Interesting Book About Snubby Concealed Carry Use

[Harrychristopher]

I have been carrying a small Sig semi-auto as my daily CC tool. My wife is fast approaching retirement and has expressed an interest in starting to conceal carry herself. I suggested she try shooting my Sig auto but she felt more comfortable with a revolver genre. She was brought up shooting by her late father who was a career military professional (WW2, Korea and 3 tours of Vietnam) so she has a passing familiarity with handguns.

I spoke to the gentleman at the gun store where I do business about my wife's decision to look for a revolver to carry and he immediately suggested a SW Performance Center 642 Enhanced Action .38 Special +P snubby as a possible choice for her to consider. I was impressed with the double action trigger smoothness and pull weight and thought that it would make a viable candidate for her consideration when she had a free moment to look at the gun.

Now that I have retired I try to get to the range at least once a week to practice with the semi-autos that I seem to have developed a preference for. A few weeks ago I was shooting my Sig 1911 Ultra Compact 9 mm and found my hands so frozen by the windchill that I had to sit in the car and warm myself up so my hands would actually work again.

While sitting in the car I recalled that my wife's choice of a revolver over an auto was due to her thought that in a moment of extremis all she wanted to do was present, aim and fire the gun without having to be involved in manipulation of the various controls an auto has. She said her main concern was simple effectiveness of operational response. I pondered this point of view as I addressed the problem of my fingers being so cold that I could not actuate the 1911 slide release and her concern made even more sense to me.

Upon regaining use of my fingers I left the range and drove back to the gun store to take another look at the 642. I was so suitably impressed with it that I bought it with the idea of testing it out as a possible choice for her as well as a replacement for the current little Sig that I was carrying.

I have been researching the idea of a snubby for CC use and during this process I came upon reference to a book written by Mr. Ed Lovette titled The Snubby Revolver: The ECQ, Backup and Concealed Carry Standard. The revised and updated addition was printed in 2007 by Paladin Press which I believe went out of business in 2017. Used copies sell for $89 to $110 on the internet but I was able to find an available PDF copy which I read last night.

Mr. Lovette was a Captain in the Army Special Forces, a 10 year LEO and a Paramilitary Officer employed by the CIA. I had read an interview written about him and found his thoughts about addressing the challenge of personal security to be very sound and valuable. The interview is available on the Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network Inc. site in their April 2019 edition.

I have been reading a great deal about snubby employment for self-defense of late and found this book to be well worth the time to study what the author has to say regarding this area of interest.

Harry

 

[robertrwalsh]

There is much to be said for the revolver for self defense for the private citizen.

 

[Harrychristopher]

There is a certain degree of irony at play here in that back in the 70s I carried a SW 6 shot revolver on a daily basis as part of my employment responsibilities and did not think the lack of 15 rounds of ammunition was a particular handicap to my efforts to survive on the urban streets. The 5 round capacity of the 642 combined with an evolving situational awareness and understanding of just what the real risks entail strike me as a reasonable approach to the subject of self-defense in today's society.

Someone once asked me how I proposed to address the question of a potential lethal force threat. I said with a straight face that it was simple: my wife would hold them off and I would go for help. The person who asked the question walked away shaking their head and looking for a safe place to pet a puppy and have a hot cup of cocoa. I yelled after them that since this protocol has worked for going on 44 years of marriage why should I change it now? After all I am an old man and we are said to be interested in simplifying life at this stage and not making it more complicated.

 

[Jessie]

How well does she tolerate recoil? The 642 will have some with a strong defense load.
As to ease of use the revolver is fine. So is the Sig 365, Beretta .32 Tomcat and some others that are small, light and maybe better on recoil.
I remembered the S&W Terrier in .38 S&W. I have one and like it. With Buffalo Bore it will suffice for close SD.

