"I wouldn't sell you that gun"

[gmchenry]

You guys made me do it!

 

[shortranger]

The Thompson-LaGuard Commission conclusively proved that when you need to shoot a dead steer, nothing beats a .45ACP.

Shorty

 

[Jim Watson]

Correction, Shorty; the Thompson - LaGuarde Committee shot live steers and dead men.

Close examination of the Plastic M&P reveals that the sear cams the striker back very little. The hammer on a CZ75 cams back on its sear about as much. S&W has run a fast one past IDPA and police purchasing agents to convince them to treat it like a partially cocked Glock. And I am glad of it, my P-M&P is a good pistol, I can shoot it much better than a Glock.

 

[shortranger]

Correction, Shorty; the Thompson - LaGuarde Committee shot live steers and dead men.

I stand corrected - it's been a while. A whole bunch of years ago I was a pretty rabid Hatcherite, but over time I gave up on basing my choices on dead cows, live goats, or jiggling buckets of cherry jello. Cross sectional density, mass, velocity, chopping shoulders, expansion, speculative wound channels...I don't care any more. I'm much more concerned with getting the slug where I want it to go than anything else, and to tell the truth I'm just as happy with a mag full of 9mm ball or a cylinder of .38 Spl. SWC as I am with anything larger, smaller, faster, or fancier.

Shorty

 

[carry9]

Just another piece of information to rationalize the 9mm. Check out this website and the tests done with 147 gr. Fed. Hydrashoks, as compared to the .45 with 230 gr. Fed. Hydrashoks.
http://le.atk.com/pdf/PortlandWoundBallisticReport1.pdf
Almost identical. Yes, the .45 creates a bigger wound channel - yes, edge to the .45. But I can believe my 9mm will work just fine in a bad situation, especially since bullet technology has flourished in recent years. Practise, practise, practise.

 

[zippy1970]

the calibur debate can and probably will go on forever . the one thing is that if you have a gun , any gun , and can't hit the side of a barn with it , it does not matter what cal it is . shoot what you like , like what you shoot . a friend of mine would seel guns at shows . and almost everytime an "expert " in the gun he was selling would look at the gun , talk trash about the gun , correct / incorrect info , drawing my friend into a 20 min conversation with some one that was not going to buy the gun , just share his expertise. I told him from now on just say thanks for the info , after 5 min or so of looking at it ask if they are buying , not just informing you . and just leave . always buy what you like , like what you buy , you might be trhe only one .

 

[lonestarden]

Hi not to change the subject or anything like that but I bet I can get a million responses to what kind of ammo I should use in my S&W CS9. I am going to CCW with 115 gr. full metal jacket ammo, but when i want to get the best suited for this particular 9mm what do u think? There is just so much to learn and hopefully being new at this, how would I know if someone was feeding me a bunch of crap. Know what I mean.

 

[troutwest66]

Originally posted by lonestarden:
Hi not to change the subject or anything like that but I bet I can get a million responses to what kind of ammo I should use in my S&W CS9. I am going to CCW with 115 gr. full metal jacket ammo, but when i want to get the best suited for this particular 9mm what do u think? There is just so much to learn and hopefully being new at this, how would I know if someone was feeding me a bunch of crap. Know what I mean.

FMJ ammo is not a good idea for concealed cary or self defense if there is any other people around. FMJ doesn't expand and has a better chance of going through your target and hitting unintended targets and in the case of a miss the bullet might not be contained by walls or other structures. A good premium hollowpoint bullet should be carried. Now if your hiking in the woods then it wouldn't matter. Basically use the FMJ for practice or competition and carry good defense ammo. I carry remington Golden Sabers in my 1911 .45 but I would feel just fine with Fedreral Hydroshoks, Speer Goldots, Hornady XTP or TAP, Winchester Ranger or some of the other better known ammos.

