How many failures are acceptable?

["JJ"]

The reason I ask is because I watched a friend at an USPSA competition experience like 4 failures out of 100 rounds fired.
He acted like it wasn't that big of deal. There were other shooters racking thier slide as well.
He said that him and a couple of other shooters load on a dillion 650.
He also stated "that they can run 100 rds in 6 minutes!"

Now I am in research mode on a press my self to launch my reloading career.
So I am new & I am trying to get an idea of what to expect.
I have shot around 600 rds of a friends reloads & a whopping 100 rds of my own training rds with no failures.

Now I don't expect to NEVER have a failure. I am human!
But one can strive for perfection right?
My mentor taught me a precise process on a Lee Classic Turrent.
We were setting no speed records but had no failures!!
I would guess the errors go up as the speed goes up!

So my questions:
How many failures do you average/accept?
What type of failures?
What type of press?

Not trying to judge anyone or any type of press.
Its just that I'm the type of person gets down on myself if I can't get close to my goals!
If I go in expect WAY to much, I am setting myself up for failure!

Thank for any help!!

 

[S&W WHEELNUT]

Primers

It may not be the press at all ???? It may be Primers . I found over the years of reloading that different primer work well and others don't. I use Federal Primers ONLY they have a softer shell. If you have any guns that have lite triggers you will need to use the Federal. CCI have a very hard shell... I may have 1 or 2 out of 500 I reload may be failures. You need to seat the primers all the down, that could be some of your problem also.When the primer is struck it will move in the pocket.Try some Federal primers I think you will like them.Last Sunday my son and I were at a Steel match shooting 22s I have a 617 10shot I shot loaded 10 shot 3 and the other 7 didn't go bang. It happens to all of use one time or another. GOOD LUCK

 

[srgvaz]

How many failures do you accept?

-0-

How many failures do you average?

1 or 2 every few years.

 

[DiscoRacing]

ive only had maybe four or five in a little over a year...aprox 2,000 rds or more.

 

[MSgt G]

It's not the machine; probably the primers as mentioned above. See what he uses and encourage him to try something else. The amount of failures he's having isn't acceptable.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Those folks don't need a different press, they need a different loader!

JJ,
I have loaded for quite a while now. Over the whole course of time, I haven't had 4 unexplained failures! Within the last 3 years, I have been loading on progressive equipment. Dillon Square Deal B's and a new XL650. The faster I load means I have more good bullets, not more bad ones!

Yes, the XL650 will crank out the rounds, but why crank them out if all you do is increase your inconsistency?

No, they are being careless regardless of their longevity in shooting sports. I can almost guarantee that they aren't seating the primer correctly and the first hit is seating it the rest of the way. Tell them to get a Taurus 24/7 that can drop the hammer without the slide being cycled and I bet their failure rate goes down!

It is either that OR they have lightened the triggers/hammers to the point they don't have enough energy to consistently cause a primer to ignite, now, I have had that problem. It was easily diagnosable and repair.

How many failures to fire would be acceptable from factory ammo? What about your carry ammo? Mine happen to be handloads, I accept no failures.

Hope this helps.

 

[AzShooter]

I expect zero failures when reloading. I load on a Dillon 550 for all rounds that take large primers and i use a 650 for my .38s. I fire about 3000 rounds a month and do not have any failures.

I see it all the time, normally caused by someone doing home gunsmithing and reducing tension on their mainspring. Then they go to a match and don't test the ammo before hand.

The other problem may be do to primer types. I recently had a problem with my ammo loaded with Wolf primers. I was at the public range and tested them and when they wouldn't go off I adjusted my mainspring enough and then shot 50 to make sure they worked. After that I shot a match the same night. I have since fired 1200 rounds with the Wolf primers without a hitch.

If you intend to stake your life on your gun you cannot aford one round not going off.

 

[TSQUARED]

Could the problem be due to primers which are not fully seated? I load evrything on a Dillon 550 but do so to turn out one good rounf with each pull of the handle - I am not into setting speed records. This last winter one of the "speedloaders" threw some ammo into the bucket and I noticed 20+ rounds of 9mm either without primers or with primers loaded ipside down.

 

[buckeyeshooter1]

I've had 2 in 36 years of handloading. Its 2 too many in my book.

 

[MMA10mm]

JJ,
I have loaded for quite a while now. Over the whole course of time, I haven't had 4 unexplained failures! Within the last 3 years, I have been loading on progressive equipment. Dillon Square Deal B's and a new XL650. The faster I load means I have more good bullets, not more bad ones!

Yes, the XL650 will crank out the rounds, but why crank them out if all you do is increase your inconsistency?

No, they are being careless regardless of their longevity in shooting sports. I can almost guarantee that they aren't seating the primer correctly and the first hit is seating it the rest of the way. Tell them to get a Taurus 24/7 that can drop the hammer without the slide being cycled and I bet their failure rate goes down!

It is either that OR they have lightened the triggers/hammers to the point they don't have enough energy to consistently cause a primer to ignite, now, I have had that problem. It was easily diagnosable and repair.