 

[dr. mordo]

I HIGHLY recommend you check out a LCR327. It's the perfect gun for someone who hasn't shot much or is recoil averse, because it uses any .32 variant of ammo (even the semi-rimmed.32 ACP supposedly). I'd start her off with .32 Long (Fiocci is fairly cheap and available if you order online), they try .32 H&R, then maybe full tilt .327 Mag if she does well with that. If all else fails you could even fall back to .32 Short for training. The .327 round is a monster. Anyone in front of a firing 327 is going to rethink their life choices if just from the blast and noise. That said, it's far more manageable to the shooter than .357 and feels more like shooting .38 SPL in an airweight. A bonus is the smaller diameter round means Ruger can fit a 6th round in a J frame cylinder.

I own several S&W and other brand J frame revolvers, but IMO the LCR327 is the perfect gun for your situation. After its broken in, the trigger pull is very light and the grip is well designed to absorb some recoil; LCR .22s have a surprisingly heavy trigger - meanwhile the 327 trigger is lighter than almost any other stock DAO revolver. And like I said, it's the most ammo flexible gun I have ever seen; 32 Long feels like .22 in this gun.

An 3" SP101 or GP100 in 327 would be even better for recoil, but would certainly need some trigger and spring tuning to be as light in DA, and they are slightly more expensive than the LCR (see below).

The only downside is they are spendy - I paid $500 at my LGS well over a year ago; prices have climbed recently and they are $539+transfer fee at Buds. Not cheap, but that is one gun I don't think I'll ever sell. In 20 years when my arthritis is in full bloom, I have a feeling that LCR327 will be my primary CCW.

BTW: Lucky Gunner recently ran gel tests of the common 327 MAG carry loads, and the results were impressive.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/pocket-pistol-caliber-gel-test-results/

 

[Harrychristopher]

She has a SW Victory model .38 Spl. that she had fired a lot and was very partial to back in the day. She also owned a Sp101 in .38 Spl. that was controllable for her. For autos I have the SIG 238, 1911 UC 9 mm and 226 Legion that she can try in the auto field and also the GP100 and the 642 in the revolver field.

We have a horse at the residence and between barn chores and 30 years of riding a 1200 pound beast that stands 5 feet tall at his back she has developed much more arm strength than the average small 65 year old woman has.

I will offer her the opportunity to try shooting the resident house fire arms and if she does not find anything that she likes I will try to find a rental range here in the People's Republic where she can try different guns that catch her eye.

I had initially thought that something along the lines of the Sig 238 would be a possibility for her but she is more comfortable with the revolver than the auto. Once she retires we will be able to return to shooting together at the range which I am looking forward to very much. I realize that I am very fortunate to share life with a lady who fully supports my interest in shooting and am thankful for that state of affair.

 

[ContinentalOp]

I would agree that recoil in the 642 can be tough, but it also sounds like your wife has experience shooting DA revolvers, so that should help. So would getting grips that will fit her hands and carry method. There are some lighter recoiling loads available that can be explored. Many recommend the 148gr midrange wadcutter as a good low-recoil option, though I would qualify that with range testing as one brand I tried keyholed pretty badly in my 642.

A steel frame 640 might be a good compromise as it's compact enough for carry but heavy enough to make shooting a little easier.

As for Ed Lovette's book, it is definitely a worthwhile read for anyone who carries, or is interested in carrying, a snub revolver. I've read my copy several times. He wrote another book with Dave Spaulding, Defensive Living, which is also good and geared more for an overall approach to personal security. If you search the internet you can also find articles that he's written and he had a regular column in Combat Handguns magazine. My biggest regret was that I wasn't able to take a training course from him before he retired from teaching.

Another good author to check out is Grant Cunningham, who's written general purpose books for revolvers, as well as books focused on self defense applications for revolvers in general and snubs in particular. He also has a blog if you're interested in reading more articles from him.

 

[adwjc]

I second Continental Op's recommendation of Grant Cunningham, Grant's outlook and teaching style is practical, vs. the "tactical" stuff being promulgated by so many other instructors today.

Brings to mind the old saying " everything you need, nothing you don't."

 

[Harrychristopher]

I first became acquainted with the writings of Mr. Lovette in the April 2019 interview previously referenced. I read his Snubby book and was very impressed with the overall depth and breadth of his knowledge in this area. I have just started reading his Defensive Living book and while it is early days in that process I continue to find value in reading his thoughts on the finer points of the mechanics of taking responsibility for the safety of one's family and one's self.

