IMPORTANCE OF A CHRONOGRAPH - AT LEAST TO ME

[chief38]

There is so much debate, discussion, testing, design, hype and difference in SD ammunition that it's really hard to know who to believe! Even testing media, firearms, weather temps, test media, etc. vary and so it is not uncommon for the same ammo to have different outcomes when tested by different people under different circumstances. Since in certain calibers new ammo seems to be appearing almost weekly, it's almost impossible to just judge a particular load by its street track record because one has not been established yet. Since most of us are not in the business of professionally testing ammo, all we can rely on are video's, stated data and spec's. The one spec. we CAN test is the stated vs actual velocity - easily and cheaply too.

About 15 years ago I purchased a Chronograph and initially used it as an aid in working up hand loads. Now that I've recorded all data and settled in on my pet loads I rarely do that much these days. These days I mainly use my Chronograph for testing the velocity of self defense ammo. As most of us here know, a difference of a 1/2" - 3/4" of barrel length can sometimes turn a fair performer into a great performer (and visa-versa). NOT that velocity is always the only determining factor on how a bullet will perform, but if it is designed and loaded to perform at a certain velocity and YOUR forearm will not achieve that velocity - that might be an important factor in choosing or not choosing that load for SD.

In my experience the ONLY ammunition Company that states actual and 100% TRUE velocities is Buffalo Bore! Their stated velocities are SPOT ON and are always exact according to my Chronograph. Speer Gold Dot is not as spot on as BB, but at least they are reasonably close to their printed spec's. Remington & Winchester ammo has been so far off from what they state I won't even consider using their ammo for SD purposes. Federal is somewhere between the BB and the Rem/Win branded ammo. AGAIN, this has been my actual Chronograph results - not an opinion.

Chronographs are relatively affordable and are available for under $200 bucks. When I first bought mine I split the cost (I think about $130 back then) 3 ways with two friends. I have since upgraded but the new one was still under $200 Bucks I believe. Chronographing loads at least gives u SOME INSIGHT as to wether or not the specific load we are using is performing anywhere close to wha the manufacturer states and might indicate wether or not that particular load can be expected to perform as designed and advertised. Again not that a Chronograph is the end all and be all, but it is just another indicator to weather or not our ammo is up to snuff.

Also a GREAT tool for Re-loaders and I actually enjoy seeing just how my reloads and Factory ammo stacks up. It's also great to show you just how consistent the loads you are shooting actually are and just how barrel length affects bullet performance.

Well, this was on my mind (just wanted to share) since I just spent a day last week chronographing 9mm loads for use in a short barreled pistol. Some results are posted in another Thread here on the Forum if you are interested.

 

[Dave Lively]

Also a GREAT tool for Re-loaders and I actually enjoy seeing just how my reloads and Factory ammo stacks up. It's also great to show you just how consistent the loads you are shooting actually are and just how barrel length affects bullet performance.

I don't reload anymore but when I did I found a chronograph was the best way to estimate pressure. If a handload generates more velocity than factory it is running higher pressure. Looking for flattened primers was much less exact.

 

[steveno]

I ordered an Oehler 33 many years ago and used to chronograph just about everything. I paid $350 for it new and it was pretty much the only game in town back then. I probably have several hundred loads of various calibers that I have records on. I haven't used it in 5 or 6 years and I have even taken the batteries out of it. it is kind of a pain to set up but since it works so there isn't any reason to buy one that is easier to set up. there are just too many variables to worry about what load chronographs at. you can take the same load even with the same lot number out two different days in a row and come up with something different. none of the factory loads varied enough from what the factory says to worry about.

 

[chief38]

I ordered an Oehler 33 many years ago and used to chronograph just about everything. I paid $350 for it new and it was pretty much the only game in town back then. I probably have several hundred loads of various calibers that I have records on. I haven't used it in 5 or 6 years and I have even taken the batteries out of it. it is kind of a pain to set up but since it works so there isn't any reason to buy one that is easier to set up. there are just too many variables to worry about what load chronographs at. you can take the same load even with the same lot number out two different days in a row and come up with something different. none of the factory loads varied enough from what the factory says to worry about.