 

[Hawgleg44]

Originally posted by lonestarden:
Hi not to change the subject or anything like that but I bet I can get a million responses to what kind of ammo I should use in my S&W CS9. I am going to CCW with 115 gr. full metal jacket ammo, but when i want to get the best suited for this particular 9mm what do u think? There is just so much to learn and hopefully being new at this, how would I know if someone was feeding me a bunch of crap. Know what I mean.

+1 to what Troutwest66 said. No FMJ for CCW use due to overpenetration and lack of stopping power. You will probably get 10 different responses from 10 different people if you ask them which JHP is "best". Honestly, today, any premium JHP design by CCI, Hornady, Winchester, Remington, Cor Bon, Black Hills, etc will serve you fine. Just choose a bullet in the 124-127gr weight that is available in your area and test your pistol for function with a minimum of 200 rounds of it.

 

[DRB]

The 9mm with hardball ammo is not a good defensive round unless you are shooting at someone with light body armor. The reason the US gave for dropping the 45 was not only the commonality with NATO but the Soviets had light body armor the 45 could not penetrate but a 9mm would. A hardball 9mm is a poor choice for personal defense round but it is no worse then a standard 38 special round nose lead as used for years by the police in this country. A 9mm with one of the new hollow points like a hydroshock is a pretty good defensive round and I would not feel undergunned with one. Defensive ammo has come a long way in the last 30 years. What ever you feel comfortable shooting and carrying is what you should carry. As is often said a .22 in the pocket beats a .45 at home. Like wise a 9mm M&P is a lot better then nothing and if you like it carry it, I personaly would not feel undergunned and i like the .45 but I have carried a S&W 317 because it is so light and easy to carry.

 

[Andy Griffith]

Originally posted by OKFC05:

The Sigma, Glock, and M&P all have basically the same type action. It is neither single nor purely double action, but what is called "Safe Action."

I do have to split a few hairs here...
Safe Action is a Glock trademarked term.
Therefore, no other brands of pistols are safe action.

S&W striker fired pistols are SFA- striker fired action

Just wanted to make certain that the tax evading Austrian got credit where credit is due, or offend any tactical tupperware owners.

Just trying to help.

 

[tobar8]

Originally posted by Andy Griffith:

Originally posted by OKFC05:

The Sigma, Glock, and M&P all have basically the same type action. It is neither single nor purely double action, but what is called "Safe Action."

I do have to split a few hairs here...
Safe Action is a Glock trademarked term.
Therefore, no other brands of pistols are safe action.

Serial Number 76595350

Word Mark SAFE ACTION
Goods and Services IC 011. US 013 021 023 031 034. G & S: LIGHTS FOR FIREARMS, NAMELY, TACTICAL LIGHTS TO BE ATTACHED TO AND FOR USE IN CONNECTION WITH FIREARMS. FIRST USE: 20021200. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20021200

IC 013. US 002 009. G & S: FIREARMS. FIRST USE: 19860100. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19860100



(REGISTRANT) Glock, Inc. CORPORATION GEORGIA 6000 Highlands Parkway Smyrna GEORGIA 30082

 

[m&p 40c]

As an IDPA match director, I have to know the technical ruling on various of the polymer pistol actions so I can put them into the right division at a match.

With all due respect, you might make a closer inspection of how the M&P action works.

The Sigma, Glock, and M&P all have basically the same type action. It is neither single nor purely double action...The trigger action completes the cocking of the striker and releases it, firing the gun. They are NOT fully cocked when at rest...

This is clearly untrue for the M&P. The striker is fully cocked by the action of the slide. Pulling the trigger merely sweeps a lever which depresses the firing pin block, disengaging it.

 

[tobar8]

Originally posted by m&p 40c:

As an IDPA match director, I have to know the technical ruling on various of the polymer pistol actions so I can put them into the right division at a match.

With all due respect, you might make a closer inspection of how the M&P action works.

