"I wouldn't sell you that gun"

[kbm6893]

Well, as an instructor, he had a duty to address the lack of a manual safety and the higher risk of a ND with a striker fire gun over hammer fired, BUT his comment that he wouldn't sell you that gun is moronic. A good saleman should make the buyer aware of the operation of whatever they buy. I have seen gun dealers push Glocks on obviously unskilled buyers. I'm talking about the ones who needed to know what direction the "clip goes in", and "why does the top part lock back when I pull it?". I once saw a guy walk out with a Mossberg 12 gauge after asking the saleman "where the clip goes" and "how many bullets does this thing hold?". Or ""Why can't I pump the handle again?" (he didn't know he had to pull the trigger or press the lever to allow the slide to cycle). I would never tell someone NOT to buy a gun. I WOULD (and have) told unskilled novices that Glocks should not be their first gun. XD's get a better grade from me due to the grip safety. I know several people who took the 8 hour course and ran out to buy a Glock that promptly gets loaded and left in the sock drawer.

 

[bkocik]

Originally posted by ocjimmy:
The Glock, MP, XD are not cocked when a round is in the chamber. Pressing the trigger pulls back the striker. At the completion of the trigger press, the striker is sprung forward and ignites the primer.

Just curious - do you happen to have a reference to some technical document (preferably from S&W) that confirms this? I ask because everything I'm reading indicates that in the M&P, pulling the trigger does nothing more than release the striker; it does not pull it back at all. For example:

http://www.genitron.com/Gblog/comments.asp?id=57

I'd love to know for sure if that's right or wrong. If what that guy says there is right, then the instructor was right - the M&P is cocked when there's a round in the chamber, and cannot be decocked except by pulling the trigger to release the striker.

-Bill

 

[OKFC05]

I was taking the class for purposes of applying for my CCW permit here in WV, but the actual name of the class is "Personal Protection in the Home".

I have my Lesson Plan for Personal Protection Inside the Home. Champter V says to spend 30 minutes in the course filling two objectives:
1. Identify the cirteria for selecting a handgun and ammunition suited to their individual self-defense needs.
2. Identify the major cartridge designs available...........

There is also a chapter in the student handbook on selecting a handgun.

It is strictly against NRA policy for any instructor to endorse a particular brand or promote his gun business while acting as a NRA instructor.

His behavior is worthy of a complaint to NRA training, not just posting here.

 

[OKFC05]

everything I'm reading indicates that in the M&P, pulling the trigger does nothing more than release the striker; it does not pull it back at all

As an IDPA match director, I have to know the technical ruling on various of the polymer pistol actions so I can put them into the right division at a match.

The Sigma, Glock, and M&P all have basically the same type action. It is neither single nor purely double action, but what is called "Safe Action." When the slide goes forward, the striker is caught by the sear and held back slightly, but not far enough to fire the gun if it slips. The trigger action completes the cocking of the striker and releases it, firing the gun. They are NOT fully cocked when at rest. Thus they are in SSP, with the true double actions, such as the Browning BDM.

The Springfield XD is an example of a FULLY cocked striker that is only released by the trigger, and is put in ESP with traditional single actions, such as the 1911.

I read the article in your link, and his description of the striker movement is accurate, but his insisting everything must be called single action if the striker is even slightly cocked is NOT consistent with competition organizations.
http://www.idpa.com/Documents/IDPARuleBook2005.pdf
(see pg 19)

 

[Opie]

The Sigma, Glock, and M&P all have basically the same type action. It is neither single nor purely double action, but what is called "Safe Action." When the slide goes forward, the striker is caught by the sear and held back slightly, but not far enough to fire the gun if it slips. The trigger action completes the cocking of the striker and releases it, firing the gun. They are NOT fully cocked when at rest.

I've read this many times, but I don't see it when looking at the MP. I have worked the trigger with the slide off. I only see the trigger bar move. It has a portion that disengages the firing pin block and another part that trips the sear. The sear looks like it moves back no more than .010" (probably less) due to the way it pivots. I don't see anything that retracts the striker any more than that.

 

[OKFC05]

Originally posted by Opie:

The Sigma, Glock, and M&P all have basically the same type action. It is neither single nor purely double action, but what is called "Safe Action." When the slide goes forward, the striker is caught by the sear and held back slightly, but not far enough to fire the gun if it slips. The trigger action completes the cocking of the striker and releases it, firing the gun. They are NOT fully cocked when at rest.

I've read this many times, but I don't see it when looking at the MP. I have worked the trigger with the slide off. I only see the trigger bar move. It has a portion that disengages the firing pin block and another part that trips the sear. The sear looks like it moves back no more than .010" (probably less) due to the way it pivots. I don't see anything that retracts the striker any more than that.