How many failures to fire would be acceptable from factory ammo? What about your carry ammo? Mine happen to be handloads, I accept no failures.

Hope this helps.

Great post. Agree completely and couldn't add more as far as causes.

Insofar as the Dillon vs. Lee, that's a debate like Ford or Chevy and "tastes great" vs. "less filling". In other words, it doesn't really matter and both sides will have their arguments pro and con for each press. Myself I use Dillon, because it's built better, has a fantastic guarantee, and runs very smoothly. Now that doesn't mean the guys who use Lee equipment can't make good loads. They certainly do. It just matters on what aspects are important to you when you buy the equipment.

Since you're in research mode, I was going to recommend you start with a single-stage press so you can slowly get used to the process and experience each stage of loading in isolation from the other stages. I (and others) feel this makes you a better loader on a progressive later, and it gives you a cheaper way into the hobby plus a back-up if your progressive goes down... Something to think about. But, since your mentor taught you on a progressive, IF you are comfortable enough with the process, you could start with a progressive.

The biggest three problems with failure to fire are: something's wrong with the gun's ignition system, the primers are bad, the primers weren't seated correctly. Other problems can be primer contamination, headspace problems, or something causing the round not to seat completely in the chamber (either out-of-spec ammo -- too long, for instance, or something hanging up on the gun -- bad magazine, etc.). It wuld be rare for any of these to do with the loading machine.

 

[n4zov]

"Since you're in research mode, I was going to recommend you start with a single-stage press so you can slowly get used to the process and experience each stage of loading in isolation from the other stages. I (and others) feel this makes you a better loader on a progressive later, and it gives you a cheaper way into the hobby plus a back-up if your progressive goes down... Something to think about. But, since your mentor taught you on a progressive, IF you are comfortable enough with the process, you could start with a progressive."

I agree. It is important to learn the basics of safe reloading before you worry about how many rounds you are producing. A simple single-stage press lets you concentrate on what you are doing without worrying about the mechanics of a progressive press. There is nothing wrong with progressives, but I don't think it makes sense to start your reloading career with one.

 

[BE Mike]

I don't generally get any failures. When I first got my Dillon 650 I had some, mostly because I didn't fully seat the primers and didn't have a good technique with the press. I take my time reloading. Back when I was shooting a lot of competition, it was extremely rare for me to have any ammo problems. I do keep my brass segregated by headstamp and number of times fired.

 

[rck281]

I have loaded 10s of thousands of rounds over the past 40 years. I expect 0 failures. The only time I've had problems was with a batch of Remington rifle primers years ago. The primers may have been stored improperly or ??? but they didn't work. Other than that, I have had maybe 2 failures in all of those rounds. In 1 case the primer had flipped and was in backwards and in another the primer went off but the powder didn't burn. Contaminated??

Don't accept any failures!

 

[Andy Griffith]

Two complete failures in 10 years. *knock on wood*

That does not count "experimental loads" that didn't work too well, but they all left the barrel- just not the same as the others.
That is what you call "load development" and is a good reason never to load more than five of them any time a component is changed in order to test the new load.

It isn't a good idea to load a bunch of anything until you've verified the load works. If components change, do another test run of a few.

Also, sometime "competition" shooters do things to guns that may make them unreliable with anything other than a specific load. I seen many fellers back out the strain screws on S&W revolvers and claim their "loads aren't any good." When I picked the gun up and saw how light the hammer tension was, I knew what the problem was.

I know of a feller at our range that didn't ever clean his brass, and he had a bunch of misfires and duds at a match. When I looked at his loads, all the primers were high and the brass was the blackest and nastiest I'd ever seen! I figure he never cleaned the primer pockets and the build up kept the primers from seating correctly. This just shows that sometimes it's the little things that "add up" to cause a failure.

 

[cp1969]

I had zero from 1968 to 1986(?) while I was single stage reloading. Then I started loading my pistol ammo on a progressive. I have had one apparent double-charge since then but zero failures to fire.

No problems ever with single-stage reloaded centerfire rifle ammo in my rifles. I've witnessed problems other people had.

 

[knotbrush]

Thar be Gremlins in every part of the reloading process! The best Gremlin repellent is firing synapses. NEVER take anything for granted, do every routine to perfection with every component critically scrutinized. Lives and limbs depend on it!

Equipment is no excuse and it all WILL fail, we just don't know when. I've almost gotten to the point of naming each finish round I produce, they are like my children and I am obligated to give them the best chance to succeed in their short lives. Too many reloaders are like crack-ho parents.

 

[SW CQB 45]

I have been reloading since early 1980s.

I have had one reloading "dink" in my reloading career that I can relate to only missing powder.

I may have had a couple of misfires with Glock and CCI primers which fired by my Colt Govt Model.

The single one with missing powder.
.38spl
Dillon 550
I was humming along when the wife called me (distraction). I was away from the press for about 15 minutes.

I returned and pulled the handle only to second guess myself "did that round have powder"?

I pulled that round, marked it with a black X on the primer/case and completed my loading.

On shooting day...I began and came across the black X round. I loaded it as the first to come up and it went "POP" and the slug stuck in the barrel. Luckily I had a push and cleared the stuck slug.