The Sigma, Glock, and M&P all have basically the same type action. It is neither single nor purely double action...The trigger action completes the cocking of the striker and releases it, firing the gun. They are NOT fully cocked when at rest...

This is clearly untrue for the M&P. The striker is fully cocked by the action of the slide. Pulling the trigger merely sweeps a lever which depresses the firing pin block, disengaging it.

I thought I read that in the M&P the striker is *partially* cocked by the slide, something liek 2/3rds. The trigger does the rest of the way.

 

[TAC]

Originally posted by bkocik:
This past Saturday I took an NRA CCW class. The instructor, who is also an FFL, noted that he would never sell anyone my gun (M&P 9c), because it's "too dangerous." His reason is that it cannot be de-cocked with a round in the chamber.

-Bill

Your instructor is a buffoon!

 

[CamuMahubah]

Originally posted by DRB:
The 9mm with hardball ammo is not a good defensive round unless you are shooting at someone with light body armor. The reason the US gave for dropping the 45 was not only the commonality with NATO but the Soviets had light body armor the 45 could not penetrate but a 9mm would. A hardball 9mm is a poor choice for personal defense round but it is no worse then a standard 38 special round nose lead as used for years by the police in this country. A 9mm with one of the new hollow points like a hydroshock is a pretty good defensive round and I would not feel undergunned with one. Defensive ammo has come a long way in the last 30 years. What ever you feel comfortable shooting and carrying is what you should carry. As is often said a .22 in the pocket beats a .45 at home. Like wise a 9mm M&P is a lot better then nothing and if you like it carry it, I personaly would not feel undergunned and i like the .45 but I have carried a S&W 317 because it is so light and easy to carry.

How can the 9mm do a better job than the .45 ACP? Concerning light body armor?

 

[Hawgleg44]

Originally posted by CamuMahubah:

Originally posted by DRB:
The 9mm with hardball ammo is not a good defensive round unless you are shooting at someone with light body armor. The reason the US gave for dropping the 45 was not only the commonality with NATO but the Soviets had light body armor the 45 could not penetrate but a 9mm would. A hardball 9mm is a poor choice for personal defense round but it is no worse then a standard 38 special round nose lead as used for years by the police in this country. A 9mm with one of the new hollow points like a hydroshock is a pretty good defensive round and I would not feel undergunned with one. Defensive ammo has come a long way in the last 30 years. What ever you feel comfortable shooting and carrying is what you should carry. As is often said a .22 in the pocket beats a .45 at home. Like wise a 9mm M&P is a lot better then nothing and if you like it carry it, I personaly would not feel undergunned and i like the .45 but I have carried a S&W 317 because it is so light and easy to carry.

How can the 9mm do a better job than the .45 ACP? Concerning light body armor?

The .45acp is a large diameter, slow moving bullet, and does not penetrate soft body armor as well as a smaller diamter, faster moving bullet. It's much easier for a smaller diameter bullet to "sneak" through the strands of Kevlar, or whatever other material is used in a particular vest.

 

[CamuMahubah]

So what was needed was a S&W revolver chambered in .22 Magnum.

 

[David Hineline]

The M+P trigger just pivots the sear, if any additional prepping of the striker is done by this acting then it is just a few thousandths of an inch, nothing like the Glock at all. The striker is plenty cocked enough to set off a primer if the sear failed, but the firing pin block is supposed to stop it from going off.

There is a slight angle cut on the sear and the striker that as the sear is lowered it cams the striker back before it releases, it is not very much.

 

[gmchenry]

Originally posted by CamuMahubah:
So what was needed was a S&W revolver chambered in .22 Magnum.

5.56 M855/SS109 will penetrate like a hot knife through butter.

In simulations, 9mm JHP ammo can look more impressive. In the real world, JHPs sometimes don't expand. A 9mm may expand, but a .45 never shrinks.

In calibers above a .380 Auto, I carry Speer Gold Dots. Well engineered ammo that works very well in pretty much every application.