How Many Triple-Locks
- Thread starter Dpris
- Start date
Hi Denis,
#124X is highly unlikely to be from pre contract guns group #0, and not from group #1 below; those serial #s are known. It would have to be in the Brit serial #range and therefore from group #2 below.
There were no Military orders of TLs documented to Canada.
However, there are several TLs known shipped to Canada and no doubt there's more, from these groups:
0. "Rare misc. early commercial production 44 TL 1st Models chambered in .455."
5724 - NOT CAL STAMPED 455 single gun shipment April 28,1915, from Canada
5751 - Caliber is 45 Eley, shipped in 1912 in a commercial order of 25, 5" guns to H. Robitsek, Canada
5788 - NOT CAL STAMPED; Canadian 6 1/2" barrel shipped June 4, 1915 in an order of 5 to Hurd & Co.
1. "44 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock", 812 (666 military & 146 commercially sold) in the 44 Spl # series factory converted to 455.
None known.
2. "455 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock" #1 thru #5461 in the Brit # range.
2147 - NOT CAL STAMPED, serial # not drilled thru for Lanyard, from Canada
Thanks.
Gets more complicated, huh?
I've asked him to see if his wife can maybe get a couple shots of the serial & barrel marking, but he says she's not good with cameras & has cut off more heads than the French Revolution's guillotines.
Denis
Gets more complicated, huh?
I've asked him to see if his wife can maybe get a couple shots of the serial & barrel marking, but he says she's not good with cameras & has cut off more heads than the French Revolution's guillotines.
Denis
Doug M.
Member
*
100 years ago, none of the people involved were thinking of these in terms of collector interest or value. They were thinking of them in terms making sure that they worked properly, to a standard, for soldiers in a war, and making sure that this could be readily apparent to harried/hurried soldier/clerks who had to issue them to the fighters. They were and remain, first and foremost, a tool. Most of the time, the only use that matters is in a fight with a dangerous person or a dangerous animal (often overlapping concepts), and this is true of most martial tools. Consider the katana or other tools of the samurai. Art today, but only because they were made by artisans for a serious purpose.
In some circles, a modern analysis looks at them as art of some kind, which is arguable. It is also not relevant. The same is true of modifications made by civilian users for many years, and still done today. Rural dwellers, cops, woodsmen, even target shooting competitors, etc. - they made changes to make the firearm more useful to them for serious purposes. If you have read "Sixguns", Keith commented on mean horses and meaner cows, as I recall. The only perspective relevant to the analysis is that of the user who desired the modifications.
Sorry for the divergence, but this is important stuff to remember.
I agree with your post. To many people, these weapons don't just have appeal for what they are, but also for what they represent. To me, they represent, in part, a United States, Canada and Britain, that used to exist but don't anymore. A gun with that kind of history is made better by the markings.
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Hi Dick,
And thank you.
I try to keep my personal opinions out of my posts where I'm attempting to document or summarize S&W revolver history. I'm aware that there are very divergent views about the British stamping of S&W revolvers.
Home from the meet.
Serial is 124XX.
No military markings.
All numbers match, including grip panel.
No buggered screws.
80-90% bluing.
Bore bright & shiny.
Chambers not altered.
Barrel says Smith & Wesson .455.
Mechanically perfect.
Tight lockup.
Minute fore & aft cylinder movement, if pressed.
Very little rotational cylinder play.
Crisp SA trigger, smooth DA pull.
One tiny chip on right grip panel, some wear to checkering on that panel.
Only alteration from factory is the original owner's initials very lightly scratched into the bottom of one grip panel, and you have to look for 'em to see 'em.
Flap holster supple, not brittle. Fully intact, no stitching pulls or gaps anywhere. Belt loop & toe-plug still tight.
No maker's markings.
"HL Kennedy" lightly scratched on back of holster body.
Denis
Serial is 124XX.
No military markings.
All numbers match, including grip panel.
No buggered screws.
80-90% bluing.
Bore bright & shiny.
Chambers not altered.
Barrel says Smith & Wesson .455.
Mechanically perfect.
Tight lockup.
Minute fore & aft cylinder movement, if pressed.
Very little rotational cylinder play.
Crisp SA trigger, smooth DA pull.
One tiny chip on right grip panel, some wear to checkering on that panel.
Only alteration from factory is the original owner's initials very lightly scratched into the bottom of one grip panel, and you have to look for 'em to see 'em.
Flap holster supple, not brittle. Fully intact, no stitching pulls or gaps anywhere. Belt loop & toe-plug still tight.
No maker's markings.
"HL Kennedy" lightly scratched on back of holster body.
