Interesting Article on Stopping Power Praises .357

[dwever]

Bringing up the issue of stopping power around gun owners is like bringing up religion or politics at a party. So this is no more than a current discussion for me since I very recently experienced just enough 1911 failures (.45 and 9mm) such that my Perf. Ctr. 627 Ultimate Defensive Revolver came off of my closet shelf and back on my hip. Neither of my Perf. Ctr. 627's EVER malfunctioned, but I did sell the 5" barreled one after I bought the imminently more carry friendly 2.625" barrel. So anyway, I was interested to run across the mentioned article by the occasionally controversial Chuck Hawks; but, the research by Greg Ellifritz below that is probably the most interesting and informative because he reveals his data. So here's Chuck:

Handgun Stopping Power
"Back in the 1960's, big bore fans asserted that .45 ACP 230 grain ball ammo would achieve 95% one shot stops. Subsequent research has shown that 230grain FMJ .45 ACP loads actually provide about 60-64% one shot stops and several smaller calibers using expanding bullets are more effective stoppers.

The most effective of all self-defense handgun cartridges is the medium bore .357 Magnum with a 125 grain JHP bullet, which provides 93-97% stops. Those numbers are supported by a huge data base and several different researchers, working independently, have discovered essentially the same thing."

Well that spoke directly to my situation. So it is encouraging to me; and, I noted the Federal Premium .357 low recoil was one of two he specifically recommends. Having shot that before, I am reminded that the Fed Prem is a manageable .357 load, and it may say low recoil, and perhaps it is low recoil when you consider that particular load is packing 490 ft. lbs. of energy (130 grain at 1,300 FPS). So set expectations accordingly. While the Fed Prem is fine in my 37 oz. weapon, if you need a .357 load much more user really friendly try the Speer .357 short barrel, but your giving up quit a bit of power.

Now not everyone here is a fan of Mr. Hawks, so I wanted to add a quote by Richard Mann, and then mention an expansive study done by Greg Ellfritz who is a LEO who is a master instructor in 75 weapons systems and is graduate trained in statistics. He studied thousands of shootings over ten years and comes to a very interesting and different conclusion than Hawks.

"And then there's impact velocity. When you combine high impact velocity with expansion, wound cavities get very large. This should not come as a surprise. The .38 Spl. and the .357 Mag. shoot the same caliber bullet, but the .357 Mag. pushes it much faster and has a much better record for stopping bad guys. When comparing their performance in 10 percent gelatin using similar bullets, the difference is obvious." Retired homicide investigator and ballistics expert Richard Mann in American Rifleman.

Greg Ellifritz , and I say it with admiration, is an over-trained over-educated LEO fire arms instructor who really paid too much attention in his graduate statistics classes as he subsequently analyzed thousands and thousands of shootings over a ten year period.

So his numbers are very interesting regardless of where you stand with his conclusions. Also, when someone is shot, his distinction between an immediate physical stop and an immediate psychological stop is worth the article. Check out the numbers (An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power | Buckeye Firearms Association), and he says in his conclusion:

"This study took me a long time and a lot of effort to complete. The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...even the lowly .22s."

Greg continues, "I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet. There isn't one. And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.

Take a look at the data. I hope it helps you decide what weapon to carry. No matter which gun you choose, pick one that is reliable and train with it until you can get fast accurate hits. Nothing beyond that really matters! (Greg Ellifritz is a full time firearms and defensive tactics training officer for a large central Ohio police department. He holds instructor or master instructor certifications in more than 75 different weapon systems, defensive tactics programs and police specialty areas. Greg has a master's degree in Public Policy and Management and is an instructor for both the Ohio Peace Officer's Training Academy and the Tactical Defense Institute)."

Hope I haven't re-plowed a field here. About the only things I'm doing equipment wise is getting night sights for my 627 snub below to match my duty Glocks.

 

[caleb4387]

I suppose the benefit I can see of 357 is the bullet expanding sooner making for a larger overall channel for increased quicker blood loss

 

[NEURON]

Sorry to hear of your problems with the 9mm and .45ACP. What exactly has been the problem? Mine are all working great but thanks for another article extolling a certain caliber of handgun.

 

[silentflyer]

Explains why my Model 19 is near and dear to me.....

 

[wrhk33]

Here are my questions every time I hear about the data on the 125 grain 357 shootings. What barrel length? I would think most of that data are police shootings done with 4 inch barrels. If you look at the chrono data from snubs in 375s, many times they are not any better than 9mm loads.
I would also guess that those officers who carried those six shooters had better shot placement than some current officers who carry 17 shot autos.
I admit I could be 100% wrong on this.

 

[Mike@NDS]

"If you can shoot."