Most Chronographs only take a few minutes to set up but since I don't own the model you have I don't know how easy or fussy yours is. BTW I have always heard good things about Oehler's.

What I find is that it takes a few minutes to get the lighting just right. If the day you are testing is really bright and sunny, the sun screen shields have to me installed. On cloudy days they might have to be taken off if already set up. Indoors you sometimes need a supplementary light positioned above the Chronograph or else it won't operate correctly. Other than the lighting I find the set up pretty straight forward.

Years ago when I was carrying the coveted and much loved "FBI load", I chronographed Winchester, Remington and Federal's version only to find them way under-powered according to their listed velocities. Winchester's FBI load was the worst and I contacted them, complained about their false advertising and sent 6 newly purchased boxes of their 158 grain +P LSWCHP back to them for a refund. I also included a printed copy of my actual Chronograph results but never heard from them. Federal and Remington brands were not quite as dismal as the Winchester, but not much better. That is when I seeked out alternative SD carry ammo and discovered Buffalo Bore, then Gold Dots. Had I had this experience with only one brand I would have just written it off to a "bad batch" but since all 3 FBI loads were dismal - that was not the case. In contrast, I do have some Remington 158 grain +P ammo form the late 70's or early 80's both in the round nose and semi wad cutter hollow point versions that I inherited from my Dad when he passed. It is noticeably and verifiably faster so I can only conclude the newer "FBI Loads" are watered down versions of what use to be - at least from the Big 3 ammo Co's.

I have no reasons to believe my Chronograph is not accurate since I've compared it to my old one and another Club members machine. They were all within a few fps of one another as long as the muzzle of said gun was the same distance from the machine and the same ammo and guns were being shot. I have seen some slight variations between different firearms even though the barrel length was the same - but not too much. For some reason most Colt 2" Dick Spl's have a little faster velocities than a 2" chief's Spl's. I have also seen some small variations based upon ambient temperatures. All that said, I find them pretty darn accurate - all things being equal.

 

[eb07]

I use my chrono to reload exact duplicates of my carry ammo so I can train with it.

 

[steveno]

the Oehler 33 has separate screens that are mounted on a piece of tubing and then they are mounted on tripods and then set down range. the best thing about it is that at most you screw up and only shoot the screens. the brains are on the shooting table. since I'm now retired I can go to the range in the middle of the week and not have to worry about people wanting their loads chronographed.


I have never compared loads with different chronographs because the differences are meaningless.

 

[rockquarry]

I chronograph a lot of handloaded rifle and handgun ammo and have used six chronographs over the last thirty-five or so years. While I don't get exactly the same velocity readings from day to day with a particular load, figures are usually pretty close. As I recall, all my chronographs recorded similar velocities with the same loads, so I'll assume all the instruments have been accurate.

As for factory ammo velocity discrepancies, that's always been common. Laboratory conditions, guns, barrel lengths, and the operators recording it all are just a few of the changeable factors. A snub nose .38 Special will often have muzzle velocities at least 100 fps slower than a longer-barreled gun. Sometimes this may affect terminal performance; sometimes it makes no difference.

 

[Univibe]

Maybe, but I see a lot of results of Murders and other shootings in the Big City. The victims thereof don't seem to notice whether the ammo that hits them has been chrono-approved. When bullets of any kind hit them, they're either dead or seriously injured.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I started loading back in the early 70's.
Being wet behind the ears and able to run the hills, I did not
care how fast my ammo was, just that it went bang and hide and feathers flew.

I wanted to know how fast my ammo was but was just happy to get good accuracy
and let the data in books be a close guide.
Only when a few of my pistol/revolver loads did not preform as intended,
did I start to think about a chrony.

Finally in 2011 after 40 years of loading I finally broke down and bought one.
I, like you, wanted to know what my SD ammo was really doing
and I could finally start to fine tune my loads and see where any
"Sweet spots" were in my range of fps and components used.

