I thought the .40 caliber was dead?

[Farmer17]

When the .40 first came out I bought one, an EAA Witness which was at the time, a slightly slimmer copy of a CZ 75. It was wonderfully accurate and the perfect self defense gun to me for over 20 years and it had very manageable recoil. I heard others saying the .40 was too snappy and I had no idea what they were talking about and then one day I fired my buddies new Walther P-99 .40. After every shot there was so much muzzle flip the barrel was pointing straight up at the sky and I never had that issue even shooting my .44 Magnum! Some manufacturers apparently just re-chambered their 9m/m pistols to the MUCH more powerful .40 without changing the recoil springs or locking system dynamics.

 

[Dvus]

I've been a .40 fan since it's introduction, and my .40s don't recoil any more than a 9mm in the same model guns. My 40s are in a 1911, an EAA Witness (my favorite) and a 2011 that feels like shooting a .32. I've had others, but these will always be with me. Where the .40 really shines is when you load your own. It can be brought up to near 10mm level without much effort, and any 9mm pipsqueak calling the .40 "short and weak" will quickly change his tune to "STOUT and WICKED."

 

[sigp220.45]

I love the .40. I got a Glock 27 when they first came out and carried as a second or off duty gun til I retired and gave it to my son. I never had a thought about the "snappy" recoil until I started reading about it on the internet. Some of you guys kill me!

Its either the ".40 Short and Weak" or it kicks too hard! It is the ballistic twin (.40/180/950) of the venerable .38/40 which had the reputation of "shooting hard" but kicking less than the .45 Colt or .44/40. But what did those guys know?

I worked a lot of police shootings with the .40 and it worked great! I had one where a female tribal cop shot a big fat boy through the windshield of his car, took a chunk from the steering wheel, and that 180 bonded came back from OMI looking like a magazine ad for the perfect bullet mushroom. She handled that Glock 22 like a champ - it apparently never occurred to her to be intimidated by its snappish behavior.

Though I gave away my fire-breathing wrist-breaking but somehow underpowered baby Glock, I still have a Glock 22, a Beretta 96, and one of the elusive S&W 646 revolvers. Now is the golden age of .40 trade-ins and I'm sure I'll pick up a Sig or 2 before my substantial stash of .40s is depleted.

 

[biku324]

H&K USPs are around also...

 

[WardenRoss]

One good thing about the .40......


When all my bud's departments switched back to 9mm, before I retired, circa 2015 or so.....I kept my Glock 23.

"Hey, need some .40's? Here, take mine, I won't need them anymore."

Those guys would hand over their old .40's ammo to me. So, I have, like....a lifetime supply of all kinds of .40's.

 

[Well Armed]

When the .40 first came out I bought one, an EAA Witness which was at the time, a slightly slimmer copy of a CZ 75. It was wonderfully accurate and the perfect self defense gun to me for over 20 years and it had very manageable recoil. I heard others saying the .40 was too snappy and I had no idea what they were talking about and then one day I fired my buddies new Walther P-99 .40. After every shot there was so much muzzle flip the barrel was pointing straight up at the sky and I never had that issue even shooting my .44 Magnum! Some manufacturers apparently just re-chambered their 9m/m pistols to the MUCH more powerful .40 without changing the recoil springs or locking system dynamics.

Did you fire the same ammo through it too? To add to what you mentioned, different 40s&w ammunition will have different recoil impulse, velocities, and muzzle energies. A lot of people try one or two particular 40s&w offerings out of one or two typically lightweight pistols, and then will come to a general conclusion about ALL 40s&w loads out of ALL 40s&w pistols. 40s&w ammo and pistols are NOT monolithic. Just like a Springfield Hellcat might be snappy and a M&P Shield or P365 might be softer shooting with the same 9mm ammo, the same is true with different 40s&w platforms. Another example is that my hand would start to hurt when shooting my friend's XDS 45, but I can shoot my Shield 45 without a problem.


Popular Federal 9mm JHP ammo:

Popular Winchester 40s&w JHP ammo:

As we see here, one of the most popular 9mm rounds used for self-defense has more velocity AND more muzzle energy than some popular 40s&w offerings. Add to this that most 40s&w pistols designed for 40s&w are slightly healthier than their 9mm equivalents, so that should future reduce felt recoil. Even still, everyone would claim that the 40s&w was soooo much much snappy and harder to get follow up shots. This why I say a lot of the perception about 40s&w is rooted in what gun owners have been told to believe rather than reality.