 

[bigwheelzip]

Thanks for the info. The Ellifritz article was a good read. Confirms my CWP instructors statement that, A handgun is what you use while your getting your long gun. My husband has been making me finish our pistol sessions at the range with a couple of 00 rounds fired from our Mossberg 500 into the pistol target. The big holes are a very effective teaching aid for home defense.

 

[Fishinfool]

I would agree with the OP that the 125 grain JHP out of a .357 mag has been the gold standard in for stopping power in handguns for a long time. Its only with the recent design of modern HP ammo that the popular semi-auto calibers have become parallel in performance.

Interesting comparison between "Physical" and "Psychological" stopping power. It is true that a large number of felons will give up quickly when being shot with any caliber - that's human nature.

It is also true a certain percentage will not, and that is where having the most effective load you can carry can make the difference.

Larry

 

[old&slow]

conclusion:
Caliber really isn't all that important.

First of all I'm NO expert on anything by any stretch of the imagation.. So, my opinion and a buck and a half , might get you a cup of coffee..

Over the years, I have read many articles about stopping power, Marshall , Ellifritz, etc.. And while I find them quite interesting, I have to questions some of the conclusions.

A very angry bear is charging from 35 yards away.. Do you want your single shot .223 with a 55 gr FMJ at 3300 fps.? Or your single shot 45-70 with a 405 JSP at 1500 fps.?

A 5'10" 165 pound linebacker, will have the same stopping power as a 6'4" , 265 pound linebacker.

Shooting a deer in the tail with an elephant gun is just as effective as a .22 LR behind the ear.

I agree , Carry what you want.. Carry what you are accurate with.. Carry what you are confident and efficient with..

But I don't think I'm going to feel as confident with a .25 or .32 as I do with my 45 ACP or .357 ..

 

[Old cop]

Interesting article. It clearly shows little difference between the .38, which I routinely carry, and the .380, which I carry as my wardrobe needs dictate. Experience has taught me my .38 FBI load, which I had to use during my LEO career, works so I trust it. The little .380 is close so I also trust that. I practice with both guns on a regular basis.

I can no longer tolerate carrying a duty sized weapon due to physical changes as I've aged. That, plus my fly below the radar approach to life, will hopefully see me through w/o another encounter w/a dangerous person.

 

[dwever]

Sorry to hear of your problems with the 9mm and .45ACP. What exactly has been the problem? Mine are all working great but thanks for another article extolling a certain caliber of handgun.

I think by the end of the post, perhaps it backs away from extolling anything per the last study.

Not really a problem w/1911, very very reliable, just not as reliable as the duty Glock or the revolver. While anything will malfunction, the last time the big revolver had a malfunction was never; I've been shooting it for some years, went to a competitive shooting school with it around 2011. But the last two or three years it has mostly been parked on a shelf.

I'd like to get a minor action tune, anybody experience the TK Custom defensive carry tune?

Pics - Holes made recently by S&W Performance Center 627-5 2.625" Barrel 8-Shot timed: 12.87 seconds single action (left); Then double action 8 shots in 6.13 seconds no reload (right) at seven yards.

 

[Kernel Crittenden]

In Greg Ellifritz article it's interesting to note that the two cartridges with the highest "% of hits that were fatal" were the .357 Mag and the .22 Long Rifle. Both had a "hits that were fatal" ratio of 34%.

 

[kthom]

Mr. Finn Aagaard, noted gunwriter and longtime hunter, shooter, and big game hunting guide both in Africa and other places has been printed as saying basically that while you don't go hunting elephant with a .22LR, all the hoopla about which rifle caliber is best for shooting game, especially that which can and does take exception to being shot, boils down to where the shot lands on the beast, not which shot lands there. My experience tells me that the human beast is not materially different from those animals that Mr. Aagaard spent a lifetime hunting, shooting, and observing while someone else took a shot at them. If a shooter has a bad flinch when he manipulates the trigger on his big caliber "loudenboomer", that's when the guide who is backing him up has to go to work. He has a great deal to say about this, and bottom line, he says if you can shoot what you are shooting well under stress, if the bullet lands where it should to cause the maximum damage and effect, it doesn't matter a whole lot what the size of the bullet is or the cartridge that fires it .... IF ... big IF!... the round produces enough penetration to get the bullet to the place in the beast where the damage needs to occur to put it down.

That, in my experience, holds true for a personal protection weapon. Whatever YOU, not anyone else, can shoot well under the circumstances that exist for any of us to be justified in shooting at another human beast, and if it has sufficient penetration power to get where it needs to go, will get the job done. Trouble is, sometimes the beast doesn't know it's dead for what may be a long period of seconds during which it can stick a horn in you!!!

Calibers are not as big a deal as we make of them, within reason, of course. Being able to deliver that caliber quickly, accurately and with the ability to deliver follow up shots the same way is what is important. All of us are different. If you know what works (really works!) for you, good for you, and I don't mind hearing you say that, but it may not be the best choice for any one else but you! Each of us must carefully and honestly spend time and money to determine what is the best for ourselves. Each of us will have to deal with our own consequences based on our choice! Just some food for thought ....

