How safe is the M&P without the manual safety

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1sailor

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Okay, please don't start with me till you read my explanation. I've never owned a DAO pistol before. I do own a hamerless J frame that I carry and feel perfectly fine with it. I always thought that a DAO auto would have a trigger similar to a DA revolver or like the first shot on a SA/DA auto. So, I figured that carrying one without a safety would be just like carrying my J frame. Anyway, yesterday was the first time I got to feel the trigger on an M&P and it's nothing like a DA revolver. It took almost no force to take the slack out of the trigger. Then with a very slight pull "click". Surprised me because I was expecting the whole mechanical thing like a revolver. This was more like pulling the trigger on a cocked pistol. That got me to wondering just how safe is it to carry with one in the pipe. I suppose that the holster would protect the trigger from being pulled back which means the gun couldn't fire. I understand about a trigger safety. It just seems kind of sketchy to me. Maybe because I'm not used to it (I have owned several pistols in my liftime but never a DAO). Can I get a little feedback on this please. Is the main focus to rely on the holster to cover the trigger. Just seemed like it would be awfully easy to inadvertantly pull back such an easy trigger. By the way, the pistol I tried was a Pro series. Also, I don't hear about a lot of guys shooting themselves with them so I must be missing something here.
 
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As safe as it gets...keep your finger out of the trigger guard on ALL guns and you will never have a problem. YOU are the safety not the lever on the gun.
Randy
 
Yes, I understand that. I suppose it's just a different set of rules as compared to a DAO revolver. Of course you keep your finger away from the trigger on a revolver also but the length and weight of the pull has always been considered a safety feature. And please bear in mind I am NOT trying to say they're not safe. I guess I was just kind of taken back by the ease with which the trigger could be pulled. It was nothing like I expected. I don't plan on carrying an M&P concealed as I am satisfied with my J frame (also an M&P ironicaly). Also, I grew up with automatics that had hammers and safeties so this is an entirely new relm for me.
 
trigger pull

the m&p is not a double action only pistol, it is very similar to glock safe action, the double action only on guns like kahr, and sig 250 and several others is very much like a double action revolver. the m&p and glocks require some type holster to be safe enough for carry.
 
Thanks, that's pretty much what I was thinking. I had fired a Kahr before and I suppose that's what I was expecting the M&P to be like.
 
They are "safe", but far less forgiving of human error (we ARE all human), so a negligent discharge is more likely. The NYPD authorizes 3 semi autos, the Glock 19, the S&W 5946, and the SIG 226. All officers receive the same training. At the time that i retired, there were ZERO ND's with the Sig or Smith. Every one of them were with a Glock. Reholstering after a footchase or while wrestling with somebody is NOT like shooting at the range. We always trained to holster with the thumb on the hammer to prevent those ND's. Seems to have worked since nobody ever had an ND with a Smith or SIG.

For an experienced shooter,striker fired guns are fine. They're a bad idea for new shooters.
 
A long/heavy trigger pull would seem to be less prone to having an accident, like a DAO J frame or Kahr. There are reports of Glocks firing with holstering when a foreign object got into the top (a jacket strap or cord)? A grip safety like the one on the XD may help prevent this type of problem from happening.
 
missiondude said:
You could always buy a Massachussets spec M&P with its 10 pound trigger pull.
Click to expand...

Stock Glocks come with a 5.5 pound trigger pull, which is extremely light. The NYPD guns all had 12 pound "NY Triggers" installed, and still dozens of ND's.
 
Since S&W thoughtfully offers a manual safety option, go for it if you have concerns. The thumb safety is a good thing, IMHO. My M&Ps have them.
 
I have a safety on one of mine. I cut off the right hand side, and it seems to stay on while carrying concealed. I don't think it snaps into position as securely as a 1911, but I don't worry about it. I carry with one in the pipe with no worries whatsoever. I carry in a crossbreed supertuck. I also carry my 1911 cocked and locked in a supertuck.

Keep your booger-hook off the bang-switch and it won't fire (I love that saying).
 
Ah, you've discovered the truth about "DAO" striker-fired guns - they are not DAO guns. :eek:

A true DA trigger both cocks the action and releases the trigger. The action on an M&P is 98% cocked by the slide leaving a miniscule 2% left for the trigger - something that is indistinguishable for the shooter. In fact, S&W literature talks about how they developed the M&P to mimic an SA trigger.

And quite frankly, they did a pretty good job of it. My M&P 40L has a drop-in Apex trigger kit that results in a 2.7# trigger - a full pound lighter than either of my far more expensive 1911's. Sure, nothing will make the M&P trigger as slick as a good 1911 trigger, but these allegedly DAO guns are routinely beating the 1911s in competition. They are that fast.

Too fast for defensive use IMHO.

If you are facing down a bad guy and have your gun drawn and pointed at him, then rest assured that the safety is off and your finger is on the trigger.

But, that does not mean that the decision has been made to shoot him. Not yet. If you're lucky he'll turn and run like crazy and you managed to NOT press the trigger enough to make the gun fire, then the scenario ended without having to shoot anyone.