The another reason why 40s&w is objectively better than 9mm and should be more popular and less hated is that it 40s&w platforms can often be 3 firearms in one which is something 9mm and 45acp can not do. Often with just the change of the barrel and maybe the magazine, you can shoot 9mm or 357 sig out of a 40s&w platform.

 

[Well Armed]

Well, I didn't say any of that, but since I evidently triggered you - I'm glad you "got it straight".

I quoted you because you brought up the topic, but I prefaced my post with I was talking in general terms. It wasn't directed at you specifically and I knowcI brought things up that you never claimed or stated.

Other than that, I wish you were closer because I'd think it would be a fun challenge.

 

[KarmannGhia]

Not dead, just not young and attractive anymore. Can't remember when I got the first one (Sig 229). Liked it, still do. Got my second one when my Dept switched from Beretta 92G to M&P 40. I purchased it when we switched to G17 a couple of years later. Found a S&W Mod 646. That one hurts. I figured I'd round out the collection with a Beretta Storm carbine in 40. I'm not getting rid of my 40s, but they are not replacing my 9s either. If I was trying to limit my calibers, I would skip the 40, but I'm happy with a little bit of everything.

 

[AlHunt]

Try this one: Magnum Research .429 Desert Eagle (DE) - Guns and Ammo My little Sister has one and thinks it is a hoot to shoot. Ammo pricey at about $60 a box of 20. This is a 50AE necked down to 44.

Very nice. I'd be more thrilled if it were sa/da. $2K is a little zesty but it should be cheaply reloadable.

Great Zombie Apocalypse gun.

 

[Sevens]

Often times for me it's much more about the platform than it is about the cartridge.

 

[Birdhunter6]

The .40 was my primary round for 10 years. I still have a pistol and carbine in the caliber. Modern bullet design has improved the 9mms performance. This isn't just 9s. We now have projectiles that perform correctly at short barrel velocities in all calibers.

LE agencies aren't fleeing the .40 because there is anything wrong with it. They just have access to better ammo for the 9 with less recoil. That equates to better bullet placement and more hits on target faster. (Also easier to train new shooters with.)

I am NOT recoil sensitive. I learned to shoot with .357s & .41s. These days I load modern ammo and carry .38s and 9s with confidence.

 

[Well Armed]

The .40 was my primary round for 10 years. I still have a pistol and carbine in the caliber. Modern bullet design has improved the 9mms performance. This isn't just 9s. We now have projectiles that perform correctly at short barrel velocities in all calibers.

LE agencies aren't fleeing the .40 because there is anything wrong with it. They just have access to better ammo for the 9 with less recoil. That equates to better bullet placement and more hits on target faster. (Also easier to train new shooters with.)

I am NOT recoil sensitive. I learned to shoot with .357s & .41s. These days I load modern ammo and carry .38s and 9s with confidence.

It has nothing to do with recoil or bullet placement. Both can be achieved with both 9mm and 40s&w. It's about the bottom line. Period. It's why most issue Glocks over the hundreds of other great options on the market. It's why the military went with the P320. It's why the majority buy 9mm and 22lr in handgun ammo and why .223/5.56 and 7.62x39 rifles have been the most popular. They all meet the minimum standard at the lowest price point. It's not about which is the best caliber or platform, but rather which is good enough and the cheapest.

 

[Furrball]

The .40 is not dead. I perfer a Colt .45 auto. Like everything there are choices to be made. I like the .40 because I can carry more rounds then the .45. It has more mass then a 9mm. The same technology that improves the 9mm performance also improves the performance of the.40.

 

[Echo40]

The same technology that improves the 9mm performance also improves the .40.

A common misconception, the "technology" that improved 9mm was a simple redesign of 9mm JHPs to enable the cartridge to meet FBI Specifications by penetrating deeper.

.40 S&W already met FBI Specifications by default because it was designed from the beginning to meet those specifications, ergo no improvements were necessary and if those same improvements were applied to .40 S&W then the cartridge would exceed FBI Specifications, thereby rendering it a failure because the additional penetration would be a liability.