Distraction caught me but I double checked myself and I am glad I did.

I have also crushed primers or seated them sideways or backwards...but those puppies were pulled (of slug and powder) and discarded. Always with 45acp....go figure. Never and hope to never experience a bang (primer bang) on the reloading table.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

"He also stated "that they can run 100 rds in 6 minutes!"

Howdy

That says it all, right there. I am always nervous around guys who think that reloading involves nothing more than yanking the handle as fast as possible. Guys like that are not reloaders, they are machine operators. Many of the fine points of reloading have obviously escaped them. In Cowboy Action Shooting most serious shooters reload their own ammo in order to be able to afford the sport. I can tell you absolutely that I see more squibs, loads where the primer pops but there was no powder inside, than bad primers. I see it all the time, and it is unacceptable. I very seldom see bad primers, although I do see primers that do not go off because springs have been lightened too much. If it takes a second hit to fire a round, chances are there was nothing wrong with the primer, it may have been left high, which is a reloading mistake, or the hammer spring may be too light in an effort to shoot as fast as possible. Either way, it is not bad primers. No powder, however, is a reloader's error, often caused by just running the press too darn fast. The mechanism may not have time to keep up. Also, powder bridging and other things may be happening. That's why those guys make me nervous. If the powder bridges, and one round is empty, you can bet another one has a double charge.

I have been reloading metallic rounds on both single stage and progressive presses for years now. I can honestly say I have not yet had one single round that did not go bang when hit by the firing pin with enough force. If the primer did not pop, chances are it was my fault. I ain't saying it will never happen, knock wood, but in ten years now I have not had one round that did not have enough powder in it.

 

[Qmark]

I've experienced numerous failure to fires with 45ACP in both revolvers and autos, more often with the revolvers. The FTF's were due to operator error at the loading bench. In other words, I screwed up!! The reloaded cartridges were not properly headspaced.

I was loading my home cast, tumble lubing and no bullet sizing. With my revolvers when I shot without moon clips if I didn't put a little extra oomph when loading the cylinder to be certain the cartridge was all the way home the firing pin blow was cushioned as it pushed the cartridge home. I can't recall ever having one not going bang next time around. Similar problem with the auto as the poorly headspaced cartridge just gets pushed home by the firing pin and the second strike sent the slugs down range.

It was just part of my learning curve when I got into bullet casting. There was no internet back then. Like many reloaders we learned from the School of Hard Knox. I was afraid of not getting enough lube and rolled the bullets around until the lube grooves were all filled. I was rolling the lube on without cutting it with mineral spirits getting it on really thick then coating the bullets with Motor Mica. I apparently missed the sentence that said to dust with the Motor Mica after the lube dried and put way to much on while the lube was still wet.

Properly crimping the cartridge with the over sized (.454) bullet cured the problem. Improving my lubing technique probably did more the fix things than proper crimping. I now use a hard lube and size my cast bullets with a RCBS Lube Matic.

The shot to shot accuracy though with the unsized, over lubed bullets were by far the best shooting combination I've shot in my old and very well worn 1937 Brazilian Model 1917. The over lubed, over size bullets didn't improve anything in my other 45's. Didn't take to many to crud up my 45 auto.

If I were to ever do any serious shooting with what I refer to as my semi-retired Brazilian again. I'd load them nearly the same way, shooting unsized bullets from the 454 mold but they will be properly lubed, carefully crimped and to assure they all go bang and save my finger nails. I'll use moon clips.

 

[ColColt]

The biggest three problems with failure to fire are: something's wrong with the gun's ignition system, the primers are bad, the primers weren't seated correctly. Other problems can be primer contamination, headspace problems, or something causing the round not to seat completely in the chamber (either out-of-spec ammo -- too long, for instance, or something hanging up on the gun -- bad magazine, etc.). It wuld be rare for any of these to do with the loading machine.

This pretty much nails it down. the only FTF I've had if memory serves me correctly wasn't with reloads-it was factory loads. One out of a box of 20...premium ammo might I add at nearly $30 a box, had a dead primer. There was a primer indent but no bang. Another "premium" box of ammo from another manufacturer was a squib load...totally unacceptable far as I'm concerned and I don't use or buy either of these brands anymore. This wasn't 10 or 15 years ago but in the past few months.

I can only recall a couple of incidents at the bench that had the potential of creating a problem but fortunately, I caught it was when a primer flipped over in the holder and I seated it before realizing it. I just canned that round.

Contamination of the primer is very likely if you do single stage reloading as I do in that if you handle each primer there's a potential that if you haven't washed your hands well after changing the oil in your car or cleaning one of your pistols before hitting the reloading bench, it has the potential of contaminating the primer. Crushing the primer is another good way to get a dud.

All in all-zero is acceptable in reloads or factory ammo...especially factory. There should be NO duds in factory ammo at the premium prices charged. Your life may be in jeopardy if they screw up.

This is a shot of a well known manufacturer's dud primer. It was shot with a Glock 23. A striker has a sort of smear on the primer when it's a good one-this one doesn't.