Denis
With Hondo's blessing, based on photos & descriptions via emails, the gun & holster are now new residents at my house.
He felt comfortable in suggesting $2000, buddy agreed.
I have more expensive guns here, but none more historically significant, both in terms of S&W history, and world history.
Also have Smiths here that are only 30 years or so old, and don't look as good as this Triple Lock does at 101 years of age.
Thanks all for the discussion.
And particularly to Hondo for his patience & help.
Denis
He felt comfortable in suggesting $2000, buddy agreed.
I have more expensive guns here, but none more historically significant, both in terms of S&W history, and world history.
Also have Smiths here that are only 30 years or so old, and don't look as good as this Triple Lock does at 101 years of age.
Thanks all for the discussion.
And particularly to Hondo for his patience & help.
Denis
In all my years of career gunnery, had previously never even seen a legendary Triple Lock, much less expected to ever own one.
Quite happy here.
Tried to sleep with it the night it came home, but it's too big to fit in our bed between the two of us.
It spent the night on the nightstand, next to the EDC M&P.
I asked my bride if she'd feel I was maritally unfaithful if I did sleep with it during her next trip to Hawaii to visit family, she gave me the go-ahead & said she wouldn't feel totally betrayed.
Denis
Quite happy here.
Tried to sleep with it the night it came home, but it's too big to fit in our bed between the two of us.
It spent the night on the nightstand, next to the EDC M&P.
I asked my bride if she'd feel I was maritally unfaithful if I did sleep with it during her next trip to Hawaii to visit family, she gave me the go-ahead & said she wouldn't feel totally betrayed.
Denis
Just to close this out-
Letter today says this gun shipped to a firm in Ottawa, Canada, on May 3, 1916.
One of approx 955 of the First Models in .455 for the British government.
One of 160 "units" left in inventory & sold on the commercial market.
Canadian archives show its owner was at a staging base in in England by November of 1915, so he could not have bought it himself (unless the business was willing to do mail-order).
Thinking possibly a gift from his father (Northwest Mounted Police officer), a gift from someone else, or he could have saved up his $15 monthly pay and sent it home for someone to buy & mail it for him.
I have copies of his service records from sign-up in mid-1915 to de-mob in early 1919.
Fascinating.
Denis
Letter today says this gun shipped to a firm in Ottawa, Canada, on May 3, 1916.
One of approx 955 of the First Models in .455 for the British government.
One of 160 "units" left in inventory & sold on the commercial market.
Canadian archives show its owner was at a staging base in in England by November of 1915, so he could not have bought it himself (unless the business was willing to do mail-order).
Thinking possibly a gift from his father (Northwest Mounted Police officer), a gift from someone else, or he could have saved up his $15 monthly pay and sent it home for someone to buy & mail it for him.
I have copies of his service records from sign-up in mid-1915 to de-mob in early 1919.
Fascinating.
Denis
Congratulations...I enjoyed reading this thread and as often happens learned something in the process.
Thanks.
I can't afford to be a collector, but this one was just too good to pass up.
It's created a desire to fill in the picture of the man who took it to war, as far as possible, and to put the gun in context.
Reading up on Canadian involvement in WWI.
Astoundingly, I've discovered that there were actually OTHER countries who participated against the European Central Powers, and the US did NOT, in truth, win the war single-handedly, as we're pretty much taught from birth.
Interesting to see that war from the Canadian perspective, they were far more involved than most of us know.
Dealing with a very kind lady at the Canadian War Museum who provided his service records, and in the middle of looking for archival period photos there.
The original owner was hospitalized for tonsillitis & scabies, two of the most common "trench" afflictions of the war.
His monthly pay as an artillery gunner at the front lines was $15.
He was a "draughtsman" before enlisting at age 21.
He received no promotions during his tour, and shows no record of disciplinary actions.
He was never wounded in battle.
Aside from that, family lore says he was one of many who jumped on a rescue boat that set out to aid survivors of the Titanic in 1912, and found only bodies.
Years later, he sailed on the Titanic's sister ship after it had been converted to a wartime troop carrier.
Still quite a bit of research to do.
The 101-year-old warhorse may not have travelled through Dodge City or Tombstone, and it never belonged to Bat Masterson or Wyatt Earp, but it's still a legitimate piece of world history, even aside from its intrinsic value as a collector piece and excellent sample of Smith & Wesson at its finest.
Denis
I can't afford to be a collector, but this one was just too good to pass up.
It's created a desire to fill in the picture of the man who took it to war, as far as possible, and to put the gun in context.
Reading up on Canadian involvement in WWI.
