&W box end labels. Or the waffen ampt and U.S. Ordnance Corps acceptance stamps. Or the highly "respected" expert and author of a thick reference book on a type of restricted firearm I own, who makes and sells for about 100 times what it costs him a small metal accessory box; an original sells for almost $2,000. He sells his for about $250, totally unmarked as a repro, virtually undistinguishable from the original. All of these products are aimed at gun collectors planning, or wanting the option of committing, outright fraud. And a small, stubborn core of those collectors bitterly defend all these people and their intentional fraudulent fakery. I've heard every possible argument and rationale, how it isn't really fraud or "criminal". Just like what we hear in this thread, about let the buyer beware. And the seller is free to do anything at all, no matter how crooked or unethical.

We need to get back to the old days, when gun collecting was 80% to 90% honorable. And we need to stop doing, condoning, or excusing the other stuff. All of it.

Still having trouble figuring out what my point is, 66TAS? And I'm betting Rburg, being an expert on boxes, knows all about the counterfeit S&W box labels, who's making them, and why it is all perfectly above board, and how none of the buyers would ever think of using the labels to fake "original" boxes and fraudulently inflate the sale price of a S&W revolver. In the immortal words of that paragon of virtue, Richard Nixon, "But that would be wrong." (Got a beautiful, framed presidential appointment certificate signed by him, certifying to my integrity; what irony).

It's so easy to play it straight. Costs nothing, except for the money lost by not swindling somebody.

 

[66TAS]

knew you couldnt, thanx for making my point...see ya