 

[LVSteve]

Did you fire the same ammo through it too? To add to what you mentioned, different 40s&w ammunition will have different recoil impulse, velocities, and muzzle energies. A lot of people try one or two particular 40s&w offerings out of one or two typically lightweight pistols, and then will come to a general conclusion about ALL 40s&w loads out of ALL 40s&w pistols. 40s&w ammo and pistols are NOT monolithic. Just like a Springfield Hellcat might be snappy and a M&P Shield or P365 might be softer shooting with the same 9mm ammo, the same is true with different 40s&w platforms. Another example is that my hand would start to hurt when shooting my friend's XDS 45, but I can shoot my Shield 45 without a problem.


Popular Federal 9mm JHP ammo:

Popular Winchester 40s&w JHP ammo:

As we see here, one of the most popular 9mm rounds used for self-defense has more velocity AND more muzzle energy than some popular 40s&w offerings. Add to this that most 40s&w pistols designed for 40s&w are slightly healthier than their 9mm equivalents, so that should future reduce felt recoil. Even still, everyone would claim that the 40s&w was soooo much much snappy and harder to get follow up shots. This why I say a lot of the perception about 40s&w is rooted in what gun owners have been told to believe rather than reality.

The another reason why 40s&w is objectively better than 9mm and should be more popular and less hated is that it 40s&w platforms can often be 3 firearms in one which is something 9mm and 45acp can not do. Often with just the change of the barrel and maybe the magazine, you can shoot 9mm or 357 sig out of a 40s&w platform.

I consider 180 gr "heavy for caliber" in 40 S&W. It's like 147 gr in 9 mm. I feel that would be a more fair comparison. I shot 155 gr and 135 gr from my buddy's G23, and found both a bit punchy. One of those loads left me with a zinging hand, but I cannot remember which. I do recall it was damned loud, suggesting a lot of muzzle blast and maybe supersonic velocity at Vegas altitude.

 

[Modified]

Bad cartridges live forever.

It's only the good that die young.

RIP .45 GAP.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

40 S&W was introduced by S&W on Jan.17th 1990...I so I guess I got my 4006 in early 1990. Guy had 2 on his table and ONE BOX of Win. hollow point with each pistol. I bought the adjustable sighted one.....He WOULD NOt sell the other box of ammo.........NONE was to be found as only Winchester was making it at the time......I made my cases form cut down and inside neck reamed 10mm brass......And they worked fine for a long time till others started making 40 S&W ammo.

 

[Furrball]

My perfered .40 Caliber Round, the Federal 180 grain HST.
I also have a few boxes of the HST+P
That's 180 grains, expanding to 3/4 of an inch wide, with 19 inches of penetration.
408 Foot Pounds of Energy at the Muzzle.
That is more energy on the target than the 9mm with a wider expansion.

 

[Brian Parrish]

So Cool Comment!

40 S&W was introduced by S&W on Jan.17th 1990...I so I guess I got my 4006 in early 1990. Guy had 2 on his table and ONE BOX of Win. hollow point with each pistol. I bought the adjustable sighted one.....He WOULD NOt sell the other box of ammo.........NONE was to be found as only Winchester was making it at the time......I made my cases form cut down and inside neck reamed 10mm brass......And they worked fine for a long time till others started making 40 S&W ammo.

Please if you could answer these questions?
Is there any truth to the claim that the 180-grain bullet is too large for the case? I saw a chart showing that pressures go up drastically as the bullet is seated slightly deeper in the case even from a few re-chamberings of an individual round. Some shooters refuse to chamber a round twice. Some shooters are double checking, measuring case OAL every time they chamber that +1 round.
Is there truth to the claim that 180-grain factory ammo is being loaded to lower pressures than 165-grain ammo as a safety margin because of this seating depth criticality?
Is it true that the 1:16 twist rate is inadequate to stabilize the 180-grain bullet but adequate to stabilize the 165-grain bullet? There is a 1:14 twist match grade barrel available from Nowlin for the 1911 platform (requires fitting).

So, I have a CS40 which is wonderful with Hornady SubSonic 180 gr. bullets. It works great so end of search. But I wonder because I have a Model 411 which cannot shoot any 180-grain round accurately but can put every 165-grain bullet in the x-ring. Okay fine I have got plenty of those so I will keep using this tool this way no problem. But I still wonder why...

Thanks for any insights.

Kind Regards!
BrianD

 

[biku324]

The stories about 180 grain bullets are exactly that - stories. We fired tens of thousands of 180 grain 40 S&W with no such issue.

