How would you have handeled this "almost" incident?

[feralmerril]

This took place almost 50 years ago to my closest friend. Like many incidents it was over a woman. My pal was working back east and met a few bad charactors. The main BG was supposedly somehow hooked up with the local mafia. Somehow my pal stold the BG`s girlfriend. Soon he got some bad threats through common aquantances. He knew he would shortly be visited by the BG and possible friends. He set up his small cheap upstairs apartment by putting a pump shotgun behind a open closet door. He also had a revolver that the BG knew he had which he unloaded and set on top a dresser. He was in the john and heard something in the apartment. He came out to find the BG and his pal in the apartment in their stocking feet. They had carded their way in and both had 24 ounce coke bottels in their hands to work over my buddy with. My buddy thought his best tatic would be to insult the intruders to a point where one of them would make a try for the unloaded revolver in plain sight, giveing him a good excuse to grab his shotgun behind the open closet door that he had manuvered himself close to. He came on strong to them and to his utter amazement both backed down and after a short discussion both left him unharmed.
I am sure had my pal not had the hidden shotgun and the empty revolver on his dresser he might not have had the nerve to come on strong and the results would have been bad for all concerned.
The moral is just haveing the shotgun handy saved his butt and the BGs never knew how close to death they were.
Lets say there would have been a shooting. What would have legaly happened to my pal?

 

[GKC]

It would depend on the state law, and since that was 50 years ago, laws have changed considerably since then. If you are asking what would have happened now, then it would still depend on state law. What state was this in?

In Texas, we have the castle doctrine, so a home owner has no duty to retreat in his home. Even though the bad guys were armed with Coca-colas (which can be a crime in NY) the home owner could be reasonably in fear for his life, since there were two of them and they were menacing him. If they tried to grab his revolver, then it could be argued that they intended to use deadly force...a counter argument could be made that the homeowner knew the gun was unloaded, so it wasn't going to be able to be used against him, but in Texas, I don't think that would be a problem, because of the castle doctrine.

 

[feralmerril]

It was west virginnia.

 

[Comrad]

Youse got wise guys in WV?

 

[feralmerril]

They did in 1964 parkersburg.

 

[Wingmaster]

I assume "carding" their way in is the same as breaking in. Where I come from, if someone breaks into your house you are justified in believing they are there to do harm to you.
That justifies a person to defend themselves using deadly force.

That is what I was told by a lawyer friend that is also a state legislator.

Wingmaster

 

[old curmudgeon]

NC law is strange.

If they guys are breaking in, you can shoot them.

If they are already in, you have to determine what their intentions are...

That was before the castle law.

I don't think the castle law changes that.

CCW law and self defense law in NC is a tangled web.

 

[MaximumLawman]

Lets say there would have been a shooting. What would have legaly happened to my pal?

He would have loaded the pistol after he shot the guy, or lied and said he didn't know it was unloaded and nothing further with the police or prosecutor would happen. Then the buddies of the guy he killed would have eventually found him and killed him, if they were actual bad guys and not just some sort of posers.

 

[Lost Lake]

It sounds like premeditated murder to me.

Setting a prop gun on the table, hiding the shotgun and waiting for the guys to grab the unloaded weapon so he could kill them? Premeditated.

 

[feralmerril]

I asked him about that. His thinking was that if it worked out that way he would rather have them go for the revolver than be beaten to death with the heavy coke bottels. He said he would have pulled the shotgun and they probley would have begged and fled. He at one time was casual friends with them and had heard of some rough things they claimed to have done prior. He couldnt and wouldnt have pulled stakes and ran off right then and positively knew they would try something soon. They also knew the layout as they had both visited him in the apartment prior.
Bottom line it worked out for him but wouldnt have had he not had the confidence of the hidden shotgun to ACT as he did. What I am saying here, just haveing a gun handy, knowing how to use it will give you the needed demeaner to defuse a event from happening. Isnt all law enforcement really armed to keep a incident from happening?
Thats the whole point why I started this thread. To illistrate the reason to have a gun. It will give a person the demeaner and confidence to stop incidents from killings. By the way, if you havent guessed by now, I am my best friend.

 

[jasserv]

^ so what ever happened to the girl?