Astoundingly, I've discovered that there were actually OTHER countries who participated against the European Central Powers, and the US did NOT, in truth, win the war single-handedly, as we're pretty much taught from birth.
Interesting to see that war from the Canadian perspective, they were far more involved than most of us know.
Dealing with a very kind lady at the Canadian War Museum who provided his service records, and in the middle of looking for archival period photos there.
The original owner was hospitalized for tonsillitis & scabies, two of the most common "trench" afflictions of the war.
His monthly pay as an artillery gunner at the front lines was $15.
He was a "draughtsman" before enlisting at age 21.
He received no promotions during his tour, and shows no record of disciplinary actions.
He was never wounded in battle.
Aside from that, family lore says he was one of many who jumped on a rescue boat that set out to aid survivors of the Titanic in 1912, and found only bodies.
Years later, he sailed on the Titanic's sister ship after it had been converted to a wartime troop carrier.
Still quite a bit of research to do.
The 101-year-old warhorse may not have travelled through Dodge City or Tombstone, and it never belonged to Bat Masterson or Wyatt Earp, but it's still a legitimate piece of world history, even aside from its intrinsic value as a collector piece and excellent sample of Smith & Wesson at its finest.
Denis
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- Joined
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For more on Canadian involvement, US involvement and the evolution of sniping "A Rifleman Went to War" by Herbert McBride makes good reading.
Hondo44,
RE the above:
3. "455 Mk II Hand Ejector 1st Model" TLs:
NONE
perhaps you can clear up what is likely a misunderstanding on my part. it is obvious to even the most casual observer upon seeing all the info you supplied, that you have forgotten more triple lock data than i will ever know.
in my 2/3/2009 letter from Mr. Jinks when he was still S&W historian, it states that my triple:
..."caliber .455 Hand Ejector First Model (Triple-Lock), British Government Contract, caliber .455 Mark II, with serial number 3424...was shipped on December, 23, 1914....to Remington Arms- Union Metallic Cartridge Co"...
who was then shipping agent for the British Govt to export to the UK.
any info greatly appreciated,
netex
RE the above:
3. "455 Mk II Hand Ejector 1st Model" TLs:
NONE
perhaps you can clear up what is likely a misunderstanding on my part. it is obvious to even the most casual observer upon seeing all the info you supplied, that you have forgotten more triple lock data than i will ever know.
in my 2/3/2009 letter from Mr. Jinks when he was still S&W historian, it states that my triple:
..."caliber .455 Hand Ejector First Model (Triple-Lock), British Government Contract, caliber .455 Mark II, with serial number 3424...was shipped on December, 23, 1914....to Remington Arms- Union Metallic Cartridge Co"...
who was then shipping agent for the British Govt to export to the UK.
any info greatly appreciated,
netex
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Welcome to the forum.
Yours is in group 2. in the summary below:
THERE ARE THREE BASIC VERSIONS OF .455 chambered Hand Ejector revolvers made by S&W under contract to the British for WW I. All three groups include some triple locks, but those in the 3rd group (3.B.) are actually the same as those in the 1st group. "When" roll marked with the cal., they are roll marked only S&W 455 because all versions are actually reamed to also chamber the longer MK I cartridge per the British contract. Therefore the 'book name' references of 455 Mark II for all versions of S&W 455 chambered revolvers is a bit of a misnomer.
This is not be confused with the British revolver name "MK II" for the 455 Mark II HE – 2nd Model, which the British stamped MK II on the left rear frame of the revolvers and are known as such by them.
The WWI British contract Colt is marked ".455 ELEY", different than The S&W 455 marking.
They are:
1. ".44 HE - 1st Model", 'Triple Lock', chambered for .455: 812* factory reconfigured unassembled or unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models", often not stamped .455, original chamberings unknown but most or all were likely originally .44 Spl. For the British military there are 666 #s 1104 thru 10417 (obviously not all serial #s in this range were used for the 666), the majority shipped Oct 21, 1914. The extra 146 in serial range #s 9858-10007 went to the commercial market; 123 to England Oct 1,1914, and 23 in the US Jan 1, 1918 [N&J pgs. 203-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #'d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1 to 10007. Per Neal & Jinks. Pg. 214, these are known to have been stamped SMITH & WESSON but not including the 455 cal. stamp.
* SCSW reports "over 800", but by shipped serial # count, it's actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&W N&J pgs. 203 - 205].
The 666 were shipped in 33 different groups ranging from 4/8/14 to 4/28/16 with the majority delivered 10/21/14. These will often have added lanyard swivels when converted to 455 at the factory by drilling thru the serial # which is factory re-stamped on the left side of the grip frame under the stock.