If you take the slide off, you can't see how the Glock or Sigma work, either.

 

[Hot Toddy]

Hey Folks!
I guess I'll weigh in on this subject from a different take.
I LOVE it when people tell me that S&W autos (ESP 10mm's) are especially worthless, dangerous or the best inaccurate.
They fall into a couple of catagories.
1. They have never shot one.
2. Fans of other brands ( Mine is better than yours and if you dont agree I am running home to Mama to tell on you!!

LOL!!)
3. Actually had a bad experience and never gave another S&W a chance.
4. All S&W are worthless due to metaluragy, cracked slides, etc and the factory rep told them so.
The answers....
1. Try it you wil like it. ( I did!!)
2. I cant keep from laughing at the individuals to come up with an answer and yes I tell them I am laughing at them. Also it depends on what Mama looks like. Hmmmm...

3. If the opportunity pops up, let them shoot yours, I have convinced more than one person.
4. Ask for names. I heard the same thing, but nobody fesses up. And no proof to back it up.
Last but not least, if they have a S&W offer to buy it at a reduced price to "Save" them from it. Funny I have never had anyone take me up on that one, even when I did offer a real good price ( $550 for a beater 1006 that was all of the above, however they wouldn't part with it. Sentimental???).
Hope this helps.
However the one thing I was told and wished I would have listened was if you buy one S&W, its like cats or peanuts. Just cant have just one!!LOL!!
Take care and God Bless...HT

 

[Opie]

Can someone post a picture of the part that retracts the striker to full cock? Or show an exploded parts diagram and indicate which part number does it?

 

[troutwest66]

I've shot the M&P40 and if I didn't carry a 1911 I would be carrying an M&P45. I agree that the striker is not fully cocked but "partially" which helps give it it's nice trigger. Our police department here in Post Falls, ID just got new M&P40s and traded in their S&W99s for them. Our school SRO loves his (I teach high school PE/ health) and he shot probably his best qualifying score the first time he shot it. I'm not a fan of the 9mm either but I wouldn't want to get hit by one either. I would state the reasons I prefer my caliber but I would let students know that with good defensive ammo the 9mm can and will protect them. Give the class the facts and good information and let them decide for themselves.

 

[38-44HD45]

Originally posted by Wyatt Earp:
Your instructor is an idiot.

Yep, Wyatt got it right again!!

 

[Stan9106]

Originally posted by ocjimmy:


The Glock, MP, XD are not cocked when a round is in the chamber. Pressing the trigger pulls back the striker.

I can't speak for the Glock or MP, but that incorrect regarding the XD. The striker on the XD is cocked by the cycling of the slide, not by pulling the trigger.

 

[tg_26101]

Originally posted by Karl in NY:

Originally posted by ocjimmy:
The Glock, MP, XD are not cocked when a round is in the chamber. Pressing the trigger pulls back the striker. At the completion of the trigger press, the striker is sprung forward and ignites the primer.

Actually, I have read that the Springfield XD actually does have a fully-cocked striker, unlike the Glock and M&P, hence the grip safety. Can someone clarify this?

you're correct - the striker is fully cocked on the XD. this is why they aren't included in the SSP class in IDPA - it's considered a single action.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Originally posted by bkocik:
This past Saturday I took an NRA CCW class. The instructor, who is also an FFL, noted that he would never sell anyone my gun (M&P 9c), because it's "too dangerous." His reason is that it cannot be de-cocked with a round in the chamber.

Yeah, technically he's right, but with all the various factors that have to come together just right to make a gun the right one for you, my internal response was "Well then I wouldn't buy a gun from you, because this is the right one for me whether you like it or not."

I wouldn't mind having the ability to de-cock the gun with a round in, but it's not high enough on my priority list to make it worth going with some other model when the M&P 9c is otherwise the *perfect* gun for me.

He also spent a lot of time talking about caliber and "knock-down power", and of course he's not a fan of 9mm. I wanted so badly to call him out on it with, "Knock-down power is a total myth, and you of all people in this room should know that!"

But, I kinda wanted to pass the class (which I did, with the highest score in the class on the written test, too) so I bit my tongue.

He was otherwise an excellent instructor, and 98% of what he said was spot-on and highly useful. I just disagreed with him on my gun choice, and I was very disappointed to hear someone in his position spreading the fallacy of knock-down power.

Just sharing.

-Bill

He is technically correct. The M&P (full size or compact) cannot be "decocked" at all. It is DAO. In that sense, it is just like Glock and Springfield XD and perhaps others. This instructor is a bloomin' onion!

