Input for 5th Edition of SCSW invited

[ACEd]

3914DAO

For consideration as an addition - 3914DAO for NYPD approved (listed) off duty weapon. Observed S/N prefixes incl MSF (earliest observed 6-1998 per SW), VJF, VJJ (2003), BAY, BDK, BEM, BJM (2008), UBZ (2009), UCF, UCS (Indented S/N right side, Houlton, ME), UCT (2012), UCV (back to Springfield, MA), UCU (2012-2013), UCW (2015), UCZ (Laser Etched S/N not indented, right side 2015-2017), VJF, VJJ (2003).

 

[P33v3]

Hey Jim good to hear from you. I contributed to the 4th Ed and will start watching this thread but here are the values I can provide you.

These are all prices for guns I’ve bought, sold, or seen sold in local shops.

They will be listed this way:
FAIR/GOOD/LNIB

No safety
Model 10 HB - 450/600/800
Model 15 - 500/650/900
Model 13 - 500/750/900 (if it is a 3 inch version add $100)
Model 19 - 650/850/1100
Model 36 - 500/650/850 (3 inch pencil barrel add $50)
Model 49 - 450/550/700
Model 30 - 350/400/500
Model 29 - 900/1200/1500

Frame safety
586L COMP PC - 900/1100/1300
Model 58 - 800/1000/1200
Model 69 - 700/800/900
Model 357 Nightguard 1050/1500/2000
M&P 340 700/850/1000

Autoloaders
Model 6906 - 600/650/750
Model 4513TSW -650/750/800
Model 1006 - 1000/1100/1300
Model 1076 - 950/1200/1400 (if a lettered FBI gun 2500 +)
Model 645 - 750/900/1100
Model 4506 - 650/800/900
Shield EZ - 350/400/500 (all calibers)
Shield Plus -400/450/550 (also all calibers)

 

[mrcvs]

Jim,

On page 53 of SCSW4, you describe the following: Two-piece boxes. 1933-1941. Blue picture box. In early 1933, S&W introduced a blue box with a picture of the model printed on the lid and with model information printed on the sides of the lid. It is believed that these were initially issued for both the .38/44 Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman models.

On page 181, you state, in reference to the .38/44 Heavy Duty model, that “Guns manufactured from 1930 to 1935 shipped in maroon boxes and from 1935 to 1940 in blue picture boxes. I don’t know if there was overlap until 1935 with the blue picture box and the maroon ones or if the maroon one was discontinued in 1933, but the reference to the blue picture boxes starting in 1935 is in error and should be revised to early 1933.

Lastly, I don’t know if a reference to the wording on the inside of the box being bilingual (English/Spanish) warrants a reference, as it’s certainly interesting, likely for sales to Mexico and/or South America, but I’m not sure how extensive these sakes were to begin with.

Also, there were two types of picture boxes for these models and the Registered Magnum. Type I, that pictured the service stocks on the box, and Type II, which pictured the Magna stocks on the box. There is no reference to this in SCSW4, and a reference to this in SCSW5 would be more thorough.

The end date of the blue picture box, on page 181 is stated as being 1940, and yet it states that 11,111 .38/44 Heavy Duty revolvers were manufactured 1930 - 1941. And, on page 53, it states the blue picture boxes ended with S&W’s closure for wartime production in 1941, so I would think a revision is necessary on page 181 to reference 1941 instead of 1940 as the end date for blue picture boxes.

Thus, this line should read, on page 181, as follows: Guns manufactured from 1930 to 1935 shipped in maroon boxes and from early 1933 to 1941 in blue picture boxes. Unless the maroon box ended with the advent of the blue picture box, in which case that would have ended in early 1933. I’m not aware if there was overlap, or not.

Photographs of my .38/44 Heavy Duty that shipped in July 1934 are attached, it having Service stocks and being in the correct Type I box are attached. The serial number on the tape on the underside of the box is illegible, and so I don’t know if I have THE box or just A box.

 

[YeshuaIsa53]

Hello Jim,

Was trying to help clarify a few things on the forum, when I saw something caught my eye.