I have 4 books authored by Mr. Cunningham, one on auto pistols and three on revolvers. I have found his thoughts in this field to be very enlightening and worthwhile. His books seem to combine a strong emphasis on the "when as well as the how" of both small arms and adversarial interpersonal interactions management when one discovers to their unmitigated joy and delight that they are suddenly in an imminent and unavoidable extremis situation. I enjoy reading his new articles on his web site and have found interesting new sources of information derived from mention in his articles.

As I enter the fall of my earthly existence I have been casting a glance, as many who attain this age tend to do, in a backward direction of all that has gone before. In retrospect I find my increased desire to get up to speed on the current state of the concealed carry field to be rather ironic. Back in the day, way back, I found myself in the position of leading armed men into adventurous circumstances with uncertain outcomes as the direct result of a misspent youth.

We were issued SW 6 shot revolvers and Remington 870 pump shotguns and admonished to try and avoid conducting ourselves in such a manner on the street that we would become the lead item on the local news broadcast, and oh, by the way, don't shoot your eye out. The 70s truly were a much different time than we find ourselves inhabiting today.

The irony is I am no longer operating in a high risk employment environment and have not done so for many decades but my interest in teaching myself the finer points of the concealed carrying field is stronger now than it was at that time. Perhaps with the passing of time and more life experiences I have finally come to develop a finer grain appreciation for the depth and breath of just how much I really don't know about the subtleties of the field under research. Both Mr. Lovette and Mr. Cunningham's articles have served to shine a bright light and dispel the shadows on this area of interest that I have found to be quite enjoyable to explore.

I shot the 642 for the first time last Sunday. I have not fired a snub nose revolver in at least 25 years as my interest during that interval was in my GP 100 and various auto pistols. After 50 rounds of practice ammunition and 5 rounds of carry ammunition I arrived at the conclusion that the Pachmayr Renegade wooden stocks that I had installed on the revolver at the time of purchase were just too small for my large paws. I ordered a set of Hogue 60000 mono-grips that were installed last night and when the rain and snow stop I will return to the range to try them out.

The Hogues would appear at first glance to provide a larger surface for my hand to grasp onto and I suspect that the increased ability in this area will translate into better overall management of the snubby as well as increased recoil control. During the course of a class both my wife and I attended many years ago she shot everything from .22 caliber thru .44 magnum caliber and did not evinced any handgun control issues. I initially suspect that if her hand fits comfortably on the PC 642 Enhanced Action that I purchased then she will likely be fine pursuant to the management of that revolver.

I have a dear friend that I have grown up with over the course of the last 50 years. He went on to become a university professor and I went on not to. He lives in a notably large city in another state known for its liberal outlook on life and I live in the western part of a People's Republic where the industrial level ongoing production of a continuing crop of entitled snowflakes is a distinct point of civic pride.

We were conversing recently and the subject of both my research into my newly found interest in the concealed carry field as well as my now carrying as soon as my trousers are installed on a daily basis arose. He inquired as to why I felt the need to arm myself and why my wife is going to do so as well.

I gently brought to his attention that I live in a semi-rural area of the Republic that has been long known as a main North/South and East/West road network for the transportation of illicit narcotics to other states. Recently it was brought to my attention that there was rumor that the specter of meth labs has arrived in our bucolic little town along with all the unpleasantness that goes along with this regrettable state of affair.

Several years ago a woman was murdered and her body was left with her feet sticking up in the air inside her car at the local Walmart and nobody noticed this terrible incident for 3 days while walking by the car. Unbelievable does not even begin to adequately describe the utter feeling of disgust that decent people felt about this tragic occurrence.

We reside 30 minutes drive from the third largest city in the Republic where shootings and stabbings have now become so prevalent on a daily basis that media reports of same essentially elicit nothing more than a bored indifferent yawn from the populous at large. It is news when a day goes by and there are no reports of this sort of crime. The result of this reality strikes me as breeding a dangerously complacent attitude on the part of many denizens of this area who honesty believe that addressing their personal well being and that of their families is somebody else's responsibility and has nothing to do with them.

