Info Requested on Russian S&W

[Hitthespot]

I''m a little disappointed but happy to be finding out more about the Revolver. I guess if nothing decisive developed I should just take the 1500.00 from the local gun shop who offered it. I have very little invested in it.

I appreciate everyones help and opinions. I know little about refinishing even though I've watch a friend who is a gun smith (a good one I might add) refinish many a firearm. Through all that polishing I just don't see how the numbers and text on this revolver could be factory crisp. But it is what it is.

Bill

 

[mrcvs]

Since the general consensus, as described above, is that it is refinished, it cannot bring the amount an original firearm might bring. My guess is that the LGS offered $1500 because it believes the finish is original to this firearm. Indeed, it takes a student of antique Smith & Wesson firearms, many of whom hang out on this forum regularly, to identify a good refinish as such.

You might be well advised to accept the $1500 offer locally. Or post somewhat higher in the classifieds section of this forum and see if you can't get an offer slightly in excess of $1500, identifying, of course, that your firearm is refinished. You can ship through the mail and ship to the buyer without an FFL as this is a pre 1899 firearm.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

If you aren't in a hurry, you might consider getting an historian's letter of authenticity. That would confirm the finish in which the gun shipped. They cost $75 and would likely return that cost at sale, especially if the revolver shipped with a nickel finish. Lately, the turn around has been less than a month.

 

[Hitthespot]

Thank you again for the reply. How do I go about this history letter?

Bill

 

[mrcvs]

I don't think I would invest in a historical letter on a firearm I did not intend to keep if the firearm is refinished. A historical letter would state the original finish, but is it worth spending the money to know if the gun was originally blued and refinished as nickel, or if originally nickel, and later renickeled?

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Here's a link to the historical letter page.

Here are my thoughts on this. A historical letter tells you background on the model, its shipping configuration and when and to whom the gun was sent. We know it went to S&H since it bears their stamp. However, there is question on the finish. If the letter confirms it was refinished, you still have authenticated the gun and it is likely worth the price of the letter to a future buyer. If the letter confirms it is in original finish, you have perhaps increased the value of the gun by at least $1000. Some folks have been throwing out values of $3000 or more if original. I don't know about that, but I strongly feel it will be worth more than the cost of the letter with a confirming letter.

 

[mrcvs]

A historical letter cannot confirm if a gun is in its original finish. It can only confirm what the original finish was, and if the current finish and that described in the letter are one in the same, it takes anything from an unskilled eye to a very skilled eye, depending on the quality of the (re)finish, to determine if the finish is original or not.

A factory letter CAN verify a refinish by describing a finish different from that currently on the gun.

 

[Hitthespot]

Well I decided to take a little road trip this morning and have the revolver looked at in person. This gun smith has been repairing and refinishing firearms for almost 40 years. Probably the best in my part of the state.. I also got lucky because when I got there another old timer ( gun smith ) was also there picking up a part.

I asked them to inspect the gun and give me an honest opinion. They asked me what I wanted to know about it. I said if the finish was original, and what condition they felt it was in.

After around 20 minutes of inspecting it with different magnifying glasses the smith I went to see handed it to the visiting smith. I said lets wait and not contaminate his opinion. Funny the other guy said you won't contaminate my opinion because I pretty much made up my mind after seeing it for two minutes, but I'll finish my inspection.

They both agreed that the finish was absolutely original, and the second man said you not only can tell by inspecting it, I've owned two myself exactly like this and I know they were not refinished. they placed it at 70-80%

So the plot thickens for me. LOL

 

[mrcvs]

This is one of the best refinished I have ever seen, but it has to be a refinish. What else explains, among other things, the nickeled barrel latch? For comparison, please refer to some of these firearms for sale at the top auction houses and retail firearms outlets in the country. None that are unrefinished are nickeled to this degree.

Having said that, if there is an exception out there, and I have never seen one and cannot see why one would exist, this firearm comes closest to that.

I am not willing to purchase this one as 100% original only to find out later I was wrong.

Having said that, I would love to own this particular firearm if presented with irrefutable evidence that it is not refinished.

 

[Hitthespot]

I understand because I have the same problem. I absolutely refuse to sell something of historical significance, no matter how small, that is not represented 100% correctly.

However it just doesn't look like I will ever have irrefutable evidence. I took it to the most knowledgeable people I know and they said it was absolutely original. I just don't know what to do at this point and again, I will not sell it without being convinced myself of what I'm selling.

P.S. it must just be the barrel latch thing because the smith said the hammer, and trigger were not nickel plated.

I'm starting to lose patients now. I had no idea this was going to be so difficult!

 

[mrcvs]

The historical letter could disprove the current finish. That is, if it letters as a blued finish, it is therefore refinished. If nickel, it just thickens the mystery.

I have spoken with the OP on the phone and he is a true gentleman!

 

[Hitthespot]

MRCVS, thank you so much for all the time you've spent trying to help me. Maybe someday I'll know for sure, or maybe I'll get lucky and more samples like mine will show up proving it original. I will hold on to it until I'm fairly convinced one way or the other.

I guess even if it was refinished a long time ago, it's a beautiful gun, the gun smiths were amazed the Ivory handles had no checkering or cracks in them. They said they have patina'd beautifully. Did i say that correctly?

Again thank you everyone!!