The 146 .44 HE 1st Models that were converted/built as .455s assembled some time after the first 666 military .44 1st Model .455 TLs and sold commercially; 123 were sold to the British, shipped to Wilkinson Sword 10/1/14 and 23 sold in the US, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918.
The 23 at some point were converted to .45 Colt and it's unknown if by the factory before shipment to Shapleigh or after delivery to Shapleigh. However even IF converted by the factory (as suggested in a September 2013 Rock Island gun auction narrative), the revolvers would not have a star on the butt or a rework date on the grip frame because they did not go back to the factory for conversion as rework, they were converted before they left the factory.
2. ".455 Mark II HE - 1st Model TL" in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] made 1914-15. Thus creating 63* duplicate serial #s with the 666 1st version in #1. above in the ".44 HE 1st Model TL" chambered in .455, serial number range.
*There are 63 duplicate TL #s existing of the 666 contract listed numbers of .44 HE TLs chambered in .455 (1st version), #s 1104-3320 in the .44 HE #range - not all inclusive, known and listed, with 63 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (2nd version) #s 1–5461 in the Brit contract # range.
There's also duplicate #s of the .44 HE 1st Model TL .455s #5462 to #15375 (the last .44 HE 1st Model TL serial # known), of ~796 with .455 HE 2nd Models (3rd version) #s 5462 up thru #10007 in the Brit range, but the exact #s of duplicates is unknown because not all #s are known to have been used in either range.
3.A. ".455 Mark II HE - 2nd Model" (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock), but with slightly larger cylinder/frame window dimensions from versions 1. the ".44 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" factory converted to .455, and 2. the ".455 HE 1st Model TL" produced in .455.
The 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning #5462 to #74755, shipped 1915-17.
By Feb 1916 724 were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203].
Another 15 in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916.
The Canadian military also bought 14,500 .455 2nd Models [H of S&W, pg. 203].
And 1105 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&W, N&J pg. 216].
3.B. "As the Brit contracts were finishing up in [April, H of S&W pg. 203] 1916, S&W found enough [44 HE frames and 455] parts to build 691 .44 HE 1st Model [per Roy Jinks in various letters], Triple Lock frames [like #1. above chambered in .455]. These guns are also numbered in the .44 Spl serial number series. I have no idea why they were not just numbered in the .455 series. Perhaps it was .455 barrels and cylinders that the factory found, and they simply turned again to existing 44 HE 1st Model TL frames to use them up. They were sold commercially." Lee Jarrett
11/3/15 "In April, 1916, the Factory found enough parts to assemble 691 Triple Lock 455s. They were assembled from April to Oct of 1916. They were numbered [late] in the 44 HE series. All I have seen are numbered from the 12,000 to 14,000's. [sold in 1916 and 1917 - 325 were sold to Shapleigh Hardware Co. and some to Simmons Hardware Co., St. Louis, MO]
Some letter as being commercial sales, but I have long suspected that S&W simply slid many into the last of the British shipments at the standard price for the 455-2nd Models. I say that because I have observed several now with Brit ordnance marks and/or commercial proofs." Lee Jarrett
Please let me know if you still have any questions. Also for the database I'm creating in this thread: .455 Mk II revolver research thread would you mind reporting the markings on the left side of the barrel?
Yours is in group 2. in the summary below:
THERE ARE THREE BASIC VERSIONS OF .455 chambered Hand Ejector revolvers made by S&W under contract to the British for WW I. All three groups include some triple locks, but those in the 3rd group (3.B.) are actually the same as those in the 1st group. "When" roll marked with the cal., they are roll marked only S&W 455 because all versions are actually reamed to also chamber the longer MK I cartridge per the British contract. Therefore the 'book name' references of 455 Mark II for all versions of S&W 455 chambered revolvers is a bit of a misnomer.
This is not be confused with the British revolver name "MK II" for the 455 Mark II HE – 2nd Model, which the British stamped MK II on the left rear frame of the revolvers and are known as such by them.
The WWI British contract Colt is marked ".455 ELEY", different than The S&W 455 marking.
They are:
1. ".44 HE - 1st Model", 'Triple Lock', chambered for .455: 812* factory reconfigured unassembled or unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models", often not stamped .455, original chamberings unknown but most or all were likely originally .44 Spl. For the British military there are 666 #s 1104 thru 10417 (obviously not all serial #s in this range were used for the 666), the majority shipped Oct 21, 1914. The extra 146 in serial range #s 9858-10007 went to the commercial market; 123 to England Oct 1,1914, and 23 in the US Jan 1, 1918 [N&J pgs. 203-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #'d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1 to 10007. Per Neal & Jinks. Pg. 214, these are known to have been stamped SMITH & WESSON but not including the 455 cal. stamp.
