How to spot a C&R S&W?

[majspud]

Hello Folks. New member here. I'm Strictly a C&R collector, with an historical collection from 1812-1945. I currently have two S/W: a 5/1918 M17 DA .45acp reparked veteran of both World Wars, and a Victory Revolver sent to Mare Island, CA, on 7/9/1943.

I carried a S/W 66 when I was a Refuge officer for the Fish and Wildlife Service 25 years ago and have a soft spot for them. I have also owned two 19-3 Combat Magnums.

I am looking for a C/R snub nose in .38 special, and found this one with SN C7174X. (1) Is it a C/R, and (2) how would I be able to know in the future?

Tim

 

[majspud]

Looks like Kevin1979's post answers my question; C- is 1961.

T

 

[Richard Simmons]

As I understand it anything older than 50 years or actually listed on the ATF list qualifies but you need a factory letter showing ship date as a firearm may fall into a serial number range that puts it at 50+ but it may have actually shipped years later. The date it leaves the factory is the birth date according to ATF or so I've read.

 

[H Richard]

Yes, 50 years since being shipped from the factory will make it a C&R qualified. Trying to determine the dates isn't always easy. The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson can be of a great help. Often you might have to get a letter. I recently obtained a S&W Mod. 39 but which shipped in 1964, so it is a C&R eligible and it did ship directly to my house.

 

[cgt4570]

It's easy if it's a 5-screw gun or a pre-model number gun. They are all more than 50 years old now. If you are a member of the S&W collector's association, you can ask Roy when it shipped. Otherwise you can come pretty close (beyond a reasonable doubt?) by using the SCSW 3 or 4 edition for the early model number dashes.

 

[les.b]

Well, that sure looks a lot like mine, which is Serial C546XX, and shipped in 1949:



Yours is a little newer, but since mine is 67 years old, I would be pretty sure that yours would be at least 50!!!

I don't know how accurate your photo is, but it looks like a bit is missing off of the hammer spur.

Best Regards, Les

 

[Absalom]

Looks like Kevin1979's post answers my question; C- is 1961.

T

Nope. A K-frame snubbie with the serial C-7174x would actually be from mid-1949, so I think you're well clear on the C&R.

PS: Like Les said ...

 

[glowe]

While this reply does not address all C&R Smith & Wesson revolvers, it is foolproof for most. An easy way to tell if you are seeing a C&R is to look for guns with a half-moon front sight. Only exception is that target models have target style front sights. Second, open the cylinder and look for a model ID stamp on the frame. If there is no. Model number, the S&W you are looking at is at least 58 years old. Lastly, if a gun has a 4 line address on the right side of the frame under the cylinder, it is made 1948 or later. Early examples have no stamping, while guns from 1921 to 1948 have a single line MADE IN USA. Hope this helps some.

 

[les.b]

Sorry, I forgot my manners!!!

Welcome to the forum!!! From West Virginia!!

As you can already see, there are a bunch of friendly folks ready to help each other out whenever they can.

Best Regards, Les

 

[merl67]

The only kicker to the whole C&R licence is that not all gun dealers will recognize them. I also had a guy refuse to sell me Trapdoor Springfield as a antique because it fired ammunition that was still available (45-70). Something to keep in mind.

 

[TTSH]

Well, that sure looks a lot like mine, which is Serial C546XX, and shipped in 1949.

Nope. A K-frame snubbie with the serial C-7174x would actually be from mid-1949, so I think you're well clear on the C&R.

PS: Like Les said ...

Correct and correct... ... same as I answered the OP in his other thread around noon.

 

[majspud]

Thanks for all the help. Yes, it looks like a little of the hammer spur is missing. Cut to avoid catching on clothes?

Dealer wants $695 - too much?

T

 

[Sol-Invictus]

Yes $695 is too much.

 

[DocB]

Yup, what Merl said. I've had dealers log in "antique" guns just to be on the safe side with ATF. Rather stupid and a real pain when you have to fill out all the paperwork on a gun that shipped in 1880.

 

[Kenny D]

Yes $695 is a little high for my neighborhood, central SC, but snubbies are hard to find around here. Usually asking $450 to $575 as to condition. They seem to sell real fast as I have been looking for one with no luck so far.

 

[DWalt]

SN C7174X would indeed have likely shipped around August 1949, so it is indisputable it was manufactured over 50 years ago and is therefore a C&R. And I also agree $695 is far too rich a price for me to have any interest in it.

 

[majspud]

OK, here's another one I found. Half moon front sight, check. One line address on side, check. So Pre-48? There was no picture of the inside of the crane. Matched serial number 969486 on butt, under barrel, cylinder, and grips.