OTOH, if your finger pressed the trigger just a tad too much because you had gallons of adrenalin pumping through the veins & your fine motor skills went south and you shot the guy as he was turning and running - well, that was a very bad day for both him and you.

I prefer DA/SA or true DAO guns for defensive use. I want a relatively long and heavy trigger pull on the first shot because I know that half the brain goes out the window in a real deal scenario as well as all wonderful fine motor skills we finesse our target and competition triggers with. That usually means starting out with a brand new 10# DA trigger that will turn into a lovely 7# trigger after action work. Perfect for defensive use.

We have owned several M&Ps and my M&P 40L is my favorite competition pistol. Our first was a 9c that I bought for concealed carry. That didn't last very long once I realized how easy it was to deploy the trigger. While not as nice as a 1911 trigger, the stock M&P trigger is just about as easy to pull as a basic 1911 trigger. In fact, S&W says that they developed the M&P to mimic an SAO trigger. As a result, the M&P trigger is far easier to deploy than on any of our Sig's, S&W 3913's or Kahr's. So, I carry Kahr's when I want small and light, Sig's when I want more capacity and the 3913 when I can't make up my mind. :rolleyes: BTW, I do have a very nice 1911 for carry, but it isn't my favorite because it is simply too darn fast on the first shot, and not one bit faster on the second than my Sig; probably slower.

Do no harm.

Wyatt Earp said "Draw fast, shoot slow." That's easier to do when the gun is designed with that in mind.

Our solution was to sell my M&P 9c carry pistol and replace it with Sig P226 & P6 for home defense and Kahr K9/PM40/CM9 for carry. We've just recently augmented/replaced the Kahr's with a pair of S&W 3913's with true DA/SA triggers.
 
My only fear firing a pistol with no safety has always been when holstering a cocked pistol. I've been in competition twice where I have had my t-shirt bunch up in between the trigger guard and the kydex as I holstered after loading a round. I felt it and caught it, and now always ensure I pull my shirt tight to my side when holstering but something to consider.
 
EvilBetty said:
My only fear firing a pistol with no safety has always been when holstering a cocked pistol. I've been in competition twice where I have had my t-shirt bunch up in between the trigger guard and the kydex as I holstered after loading a round. I felt it and caught it, and now always ensure I pull my shirt tight to my side when holstering but something to consider.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Now ask yourself if you would have felt that after a self defense scenario, when your adrenaline is coursing through you. Most of the ND's experienced when I was on the job were while reholstering after a stressful situation like a chase or a felony car stop. Glock became so popular and every other company tried to jump on the bandwagon and offer their own version. I think striker fired guns are horrible choices for new shooters unless they have an extra layer of safety. The XD offers a good compromise with the grip safety.
 
Lots of good stuff already posted here. I might add that a very close examination of the striker-fired action usually helps folks new to that design get over their worries. Apex Tactical has a couple of good videos they used to help people install their trigger kits, and you can follow along with a field-stripped pistol and get a real good idea of how it all works, and "why" the design has favorable safety characteristics.

Please don't ever holster "fast."
 
OlympicFox said:
If you are facing down a bad guy and have your gun drawn and pointed at him, then rest assured that the safety is off and your finger is on the trigger.

But, that does not mean that the decision has been made to shoot him. Not yet. If you're lucky he'll turn and run like crazy and you managed to NOT press the trigger enough to make the gun fire, then the scenario ended without having to shoot anyone.
Click to expand...

Not to quibble, but wouldn't it be better to keep your finger off the trigger until you HAVE made the decision to shoot? If you are still undecided, then IMO you shouldn't have your finger on the trigger...to eliminate a chance of unintentionally firing. With training/practice, it won't add any appreciable time to when you actually do fire.

I do agree, though, that trigger management is something to be more aware of with a pistol like the M&P as opposed to a conventional DA/SA action like a SIG or 3rd Gen S&W.
 
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My .40 came with an ambi TS-I took it off. I carry a Glock 22 on duty and my M&P or 1911(Condition 1) off duty. Our training is draw fast and safe and when it's over, you have all of the time in the world to re-holster. Your brain is always your safety.
 
To answer your original question, the tool is as safe as any inanimate object. I carry the full size .45 (no external saftey) with mag extensions in a crossbreed daily. Lots of helpful info. I hope it helps.
 
sna0403 said:
My .40 came with an ambi TS-I took it off. I carry a Glock 22 on duty and my M&P or 1911(Condition 1) off duty. Our training is draw fast and safe and when it's over, you have all of the time in the world to re-holster. Your brain is always your safety.
Click to expand...

After a shooting, you're not gonna cooley holster. During a felony carstop, you're not gonna cooly holster as you move in to cuff the perp. And you're not gonna have time to even look at your holster as you wrestle with some guy.
 
Been carrying both my M&P9c and 45c in condition one for a couple of years now and neither one has the external safety. I carry in a good quality IWB holster and have NEVER had a negligent discharge.

Practice all laws of gun safety every time and you will be perfectly safe as will those around you.
 
Probably why I chose the 40c with thumb safety. All are correct that the primary safety is your trigger finger and the stuff between your ears. After decades of 1911 shooting I'm more comfortable with the safety. It comes down to training and individual preference. The bottom line is that any pistol is only as safe as its operator.
 