 

[Buford57]

Big enough to give you confidence, small enough to always carry. Modern defensive ammunition. Take your choice.

 

[DR505]

Carry the handgun, of whatever caliber, that you can:
1. Effectively conceal and have with you;
2. Get a fast and accurate first shot off;
3. Get multiple, accurate, fast follow-up shots.
Shot placement is king. Shots placement is better.

I've seen men killed with one shot from a lowly .380, and others survive multiple hits from common LE rounds...one guy took a hit each from a 9mm, a .40 S&W, AND a .223 and survived (17 mile running gun battle...heck of a crime scene).

 

[Abbynormal]

Back in the 80's, Evan Marshall, who was a ( if I remember correctly ) was a Detroit Det., kept handgun defensive shooting fatality stats (identifying both the caliber & specific factory loads from both civilian and police encounters. He gathered police reports and autopsy results from around the US.

His extrapolated data showed the Federal .357B load,( SJHP 125 gr, 1450 fps ) to be the best "ONE SHOT STOPPER" load with an 85%+ ONS. 45 ACP was 2nd.

His data was focused on only one round being fired by the good guys. Granted back then, the .357 Magnum was the most used defensive round used by the populous and police.

Marshall realized that the data for the .357 was skewed due to its popularity, so he worked up the percentage data and wasn't surprised that the Fed .357B was found to be the best stopping round due to its high use by metro PDs, Sheriffs, State Police and civilians in areas with the highest rate of encounters. These areas weren't necessarily areas with the highest crime rate.

 

[Edmo]

From what I've seen, the development of defensive carry ammo over the last 20 or so years has really advanced terminal ballistics of the handgun round. This is obviously due to several factors.

One key factor is the FBI's standards for penetration and expansion. We now have a sanctioned yardstick to measure terminal performance.

Another big driving factor is the huge increase in civilian carry and interest in "defensive ammo" by the civilian market. Money talks and we have all dumped our share into the latest defensive ammo designs. Ammo manufacturers have answered and given us better and better rounds. Capitalism apparently works!

Defensive ammo is much more reliable and effective than ever before. All calibers have benefitted from these advances, however the gain hasn't been equal among all of the calibers.

I would suggest former "marginal" performance calibers such as standard pressure 9mm, 38 Special (out of a snubby), and 380 ACP have likely gained more than the "proven" defensive calibers of the past. I now own and often carry 9mm autos when 20 years ago I would scoff at the idea. The days of "the caliber has to start with a 4" are gone from my carry routine.

Now to short barreled 357s... I own a S&W 640 Pro in 357 which is a five shot J-frame with a 2.75" barrel. It is a handful with 357 rounds producing a lot of recoil, flash, and blast. With 38 Special +P ammo it is very manageable.

That same 357 round fired in my 6" 686 is easy to control, has low flash, and has quite a bit more velocity than when fired through my snubby. For the average 357 Magnun 125 grain JHP I get between 1250-1300 FPS in the snubby while the 6" 686 velocities are approaching 1500 FPS.

Many will say a 4" barrel is as short as you want to go in 357. Below that length some of your extra performance is burned up in the fireball off the nose. However, even in a snubby, 357 rounds will produce higher velocities than 38 Specials. The increase in velocity (read performance) is just not as big as with longer barrels.

What is the break even point? It all depends on you the shooter. For me, I carry +P 38 Special rounds in my 357 Magnum snubby.

Edmo

 

[Biggfoot44]

Line of reasoning #1 - .357 Mag indeed is and remains the !2( *Best* . Within the paarameters of full power 125grJHP from 4in or longer bbl. Shorten the bbl , or medium recoil loads , and performance drops to "only" * plenty darn good * .( Not abstractly poor performance , but similar to other decent cals & loads ).

Line of reasoning #2 - Doesn't make a lot of difference ( so long as cal is resonably suitable ) . In my mind , I break things down into two broad catagories : Reasonably Adaquate , and Plenty Darn Potent.

Think .38+P and std vel 9mm for Reasonably adaaquate.

Depending on specific loads , 9mm+P+, .357Sig , .40, .45acp , and the various big bore revolvers greatly overlap . ( Again presuming a reasonably suitable defensive load.)

The differences within each catagory not worth loosing sleep over. Pick what you can shoot well. Or to meet any actual or percieved aadditional requirements ( reduced penetration , extra penetration, dual purpose use for large animals , long range trajectory , whatever).

The best of defensive ammo from say 30yrs ago remains great stuff. Modern super premium defensive ammo is consistant in all of it being at least decent. In the old days some was great , some terriable.[ Cynically I will point out some of it is just as effective as the old school , but costs 2-3 times as much.]