I learned where powders peaked out with a full load vs other powders and what were not capable of true +P loadings but on
the other hand, less fps can also have better accuracy than a full
blown 100% loading in a lot of weapons.

It is nice to know that a powder can get target or SD loadings
per read outs but some are just happy to get their loads to go bang.

Working with BIG guns down to small arms while in the Navy,
I enjoyed learning the fine points of Ballistics but it is not a
mandatory thing, to enjoy shooting.

However it does help when shooting at a target twelve miles away !!

 

[andy52]

Sometimes and I include myself in this we overthink things. I've been choreographing my rifle loads for years just to better understand the long range ballistics but with handgun ammo I really just use factory ammo in my EDC and home defense guns. When I'm reloading handgun rounds for practice I just go for accuracy, if the EDC rounds and my reloads have the same point of impact I'm good with it.

 

[rockquarry]

Sometimes and I include myself in this we overthink things. I've been choreographing my rifle loads for years just to better understand the long range ballistics but with handgun ammo I really just use factory ammo in my EDC and home defense guns. When I'm reloading handgun rounds for practice I just go for accuracy, if the EDC rounds and my reloads have the same point of impact I'm good with it.

I don't do the everyday gun carry, but I agree with you on all points. With my handloads, accuracy is the most important factor. If I carried a gun on a daily basis, I would try a variety of factory ammo with different bullet designs and select the one that was most accurate and that I could shoot well, and shot closest to point of aim at reasonable distances, about fifteen and twenty-five yards.

Maybe the "best" ammo might give up a little velocity in comparison with something that was more powerful, inaccurate, and more difficult to shoot because of heavier recoil and muzzle blast. I see no contest here, but some obsess over factors that aren't nearly as important as hitting your target with consistency.

 

[ameridaddy]

There is so much debate, discussion, testing, design, hype and difference in SD ammunition that it's really hard to know who to believe! ...........
In my experience the ONLY ammunition Company that states actual and 100% TRUE velocities is Buffalo Bore! Their stated velocities are SPOT ON and are always exact according to my Chronograph.

That was my finding as well. I like that BB not only names the firearm used in their test, but also its barrel length. Velocity and accuracy results from a ten inch test barrel in a lab is not going to be very useful for deciding on what to load and shoot in a two inch snubby revolver on your hip.

 

[DWalt]

For over 20 years I have owned and used the basic model Chrony. It finally gave up on me about three months ago. Rather than buying another new one, I looked on eBay and found quite a few of them listed there. There was a Chrony Beta, somewhat like the basic, except it stores MVs and does the statistical work. It also has a remote LCD screen with controls which attaches to the skyscreen unit through a telephone cable. It was advertised to be good working condition, and indeed it was - looked like it had never been used and in the original box - for $65.00 (buy it now) including shipping!!! I needed to download the operating instructions from the Chrony website as that was the only thing missing. I have used it three times so far (not counting testing it in my back yard with a pellet gun), I wish I had bought one like it in the first place.

 

[SMSgt]

I've never used one. Never had that money to spend. I'd tag it on the first shot. Such is my luck.

I've always worked up my rifle reloads based on target pattern at various ranges. Sometimes a perfect 100-yard load won't hit the paper at 300 yards. So I start over--different powder, different bullet, whatever. I have an "approximate" velocity from load tables, and an exact number never interested me. My loads always worked, hit what I aimed at, and dropped it right there.

Some people are data hungry. That's fine. I'm more result oriented and don't care so much how it happens as that it does happen.

It works for me.

 

[moosedog]

I shoot a lot of older rifles and handguns in a wide variety of calibers and have found my Chronograph very useful for working loads up to near factory specs.