If you think a safety is mandatory or even desirable you MUST place the pistol on FIRE every time you draw the holster even if you never put it on SAFE or it'll be on Safe when you really, really need it on fire. Hence the M1911 mandated grip with the thumb on the top of the lever. After decades of M1911 shooting I assume you're keeping your thumb on top of the safety lever at all times the pistol is in hand.

The M&P frame safety doesn't lend itself to this technique. I've learned to live with this on the M1911 but the lever and therefore the technique is not necessary on most other pistols.

As I gaze upon my eclectic collection of handguns I notice the ONLY pistol I own with a manual safety is my M1911 (actually several). All my modern pistols: M&P9, HK45C, USP9C, P2000SK, Beretta M92G, SIG P6, Glock 19 -- no external safeties. And no need for them. All the HKs are LEM with no levers. The SIG and Beretta are DA/SA -- decock only. You're all familiar with Glocks and M&P.

Not even John Browning thought the frame safety was necessary on the M1911. Trials pistols only had the grip safety. The Army insisted, just like they insisted on the backwards slide mounted safety on the Beretta M92 which begat the M92FS/M9.

-- Chuck
 
chuck s said:
If you think a safety is mandatory or even desirable you MUST place the pistol on FIRE every time you draw the holster even if you never put it on SAFE or it'll be on Safe when you really, really need it on fire. Hence the M1911 mandated grip with the thumb on the top of the lever. After decades of M1911 shooting I assume you're keeping your thumb on top of the safety lever at all times the pistol is in hand.
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That is all right on target. A practiced 1911 shooter will not "forget" to disengage the thumb safety. The muscle memory is to automatic when the gun is held properly .

chuck s said:
The M&P frame safety doesn't lend itself to this technique.
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I can't agree with that. After years with the M1911, the M&P safety feels great to me.

chuck s said:
Not even John Browning thought the frame safety was necessary on the M1911. Trials pistols only had the grip safety. The Army insisted, just like they insisted on the backwards slide mounted safety on the Beretta M92 which begat the M92FS/M9.

-- Chuck
Click to expand...

If that is the case, I wonder if JMB ever meant for the gun to be carried in Condition 1. It is hard to imagine carrying a 1911 cocked and unlocked.
 
As safe as a Glock or a Sigma. :D
Operator is more important than the system.
 
kbm6893 said:
After a shooting, you're not gonna cooley holster. During a felony carstop, you're not gonna cooly holster as you move in to cuff the perp. And you're not gonna have time to even look at your holster as you wrestle with some guy.
Click to expand...

Not a LEO so Im not really qulified to offer an opinion concerning that stress level vs. training issue. I do; however, have a question. In that same stressful situation, would you also have proplems re-safeing an M&P type gun?

I know that I alwas keep TF out of the trigger when holstering, but I'm also not in a big rush.
 
My agency is on it's 6th year if issuing the M&P9. (was about 1,200 guns until we stopped hiring new officers to replace those retiring, ect. due to budget cuts) The T&E guns we received were the first three 9mm M&P's to leave the factory. We tested the **** out of them.

Safety was a huge concern during the T&E process. We dropped guns, skipped guns, banged on guns, anything we could think of to see if the gun would go off (no live ammunition in chamber of course).

I am convinced that the ONLY way to get a M&P pistol to fire is to pull the trigger.

To the OP, there is nothing mechanically unsafe with the design. But just like a Glock, I would not carry the gun in a waist band without a holster covering the trigger guard.

Our issued M&P's do not have an exterior manual safety.

When we transitioned to the M&P we also transitioned to the Safariland ALS holster (level 3 but I don't remember the model number off hand). Reholstering under stress has never been a issue. Be it during a high risk (felony stop), after being involved in a OIS, what ever. All of our officer's inservice training with their pistol involves using their gunbelt. Re-holstering the gun is a non-issue. If the individual has to look at their holster in order to re-holster, than there's something wrong. This is a training issue, pure and simple. For CCW/off-duty usage, a well designed holster that stays open will prevent issues also.
 
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g_conway said:
Not a LEO so Im not really qulified to offer an opinion concerning that stress level vs. training issue. I do; however, have a question. In that same stressful situation, would you also have proplems re-safeing an M&P type gun?

I know that I alwas keep TF out of the trigger when holstering, but I'm also not in a big rush.
Click to expand...

Putting the gun on safe is not nearly as stressful since the finger that does it is not the trigger finger. Which is why I prefer (and strongly support cops using) a hammer fired gun. When i got the 9MM, we had a choice of the S&W, SIG, and Glock. I recall very clearly the range officer instructing "those without a Glock, thumb on the hammer and holster" when we were going to holster. The maneuver became automatic. With your thumb on the back of the hammer, you cannot fire the gun accidentally, even if you try.

Nobody gets in their car and says 'OK. Now I have to press the brake before shifting into drive" because we do it all the time. No different with a gun. Only problem is that many people buy a Glock because they perceive they don't have to train with it. Nothing could be further from the truth.
 
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