 

[djh1765]

bkocik:

Take a look at the Law Enforcement/Military Cartridge Effectiveness Study Conducted 1995 - 1996
http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/pigboard.html

and the Comments: Regarding the The U.S. Army Tests of 1904
Bruce L. Jones
Program Manager Infantry Weapons
USMC - Pacific Theater

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/1904trial.html

If you have an open mind these test might convince you that the 9MM cartridge is so over hiped it hurts.

The 1985 decision by the United States military to adopt the 9mm Luger cartridge (M882) and M9 Beretta 9mm pistol for service use, caused a major shift in thinking among US law enforcement agencies and private shooters.

I cannot imagine how this cartridge became so popular if you take into account how ineffective it really is.

Just my opinion.

djh

 

[hipoint995]

I have two 9m (glock 17 and the M&P) i really love the round and with the right ammo, it just as lethal as a 45

 

[Wyatt Earp]

Originally posted by djh1765:
bkocik:

Take a look at the Law Enforcement/Military Cartridge Effectiveness Study Conducted 1995 - 1996
http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/pigboard.html

and the Comments: Regarding the The U.S. Army Tests of 1904
Bruce L. Jones
Program Manager Infantry Weapons
USMC - Pacific Theater

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/1904trial.html

If you have an open mind these test might convince you that the 9MM cartridge is so over hiped it hurts.

The 1985 decision by the United States military to adopt the 9mm Luger cartridge (M882) and M9 Beretta 9mm pistol for service use, caused a major shift in thinking among US law enforcement agencies and private shooters.

I cannot imagine how this cartridge became so popular if you take into account how ineffective it really is.

Just my opinion.

djh

Making inferences about the performance of 9x19 +P hollow point ammo from 2008 using the performance of 9x19 FMJ ammo from 1905 is as retarded as it gets.

 

[djh1765]

OK Wyatt Earp:

I can do without your smart ass talk. I'm not retarded and you can make a point without getting personal.

I don't think that's what this forum is all about.

djh

 

[Buford57]

With all due consideration for the feelings of others, I too, while no fan of the 9mm, am impressed by the advances in the cartridge I have witnessed in the past 35 years.

To put it in perspective, in 1979 my partner carried a P-08 as his off-duty weapon. It was loaded with the only thing (other than the highly scarce SuperVel) available - hardball. Same arm and load dhj1765 cited. What's more, it, too could not be decocked once loaded.

We've gone from hardball only to a plethora of really respectable defense loads in that time, developed for that specific purpose, with velocities approaching .357 Mag figures.

We've moved past the day when the only mechanisms available were SA "cocked and locked" or SA/DA. Too bad that instructor hasn't kept up with the times.

 

[tobar8]

Originally posted by djh1765:
bkocik:

Take a look at the Law Enforcement/Military Cartridge Effectiveness Study Conducted 1995 - 1996
http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/pigboard.html

and the Comments: Regarding the The U.S. Army Tests of 1904
Bruce L. Jones
Program Manager Infantry Weapons
USMC - Pacific Theater

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/1904trial.html

If you have an open mind these test might convince you that the 9MM cartridge is so over hiped it hurts.

The 1985 decision by the United States military to adopt the 9mm Luger cartridge (M882) and M9 Beretta 9mm pistol for service use, caused a major shift in thinking among US law enforcement agencies and private shooters.

I cannot imagine how this cartridge became so popular if you take into account how ineffective it really is.

Just my opinion.

djh

Okay, I'll cherry pick some data too. FBI one-shot statistics show .45 at 95%, .357 at 96%, .40 at 94% and .9mm at 91%.

 

[tobar8]

Originally posted by bkocik:
This past Saturday I took an NRA CCW class. The instructor, who is also an FFL, noted that he would never sell anyone my gun (M&P 9c), because it's "too dangerous." His reason is that it cannot be de-cocked with a round in the chamber.

Yeah, technically he's right, but with all the various factors that have to come together just right to make a gun the right one for you, my internal response was "Well then I wouldn't buy a gun from you, because this is the right one for me whether you like it or not."

I wouldn't mind having the ability to de-cock the gun with a round in, but it's not high enough on my priority list to make it worth going with some other model when the M&P 9c is otherwise the *perfect* gun for me.

He also spent a lot of time talking about caliber and "knock-down power", and of course he's not a fan of 9mm. I wanted so badly to call him out on it with, "Knock-down power is a total myth, and you of all people in this room should know that!"

But, I kinda wanted to pass the class (which I did, with the highest score in the class on the written test, too) so I bit my tongue.

He was otherwise an excellent instructor, and 98% of what he said was spot-on and highly useful. I just disagreed with him on my gun choice, and I was very disappointed to hear someone in his position spreading the fallacy of knock-down power.

Just sharing.

-Bill

Can't decock your J-frame either. Pull the trigger on either and it goes kaboom.