 

[Drm50]

I have never cared about velocity as far as exact. I started loading way before it was common for most to own a chrony. I start from book and work up. This was mostly for Varmit calbers and really wasn't after the
highest velocity I could get. Most hunting rifles and handguns are not run
near max. I go for accuracy with all. I can use a calculator for approx velocity if I feel the need.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

I've owned an Oehler 35P cronograph forever. 3 screens and a proof channel to eliminate erroneous readings. Helps me to work up quality loads for my guns and to positively KNOW how fast my projectiles are traveling.
NO data from a published recipe will ever be equal to that load in YOUR gun.

 

[rockquarry]

The Oehler 35P probably remains the best affordable chronograph for handloaders. I've used several other chronographs including the Labradar. My 35P has been factory rebuilt once and continues to work fine after more than twenty-five years. You won't outgrow a good chronograph and wish for something better.

The much newer Labradar has only one advantage over the Oehler and that's in setup time; it's quicker and more convenient. Either unit will stand up to chronographing hundreds or even thousands of rounds a year in load development.

 

[Texas Star]

Most Chronographs only take a few minutes to set up but since I don't own the model you have I don't know how easy or fussy yours is. BTW I have always heard good things about Oehler's.

What I find is that it takes a few minutes to get the lighting just right. If the day you are testing is really bright and sunny, the sun screen shields have to me installed. On cloudy days they might have to be taken off if already set up. Indoors you sometimes need a supplementary light positioned above the Chronograph or else it won't operate correctly. Other than the lighting I find the set up pretty straight forward.

Years ago when I was carrying the coveted and much loved "FBI load", I chronographed Winchester, Remington and Federal's version only to find them way under-powered according to their listed velocities. Winchester's FBI load was the worst and I contacted them, complained about their false advertising and sent 6 newly purchased boxes of their 158 grain +P LSWCHP back to them for a refund. I also included a printed copy of my actual Chronograph results but never heard from them. Federal and Remington brands were not quite as dismal as the Winchester, but not much better. That is when I seeked out alternative SD carry ammo and discovered Buffalo Bore, then Gold Dots. Had I had this experience with only one brand I would have just written it off to a "bad batch" but since all 3 FBI loads were dismal - that was not the case. In contrast, I do have some Remington 158 grain +P ammo form the late 70's or early 80's both in the round nose and semi wad cutter hollow point versions that I inherited from my Dad when he passed. It is noticeably and verifiably faster so I can only conclude the newer "FBI Loads" are watered down versions of what use to be - at least from the Big 3 ammo Co's.

I have no reasons to believe my Chronograph is not accurate since I've compared it to my old one and another Club members machine. They were all within a few fps of one another as long as the muzzle of said gun was the same distance from the machine and the same ammo and guns were being shot. I have seen some slight variations between different firearms even though the barrel length was the same - but not too much. For some reason most Colt 2" Dick Spl's have a little faster velocities than a 2" chief's Spl's. I have also seen some small variations based upon ambient temperatures. All that said, I find them pretty darn accurate - all things being equal.

Thanks for the info on those sorry FBI loads. I knew they were too mild, but was surprised that Winchester was the weakest.

Did they give you the requested refund?

What were the actual velocities of the three brands?

 

[chief38]

Thanks for the info on those sorry FBI loads. I knew they were too mild, but was surprised that Winchester was the weakest.

Did they give you the requested refund?

What were the actual velocities of the three brands?

Winchester did send me the refund at the price I paid and they also paid the shipping. Originally when I spoke to them, I requested 6 replacement boxes for what I was returning but they said it would be the same as what I was sending back. I actually still have the Chronograph results somewhere in the house, but off hand IIRC the +P 158 grain LSWCHP +P "FBI Loads were doing in the low to mid 700's range - way way below their advertised 890 fps. This was out of a 2.5" M66 which was not expected to hit the 890 fps since they were probably rated from a 4" barrel, but I did not expect a loss of almost 20%!!

If memory serves (without digging out data book) the Remington and Federal clocked in at about 760 - 785fps range - same gun.

The same style 158 grain +P FBI Load from Buffalo Bore out of the same 2.5" M66 did 1060 fps! That is a gain of 40%