One thing we can be certain of, 4 screw 8 3/8" Pre M14 and pre 17 guns are very scarce. Not so with the M48. There seems to be lots of them for sale. Big Larry

Wish I could see a non-model marked Pre 14 or Pre 17 lettered with the 8 3/8" barrel. Anyone have a factory lettered one they wish to share? I'd love to see them. My Model 14 four screw with lettered 8 3/8" barrel shipped
May 1, 1959. The letter states walnut checkered grips, which is lettered that way on several of those I hold. It is my guess if the term magna or target is not present, they must be magna style. I'll have to dig it up and clean it for a picture or two one day.

The 3rd Edition does state, "checkered walnut Magna style grips".

Seems a lot was going on around 1957-1959. The 3rd Edition shows on the Model 14 a lot of changes.
1957: stamping of model number.
1959: 14-1 change extractor rod from right-hand to left-hand thread.
1959: Introduce 8 3/8" barrel.

I need to buy a 4th Edition while waiting on the fifth.

The Model 17 lists walnut magna grips.
1957: Stamping of the model number.
1958: Introduce 8 3/8" barrel.

Here it shows 1958 for the Model 17 8 3/8" barrel, while the 14 shows 1959. I wonder what the fourth edition shows? If you have any left you would sell me, let me know. Thanks, Bud

 

[Miami_JBT]

@JimSupica, I can provide you detail info and photos of the WVSP 4566TSW pistols. I sent you an email.

 

[UltraCarry45]

Maybe this isn't too late.
More info on the stocks so it is easier to replace the period correct stocks on a gun that has aftermarket stocks on it.

 

[JimSupica]

DON"T try to put it all in one book...........#1 and #2 are good. #3 & #4 pull a vacuum be cuz you left out a lot of info on guns in 1 & 2........Iffen ya gonna do a 5 take it from the present and run with it......Don't short change us like you do on 3 & 4.

Thanks Mike, appreciate the input.

It was long long ago in a galaxy far far away, but I don't recall removing much info from the 1st & 2nd Eds when we did the 3rd & 4th.

IF you have the time and inclination, I'd enjoy seeing useful info from the 1st & 2nd that was removed. If possible (and if we have space and if I learn about it in time) we might try to add it back.

As to some of the other suggestions in this thread, all are appreciated!

Some of our decisions are dictated by the restrictions of the publishing industry. For example, we've suggested multiple volume &/or looseleaf editions before, but those apparently just don't sell. The size of the book and restrictions on page count dictate how many photos (and how large) can be included.

 

[JimSupica]

All model 38 Single Action 3rd models, all 38 Single Action Mexican models, and all First Model (Single Shot Model of 1891) are antiques per the attached letter from Mr Roy Jinks to the ATF in 1972. All frames were made before 1899 per this letter.

On page 94 in the 38 SA 3rd model section and the and 38 SA Mexican model states they were manufactured 1891 to 1911. Should a note be added like the one on page 116 for the New Model 3 that reads:

NOTE: Although the New Model Number 3 was cataloged into the early 1900's, it has be reported that all frames were manufactured by 1898, making the gun an an antique.

On page 124 under the First Model (Single Shot Model of 1891) it says Manufactured C. 1893-1905. This could also have the same note above that is changed for the First Model Single Shot

Same with the 32 Hand Ejector 1st Model Double-Action Revolver (Model 1 or Model 1896) on pages 140 and 141

Very helpful - I wasn't aware of some of these.

What was the publication that those pictured pages were in?

And is anyone aware of any subsequent information on the antique status of the guns listed that changes the conclusion that all are considered pre-1899 antiques?

 

[JimSupica]

Special order top break 2 1/2" barrels exist per the attached letters.

Page 99 under .38 Safety Hammerless 4th model. Under the variations section it reads "Special order barrel lengths - 1-1/2-inch and 2-inch barreled special order guns exist...." 2-1/2-inch can be added to the list.

Page 97 under variations a note could be added that special order barrel length of 2-1/2 inch exist. A gun was special ordered by Mr. T.L. Felts. Mr. Felts was an owner in the Baldwin-Felts detective agency.