 

[charlie sherrill]

40 cal is less popular because of several things. The FBI is pushing the 9 MM for several reasons. The ammo cost less than the others. Availability is better. The military uses 9 MM. 9 MM has improved specs from years ago. People with smaller hands can shoot them better. (use your imagination here) And they aren't as menacing as the higher caliber rounds. Usually whatever the FBI says is the thing to do most major PD's do the same. When we transitioned from revolvers to bottom feeders we were issued the Glock 17. We had issues with that round (without the new and improved bullets) and moved on to the Glock 22. We shot folks with nines who shot back at us. Not so much with the 40. I know, shot placement is king. I'm retired now but mostly carry a full sized 40, my retirement pistol with my name, badge, and department engraved on it. I've been a life long deer hunter and have taken three with a Glock 22, more than that with a 10 MM. That impressed me. I've wounded a couple with a Glock 17 and a M&P 9 and they ran off. Maybe it wasn't my day. The criminal element seem to prefer the 40 with 25+ round mags maybe because there are so many cheap ones out there right now. They mostly don't use holsters and carry them in their crotch. There's been some interesting happenings with this. Thankfully some of them can't tell a cheap mag from a good one. Bottom line is I feel protected with either caliber, but prefer the 40 (180) just a little more.

 

[rwsmith]

I shot my sister's Llama.....

......Seriously, my Walther PPK/S and Ruger LCP chambered in .380 ACP are more snappy than any pistol I've ever fired chambered in .40 S&W, including an M&P40 Shield. ......

....it's a very THIN gun and that little sucker HURT to shoot. Very unpleasant indeed.

 

[rwsmith]

After seeing how much Autumn....

...on 'Autumns Armory' gets a kick out of shooting her 10mm, I think I want one. That's one cool S&W 3rd gen she's got.

 

[Glenn R. McMannly]

I'm a .45 ACP man myself.

With guns such as the FNX-45 and Glock 21 holding a large capacity there's not much I don't like. Not that I feel I need it, I feel JUST FINE with my 1911s.

Those stories of .45 hardball effectiveness didn't come from thin air. And yes the 9mm has advanced a lot with modern bullet tech. But that same exact tech has also been applied to .45...

 

[Chuck Edwards]

Please if you could answer these questions?
Is there any truth to the claim that the 180-grain bullet is too large for the case? I saw a chart showing that pressures go up drastically as the bullet is seated slightly deeper in the case even from a few re-chamberings of an individual round. Some shooters refuse to chamber a round twice. Some shooters are double checking, measuring case OAL every time they chamber that +1 round.
Is there truth to the claim that 180-grain factory ammo is being loaded to lower pressures than 165-grain ammo as a safety margin because of this seating depth criticality?
Is it true that the 1:16 twist rate is inadequate to stabilize the 180-grain bullet but adequate to stabilize the 165-grain bullet? There is a 1:14 twist match grade barrel available from Nowlin for the 1911 platform (requires fitting).

So, I have a CS40 which is wonderful with Hornady SubSonic 180 gr. bullets. It works great so end of search. But I wonder because I have a Model 411 which cannot shoot any 180-grain round accurately but can put every 165-grain bullet in the x-ring. Okay fine I have got plenty of those so I will keep using this tool this way no problem. But I still wonder why...

Thanks for any insights.

Kind Regards!
BrianD

Brian - Bullet setback can be an issue. .40 S&W is a high-pressure cartridge...and so is 9x19, and the pressures go up with it too. I'll re-chamber that round once or twice, but after that, it gets shot. I keep several 50-round boxes of my carry ammo (HST), so it's no big deal and cheap insurance.

As to why your 411 doesn't shoot 180s well, I guess it's just persnickety.

FWIW, there are two velocity levels with the 165s - one is full power, the other is a slightly reduced load for reduced recoil. There's just one level that I know of for the 180s.

 

[Yendor357]

So our beloved government shot some denim and gel, slapped a fresh coat of paint on the 9MM, and suddenly declares the 9MM as THE round to be carrying. Yeah, I don't know. My little sister is a CPA for a corporation. She always says with a smile: "What number do you want?"

Personally, I put a whole lot more faith in what our Friend Charlie has said.
You can test, and theorize all you want, I'll never disagree with someone with real world experience.