Bill

 

[sw44russ]

There is Nickel on the Latch, there is Nickel on the Trigger Guard, there may even be Nickel on the Hammer! Unless someone took these parts off and had them Nickeled to match the Original, it can be just about guaranteed this Gun has been refinished. The line around the Side Plate does not look to me like it should if the Gun were original. Yes, the lettering is clear and sharp; all this says to me is that whomever refinished the Gun knew what they were doing and took care not to ruin the lettering. A Nickel job can be a good Nickel Job; they aren't always bad!! A S&W Letter will (probably) say what kind of finish the Gun left the Factory with, but that's all. What happened over the next 140 odd years is anyones guess.
Of course if the Letter says 'Special Order with Nickeled Latch, Trigger Guard and Hammer and a pronounced line around the Side Plate' I will not only eat my best hat but video it and post it on youtube for everyone's enjoyment!!
If you paid very little for it; then keep it !! What a great Shooter Grade Russian; the Dealer will put a crazy price on it and further inflate the already inflated prices that the uninitiated so often pay for Guns that are not Collector Quality but are priced as such by unscrupulous Dealers.

 

[Brian in SLC]

Looks similar to mine...



S/N of the above in the 48,000 range. "1874" in a box above the serial number on the bottom of the grip.

Ivory grips are pretty sweet!

 

[mrcvs]

There is Nickel on the Latch, there is Nickel on the Trigger Guard, there may even be Nickel on the Hammer! Unless someone took these parts off and had them Nickeled to match the Original, it can be just about guaranteed this Gun has been refinished. The line around the Side Plate does not look to me like it should if the Gun were original. Yes, the lettering is clear and sharp; all this says to me is that whomever refinished the Gun knew what they were doing and took care not to ruin the lettering. A Nickel job can be a good Nickel Job; they aren't always bad!! A S&W Letter will (probably) say what kind of finish the Gun left the Factory with, but that's all. What happened over the next 140 odd years is anyones guess.
Of course if the Letter says 'Special Order with Nickeled Latch, Trigger Guard and Hammer and a pronounced line around the Side Plate' I will not only eat my best hat but video it and post it on youtube for everyone's enjoyment!!
If you paid very little for it; then keep it !! What a great Shooter Grade Russian; the Dealer will put a crazy price on it and further inflate the already inflated prices that the uninitiated so often pay for Guns that are not Collector Quality but are priced as such by unscrupulous Dealers.

Excellent points sw44russ! As you stated, unless lettered as nickeled hammer, trigger guard, and barrel latch (thereby becoming a custom gun) there is no reason why this particular gun would be nickeled in these places, unless it was renickeled later. In an earlier post, I stated I believed that this was an old renickel, but I wanted to "hope" for this one being the exception. If you collect antique firearms, you want to avoid "excuse" guns. That is, the gun is 100% right except for... To collect the very best, you want 100% correct, without the "excuse" part. The only plausible explanation for a mass produced firearm differing from many others might be due to a design change. Usually such firearms fall into a certain range. For example, think of early Colt SAA revolver production. The earliest produced contained a pinched frame prior to a design change. Perhaps, if this revolver was amongst the very earliest produced, it could be argued that "maybe" the earliest produced were 100% nickeled. If a few others surfaced, it would provide credence to such a claim. Otherwise, it just cannot be!

Also, excellent point with regards to the sideplate. That also supports a refinish. Although the sideplates of most refinished firearms are far worse, the interface isn't as crisp as it should be if not a refinished firearm.

 

[Hitthespot]

I finally found a pretty astute collector in the area who said he would take a look at it and give me his opinion wether he was interested in it or not.

I will let you know what he says. My appointment is later today.

Again thanks everyone for being so helpful!

Bill

 

[mrcvs]

I finally found a pretty astute collector in the area who said he would take a look at it and give me his opinion wether he was interested in it or not.

I will let you know what he says. My appointment is later today.

Well, what did you find out? Thanks!

 

[Hitthespot]

I believe what the three people who inspected the gun believed. That the finish was original. However, I will not dispute the couple people who believe it was refinished, I am in no position to do so. So based on that I let the gun go for $1800.00, but will always believe I cut myself short.

Thank you everyone for being so kind with your time and efforts in helping me. Based on this experience, I hope that I can be a contributing member of this forum.

 

[Hitthespot]

Looks similar to mine...

View attachment 268926

S/N of the above in the 48,000 range. "1874" in a box above the serial number on the bottom of the grip.

Ivory grips are pretty sweet!

Brian, unless Im missing something my gun looks identical to the one you have. The wear pattern is even almost the same. Is yours refinished?

Thanks

 

[sw44russ]

S&W Guns had Blued Latches and Trigger Guards and Case Coloured Hammers on their Nickeled Guns. On a Gun with original Finish; the Side Plate is an almost seamless fit to the Frame and you have to look hard to even see it

$1800 was a very good price to get for a Refinished, albeit a well Refinished Gun. If it was a Dealer who bought it, they have paid Full Retail + for it. Now they will mark it up and charge the next owner an inflated price and so the cycle goes on; Dealers paying full Retail and novice buyers paying way to much - if the Gun sells. Look on GB and you will a find a hundred old Guns that the Dealer paid too much for and cant sell it for what they want because their price is based on whatever they paid plus a usually hefty margin.

The 38 SH or DA is a perfect example; Shooter Grade (Refinished or Down in the mouth) worth about $250. The Dealer buys the Gun at full Retail Price and they turn up on GB for $395 and sit there for months!!
If the Gun has aftermarket Stocks or a shiny Refinish; it will likely even sell.
The other puzzling one is the SH or DA with the Bobbed Barrel; often selling for double the value because somebody has butchered the Gun!!
I guess at the end of the day; the value is what someone is willing to pay for something they want and that often defies logic.