 

[feralmerril]

Shirley followed me to my next job near my home in wisconsin. She was a beautiful young widow with a 3 year old fine son. She wouldnt behave herself and I tried to send her back to west virginnia. She refused to leave. I put her up in a apartment, stocked her, her son and another GF of hers in similar straights up in groceries. Once I had them moved in I yelled "You wont ever see me again as I left.
That didnt last though. About a month later I was driveing through that small town and see her walking. (I really was headed to see the landloard and pay him another month if she was still there) I pulled over and she laid it on me that the landlord had locked up her luggage thinking he wasnt going to get his rent, the red cross was comeing tomorrow to get son brian so she could find work and GF eileen had run off with a guy. I went and got her stuff after a fight with the landlord, loaded her and brian up in my car and took them to my folks house. My folks were bible thumpers and mom was up but dad was in bed. The next morning as he was leaveing for work he called me down and had his bible in his hand. He told me what the bible had to say about my shennagians. She better not be here when I get home tonight! By that time shirley got next to my mother. I had a contract about 75 miles away and was gone for the week. Mom took off from her job trying to find a job for shirley. A few days of that and pa told mom either she leaves or you do! Finaly mom got ahold of her mom and finaly got here agree to let her come home.
Mom was to put her on the train but shirley locked herself "accidently" in the house while mom was putting her luggage in the car. They were late to the depot but the train was late too!
My job took me to california. I quit the job and got a job working security for universal movie studios. I met brian keith and casualy mentioned the story that her sons name was also brian keith. The next day he brought in a nice autographed picture of himself and the dog, "Old yeller" and told me to mail it to the boy. I did along with some fired blank ammo I found by a horse trough on the lot. Didnt put a return adress though. A few years later I was on a flight from chicago and met a merchant seaman that also was from parkersberg. That left to swapping storys and we found we both had dated shirley. When we got off the plane we both were drunk as lords. That didnt go so good with the GF that was there to pick me up!

 

[Lost Lake]

A gun making someone bold enough to act brassy and tough which results in the other guy backing down? Or does it cause the other guy to escalate his aggression?

Glad it worked out in your case, but it probably isn't a good rule of thumb to follow.

You have some fantastic stories to tell though... You sure aren't a boring guy!!!!

 

[crofoot629]

Should have taken his loaded revolver to the John with him.

Emory

 

[Sprefix]

I like having the brains to deal with situations, but the idea of an "equalizer" is very comforting also. When or if I have an equalizer handy is only MY business. I don't need to strut around like a western hero making a statement for the world to see....Other than this post!! LOL

 

[805moparkid]

It would depend on the state law, and since that was 50 years ago, laws have changed considerably since then. If you are asking what would have happened now, then it would still depend on state law. What state was this in?

In Texas, we have the castle doctrine, so a home owner has no duty to retreat in his home. Even though the bad guys were armed with Coca-colas (which can be a crime in NY) the home owner could be reasonably in fear for his life, since there were two of them and they were menacing him. If they tried to grab his revolver, then it could be argued that they intended to use deadly force...a counter argument could be made that the homeowner knew the gun was unloaded, so it wasn't going to be able to be used against him, but in Texas, I don't think that would be a problem, because of the castle doctrine.

unloaded or not i think it shows intent. which is what is big to have on your side...

 

[feralmerril]

Thanks. But once again, I claim one of the foremost reasons a LEO is armed is to stop trouble before it starts. On my humble security jobs I OCed over 35 years. I think I had more touchy incidents off the job than on. I found out in my early life its more about demeaner than anything else. Just haveing the means to defend yourself without showing it will give you the confidence that most BGs can smell. Although I did get boisterous in that incident , I have been in a few others where I acted friendly and humble but I know for a fact I would have got eaten up had I not shown quiet confidence. I worked with some guys that were in constant trouble because of a rotten demeaner. In that story prior to the incident of them breaking in my apartment, the GF and I were comeing out of my apartment and surprised the same two guys stakeing out my place and they scratched out. The guy with him had worked for me and I had to fire him a few days before that. That same night they had staked me out I later was able to stop the guy with him that I had fired, on the road and shook him up. I positively knew they would be comeing. What do you run to the police with? Thats why I set it up that way.

 

[MaximumLawman]

Didnt put a return adress though. A few years later I was on a flight from chicago and met a merchant seaman that also was from parkersberg. That left to swapping storys and we found we both had dated shirley.

Are you sure her name wasn't "Brandy"?

 

[feralmerril]

Names usualy are changed to protect the guilty, however her name was really shirley. At least thats what she had told me. Her last name WASNT keith. It so happened that was the boys middle name.
She was beautiful and wild. Reminds me of another old tough guy I knew. He was always telling me wild tales of old girl friends and events. Frankly, he was almost the same size, (300 #s) age, ( almost 72) and ugly as me. One night I said george, its hard for me to picture you with all those past wild girl friends ya had. All the old women I see now are queit, and religious. Where did they go?
George said, "Hell yes! When they get fat and old and ugly, then they get religion!"

 

[Neumann]

It sounds like premeditated murder to me.

Setting a prop gun on the table, hiding the shotgun and waiting for the guys to grab the unloaded weapon so he could kill them? Premeditated.

It's 2am, you awaken to the sound of breaking glass and take your shotgun toward the source of the sound.

You armed yourself without knowing of a specific threat. Premeditated, or simply prepared?

50 years ago, blood anywhere inside the house from a non-relative was evidence of self-defense.