 

[Furrball]

Please if you could answer these questions?
Is there any truth to the claim that the 180-grain bullet is too large for the case? I saw a chart showing that pressures go up drastically as the bullet is seated slightly deeper in the case even from a few re-chamberings of an individual round. Some shooters refuse to chamber a round twice. Some shooters are double checking, measuring case OAL every time they chamber that +1 round.
Is there truth to the claim that 180-grain factory ammo is being loaded to lower pressures than 165-grain ammo as a safety margin because of this seating depth criticality?
Is it true that the 1:16 twist rate is inadequate to stabilize the 180-grain bullet but adequate to stabilize the 165-grain bullet? There is a 1:14 twist match grade barrel available from Nowlin for the 1911 platform (requires fitting).

So, I have a CS40 which is wonderful with Hornady SubSonic 180 gr. bullets. It works great so end of search. But I wonder because I have a Model 411 which cannot shoot any 180-grain round accurately but can put every 165-grain bullet in the x-ring. Okay fine I have got plenty of those so I will keep using this tool this way no problem. But I still wonder why...

Thanks for any insights.

Kind Regards!
BrianD

Some guns are picky on ammunition. It is not unusual. Different bullet weights and velocity will make differences in point of impact.
Find the ammo your gun likes.
All I can tell you is I have fired thousands of 180 grain bullets and other weights as well, made by many different manufacturers, out of Glock 22's and Glock 27's for over two Decades. I will shoot most anything practicing and different weights and manufacturers generally make litte practical difference unless you are competition shooting. I like Federal Defensive Ammunition.
I have Never in all that time had a jam or failure to fire. Ever.
As to accuracy, a quarter inch here or there due to different ammunition or bullet weights should not matter in practical, center of mass aiming inside of 25 yards.
If you can't put most of your shots into an 8 inch paper plate at 15 yards, shooting at a brisk pace you need to get yourself a quality gun and some decent ammo and Practice with it.
The .40 is not for everyone. My wife shoots it well.



Sorry no interwebz charts.

 

[Well Armed]

I consider 180 gr "heavy for caliber" in 40 S&W. It's like 147 gr in 9 mm. I feel that would be a more fair comparison. I shot 155 gr and 135 gr from my buddy's G23, and found both a bit punchy. One of those loads left me with a zinging hand, but I cannot remember which. I do recall it was damned loud, suggesting a lot of muzzle blast and maybe supersonic velocity at Vegas altitude.

40s&w was developed from it's genesis to be. 180 gr and was typically issued to law enforcement and the FBI using 180 gr... Next, from the ballistic test I seen, the 135 and 155, 165 grain 40s&w is not performing better than 180 gr..

Also, I consider 180 40s&w to be the most popular and common for carry, and 124 gr 9mm to the most popular. The facts still remains, as I pointed out, that 40s&w is NOT monolithic. You can't just shoot one manufacturer's offering in one particular grains and design, and then factually proclaim that all 40s&w is snappy. As I pointed out, there are several popular 9mm offerings that have more or similar velocity and muzzle energy than several popular 40s&w offerings and vis versa. That's why I believe it's outright wrong and ignorant to make the blanketed claims (not that you did but in general).

 

[Well Armed]

I'm a .45 ACP man myself.

With guns such as the FNX-45 and Glock 21 holding a large capacity there's not much I don't like. Not that I feel I need it, I feel JUST FINE with my 1911s.

Those stories of .45 hardball effectiveness didn't come from thin air. And yes the 9mm has advanced a lot with modern bullet tech. But that same exact tech has also been applied to .45...

The issue with 45 acp that 9mm and 40s&w do not have is that the size and weight of the pistol is bigger, the capacity is lower, JHP do not perform well out of shorter barrels, and JHP doesn't penetrate and defeat barriers as well. 45acp only has a .2 of an inch advantage over 40s&w with only a few commercial offerings, and that's where the advantages end.

Several offerings of 180 gr 40s&w can reach .70" to .80" diameter, and only like 3 or so commercial offerings of 230 gr 45acp are reaching 1" of diameter. Majority of 45acp on the market isn't performing OR explanding better than 40s&w.

For a higher capacity home defense or truck gun, 45acp makes the most sense with at least a 4" barrel. For a carry gun where size, weight, and concealablity is a factor, 9mm and 40s&w has the advantage over 45acp IMHO. Both of the latter calibers come in smaller and lighter pistols, the rounds perform better and more reliablely out of smaller pistols, and you do not sacrifice capacity.

 

[forindooruseonly]

You guys need to stop defending the .40 Short and Weak... If they are undesirable and out of fashion, that means those of us who like the cartridge can buy them cheaper.