T

 

[Engine49guy]

That one has the older style "Long action" and one line MADE IN USA frame address, probably a 1946 gun IMO.

PS we Smith Nuts use the term "Yoke" instead of crane

Looks like a nice gun

PS, the serial on that one would begin with the letter "S"

 

[majspud]

Unless its inside the Yoke, there is no "S". Asking $695.

T

 

[Göring's S&W]

The letter prefix on the butt is often substantially to the left of the numerals...

If the picture of the K frame snubnose in post #1 is the same gun in your last post, #19, the hammer spur has either broken off, or has been altered. If the hammer is original to the gun, a letter is certainly missing from the serial number, since the hammer is a short action hammer which indicates post war production for this model.

 

[Engine49guy]

S&W didnt stamp the S on the cylinder face or in side the stocks,

The S is likely to the far left on the heel and the owner didnt think to include it but its there.
Pre war guns had no S prefix but IMO that is an early post war example by the stocks and serial range.

 

[majspud]

The letter prefix on the butt is often substantially to the left of the numerals...

If the picture of the K frame snubnose in post #1 is the same gun in your last post, #19, the hammer spur has either broken off, or has been altered. If the hammer is original to the gun, a letter is certainly missing from the serial number, since the hammer is a short action hammer which indicates post war production for this model.

Different gun. This one is on GunBroker now; I presumed I can't post a live auction. I just asked the seller about the yoke stamp and perhaps a "S" on the heel. $695 too much?

T

 

[Göring's S&W]

If not an S, it should have a C on the butt...

 

[MtCamper]

It looks like this thread got a bit hijacked. Getting back to the original question: I'm no expert but I think BATFE uses manufacture date, not ship date. Smith only has records of the ship date so any ship date of 50 years qualifies. All the pre model guns qualify for sure and I'm thinking all flat latches qualify as of this year. Lots of other guns qualify too, even if manufactured recently if they more interest as a collector than as a shooter. There is a BATFE list but it is NOT exclusive. Basically it's up to the seller to determine if the gun qualifies and to prove it to BATFE is asked. I recommend not dealing with Class 01 FFLs who refuse to ship a C&R qualified gun to a C&R holder.

 

[cmansguns]

I find it hit or miss dealing with 01 FFL's and my 03 C & R FFL.

Some local LGS 01 will actually give a small discount when dealing with me and my C&R....reason I guess is that both parties are confident of no trouble with BATFE, both keep decent logs (or at least they know I do).

Some give no up front discount, but are more receptive to negotiation because the paperwork does seem around here at least to clear in very few minutes with a C&R, thus quicker out the door sales, especially with C&R guns that are usually "overpriced" to account for Internet selling fees, shipping 01 to 01, out-of-state laws, insurance fees, shipping costs, etc.

I agree that out-of-State 01 sellers that will not ship direct to me do not get my business and I have spoke directly with a couple but no valid reason ever mentioned...so no sale.

An 01 FFL receiving address, phone and place of business can be checked just as easily as a C&R, address, phone and validity if one desires, and I agree that my signature on a copy of my C&R can be faked just as easily as another 01 signature so I just don't see it, other than they don't want to negotiate which is OK with me....there are too many other guns out there.

 

[glowe]

I agree with you on most of your comments Charlie. I am probably more aggressive than most people. The law is on your side, so when I see something I want online, I bid on it unless specific language is posted that states they do not accept 03-FFLs. If I win the auction, I simply send my FFL and payment and wait for a reply. 95% of the auction houses do not even comment on my FFL, 4% respond to ask how I know the gun is over 50 years old. I reply with ship dates and often add how to identify that the firearm is a C&R by appearance alone, and the gun is shipped. I have had auction houses thank me for the tips and ask for more ways to ID a C&R.

The last 1% refuse and I do not pay. They may threaten me that I will not be able to bid on their future auctions, but they are already on my do not bid list. Even a few of them will reluctantly agree to send the gun rather than lose the sale.

 

[Bmlove]

I apologize but can you tell me what C&R means. Feel really dumb.

 

[Sawfish]

I apologize but can you tell me what C&R means. Feel really dumb.

Curio and Relic. No need to feel dumb. Better to ask than remain perplexed.

 

[Tjsuchy7]

C&R meaning

No problem. C&R stands for "Curio and Relic". Firearms in this class are at least 50 years old and are known for their collector or historic significance. If you do a google search on it you can find a lot more info on it, including how to get a C&R license.

 

[Tjsuchy7]

Above is a picture of my model of 1905 M&P 3rd change which I picked up at a local auction using my C&R license. It has a 6.5" barrel left over from 2nd change run, which makes it a little unique.