Listed in the same section "Historical note: s/n 42566 used by Floyd Allen in a daring getaway in a Hillsville Va Courthouse on March 14, 1912. ...." Mr T. L. Felts with his detectives captured Floyd Allen after his escape. Unfortunately Mr. Felts did not own the 2-1/2 inch gun when Allen was captured. He bought the gun a year later.

Also attached is a picture of Mr. T. L. Felts and Floyd Allen.

Thanks! For the gun listed on page 97, is that the .38 DA Perfected Model or the .38 DA 5th that has a 2.5" barrel variation?

 

[JimSupica]

Done through here.

 

[Boulder350]

Very helpful - I wasn't aware of some of these.

What was the publication that those pictured pages were in?

This was taken from the "Twenty ~ Fifth Anniversary" reprints of "The Smith & Wesson Journal", Book 1, Pages 94-96. It was originally published in the "Smith & Wesson Collector's News", March and June, 1973. Volume 5 Number 1 & 2

Sorry I did not include the complete ATF response in the first post. Below is the letter again from R.G. Jinks to the ATF along with the response from the ATF to Mr. Jinks.

 

[Boulder350]

Thanks! For the gun listed on page 97, is that the .38 DA Perfected Model or the .38 DA 5th that has a 2.5" barrel variation?

It was the .38 DA Perfected Model, 2.5" barrel variation

 

[Aussie Collector]

Maybe too late...or already noted.

Model 459
"They are reported as falling in the A881000 to A881950 serial number range. These should bring a premium for rarity. Any gun that could be documented to the FBI would bring a premium. If convincing documentation is provided that definitively shows one of these to have been an XM9 government purchase, that would add significantly to the value of that individual gun, but to date, none such is known"

serial number A881673 apparently has been confirmed by historical foundation.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

Just some neat non gun items

 

[PHS327]

Information on 1989 model 60 ladysmiths and 1989 model 36 ladysmiths seems suspect. 4th edition page 244 lists 36-4 and 36-5 for the ladysmith models. I've never seen either but 36-3 ladysmiths seem very common. Page 261 lists the 60-6 ladysmith but all I ever see are 60-3 ladysmths.

 

[DCWilson]

Wish I had thought to look at this a couple of years ago. At least you are getting it in time for the 6th edition.

.22/32 Kit Gun (prewar), SCSW4, p. 133, closing lines of the first paragraph. Revise to say:

"A small S&W trademark is found on the frame's left side in 1936 production. With 1937 production, the trademark was enlarged and moved to the sideplate. Specimens are known with trademarks in both positions."

I don't know the source for the serial number 525670; maybe a special order? The first prototypes of the KG that I know about are numbered 527711 and 527712. Commercial production probably began around SN 529450 (I have 529488, which letters as a Kit Gun) and continued in the .32 HE serial sequence until 534586, which appears to mark the end of prewar I-frame production in this serial sequence. The serial number 534587 is said, perhaps erroneously, to be the serial number of the first transitional KG shipped after the war; factory docs show that KGs numbered 534533-534562 were assembled from prewar parts in 1951. The number 536684 should be removed as it repeats a typo from a printed history.

Perhaps a note could be added that total prewar production of the KG is thought to be less than 1500.

 

[delcrossv]

Just to add to the M frame article,
3-1/2" 3rd Model target (picture sent previously), and a 2nd model 6" plain sight(picture in thread in this section)

 

[pasound]

Nice to see there is input to the next edition, as I await delivery of #5 the end of this month.

 

[EEResQ]

Christmas in July gift to me.

Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, 5th Ed. Dec. 2024
If anyone has purchased prior editions, like me, you recognize Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson to be the authority on anything Smith & Wesson. However, after just the first hour reviewing this new publication, I have found the fifth edition to be a fantastic addition to my firearms reference library.
Thank you Jim Supica and Richard Nahas!!!

 

[A10]

I'm seeing on the other Forum that folks are starting to receive their copies! I'm waiting until after the Christmas rush to get mine ordered. From what I have seen they turned out beautifully!