* SCSW reports "over 800", but by shipped serial # count, it's actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&W N&J pgs. 203 - 205].
The 666 were shipped in 33 different groups ranging from 4/8/14 to 4/28/16 with the majority delivered 10/21/14. These will often have added lanyard swivels when converted to 455 at the factory by drilling thru the serial # which is factory re-stamped on the left side of the grip frame under the stock.
The 146 .44 HE 1st Models that were converted/built as .455s assembled some time after the first 666 military .44 1st Model .455 TLs and sold commercially; 123 were sold to the British, shipped to Wilkinson Sword 10/1/14 and 23 sold in the US, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918.
The 23 at some point were converted to .45 Colt and it's unknown if by the factory before shipment to Shapleigh or after delivery to Shapleigh. However even IF converted by the factory (as suggested in a September 2013 Rock Island gun auction narrative), the revolvers would not have a star on the butt or a rework date on the grip frame because they did not go back to the factory for conversion as rework, they were converted before they left the factory.
2. ".455 Mark II HE - 1st Model TL" in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] made 1914-15. Thus creating 63* duplicate serial #s with the 666 1st version in #1. above in the ".44 HE 1st Model TL" chambered in .455, serial number range.
*There are 63 duplicate TL #s existing of the 666 contract listed numbers of .44 HE TLs chambered in .455 (1st version), #s 1104-3320 in the .44 HE #range - not all inclusive, known and listed, with 63 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (2nd version) #s 1–5461 in the Brit contract # range.
There's also duplicate #s of the .44 HE 1st Model TL .455s #5462 to #15375 (the last .44 HE 1st Model TL serial # known), of ~796 with .455 HE 2nd Models (3rd version) #s 5462 up thru #10007 in the Brit range, but the exact #s of duplicates is unknown because not all #s are known to have been used in either range.
3.A. ".455 Mark II HE - 2nd Model" (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock), but with slightly larger cylinder/frame window dimensions from versions 1. the ".44 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" factory converted to .455, and 2. the ".455 HE 1st Model TL" produced in .455.
The 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning #5462 to #74755, shipped 1915-17.
By Feb 1916 724 were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203].
Another 15 in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916.
The Canadian military also bought 14,500 .455 2nd Models [H of S&W, pg. 203].
And 1105 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&W, N&J pg. 216].
3.B. "As the Brit contracts were finishing up in [April, H of S&W pg. 203] 1916, S&W found enough [44 HE frames and 455] parts to build 691 .44 HE 1st Model [per Roy Jinks in various letters], Triple Lock frames [like #1. above chambered in .455]. These guns are also numbered in the .44 Spl serial number series. I have no idea why they were not just numbered in the .455 series. Perhaps it was .455 barrels and cylinders that the factory found, and they simply turned again to existing 44 HE 1st Model TL frames to use them up. They were sold commercially." Lee Jarrett
11/3/15 "In April, 1916, the Factory found enough parts to assemble 691 Triple Lock 455s. They were assembled from April to Oct of 1916. They were numbered [late] in the 44 HE series. All I have seen are numbered from the 12,000 to 14,000's. [sold in 1916 and 1917 - 325 were sold to Shapleigh Hardware Co. and some to Simmons Hardware Co., St. Louis, MO]
Some letter as being commercial sales, but I have long suspected that S&W simply slid many into the last of the British shipments at the standard price for the 455-2nd Models. I say that because I have observed several now with Brit ordnance marks and/or commercial proofs." Lee Jarrett
Please let me know if you still have any questions. Also for the database I'm creating in this thread: .455 Mk II revolver research thread would you mind reporting the markings on the left side of the barrel?
S&WsRsweet
Member
Dpris,thanks for hanging in and posting I as an old shooter of S&Ws but new to the world of triple locks ,registered magnums ect in the collecting community really appreciate the exercise in information gathering displayed in this thread .Congatulations on being the newest caretaker of a fine handgun with excellent provenance .Honerable mention to all who added information with special thanks to Hondo for once again putting on a class on Smith and Wesson revolvers,us newer collector wannabes need all the help we can get .As for sleeping with a gun ,on my honey moon as the wife slipped into bed I saw her eyes just light up as she ran her fingers down that stiff long extension of me and representation of who I am as a man but when she realized it was a 629 revolver with an eight inch plus barrel in a leather holster I saw for the first time that look of true disappointment I have become so accustomed to ,but for a brief few seconds I thought wow she really loves guns to I have found my soul mate .