Any individual who freely chooses to engage in the lawful concealed carry of a firearm grasps to their breast a serious and all encompassing choice to take into account the full panoply of all that decision entails and recognize their moral and legal responsibility in this matter on a daily basis. Those who adhere to the snowflake mantra that addressing criminal threats is not their affair nor worthy of their consideration will eventually discover the reality of becoming a police blotter entry in their local media outlet a lot sooner than they might have otherwise had reason to expect.

My friend and I have had several occasions where we literally had to fight for our very lives in the ocean and other notable bodies of water, ah the joyous memories of youth, and this has served to forge a deep and abiding respectful bond that is now entering its 51st year of existence. He firmly believes that most people are decent non-threatening souls and sees no need to overly worry about threat assessments. I, on the other hand, believe that while his immediate area of daily living may in fact be inhabited by these Mr. Rodgers clones I am rather skeptical that our area benefits from a quantifiable excess of these gentle folks.

I brought to his attention that having 3 cruisers provide police coverage for a town that is 56 square miles in size struck me as a rather daunting geographic challenge to even the most dedicated department. Living in this situation really does give meaning to the shop worn bromide that when seconds count the police are minutes away and there is absolutely nothing that the department can realistically do to change the on the ground reality.

Mr. Cunningham wrote an article on his web site pointing out that in the cold surgical light of dawn it was demonstrably better for one to avoid placing themselves in a situation where the reality of a criminal assault was not necessarily an unknown outcome of being there in the first place. Situational awareness and situational avoidance can go a long way towards helping one mitigate the reality that by and large we live in unsettle times whose eventual outcome is not necessarily preordained to be in our favor as the issue strongly remains in doubt.

I view the choice to carry as being essentially Life's Spare Tire. Most individuals will not knowingly drive their motor cars without a spare tire on board even though they rarely expect to have to address the prospect of a flat tire on a dark rain strewn road in the dead of night. When that event does in fact occur that spare tire will be a welcome reminder that life can possess its own sense of humor at the most inconvenient of times.

If one has to face the soul crushing prospect of an armed confrontation possession of both the tool embodied in the firearm, and more importantly the knowledge embedded in one's intellect, will aid towards working toward a successful outcome in one's favor. If nothing else having both mind and gun at hand helps to address this old thought:

A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again.

Harry

 

[federali]

Women and Guns

I've trained many female agents before retirement. If she insists on putting the gun in her purse where it generally migrates to the bottom, she is better off without the gun.

We lost several guns as a result of a purse snatch (we're talking about New York City and high crime areas in the outer boroughs). One purse and revolver was lost when an unknown reached over the rest room stall door and grabbed the purse hanging from the hook on the door while the agent was doing her business.

Regardless of which J frame you select, standard velocity loads would suit her fine. I don't bother with +P ammo in any of my carry guns.

 

[Harrychristopher]

She has purchased a purse specifically design for the concealed carry of a handgun. She also practices a well developed sense of situational awareness with her purse as well as in general. You raise some valid concerns and I thank you for taking the time to bring them to my attention.

Harry

 

[BigSky!]

I've trained many female agents before retirement. If she insists on putting the gun in her purse where it generally migrates to the bottom, she is better off without the gun.

I'm not trying to argue, I'm just going to take the opposite position. In my opinion, having a difficult to draw weapon is much preferred to having no weapon available. The caveat to that is that it is CLEARLY preferable to have a carry method that makes the firearm easily and quickly accessible.

I do agree with the remainder of your post.

 

[white cloud]

Mr. Lovette's books are excellent. I think the points he raises are very relevant to the armed civilian.

My wife has a 642. I agree that these are not the most comfortable guns to shoot. What the 642 does provide is something my wife will have handy along with a simple manual of arms. I personally prefer steel frame snubs and will put up with extra weight.

 

[Harrychristopher]

My wife has a 642. I agree that these are not the most comfortable guns to shoot. What the 642 does provide is something my wife will have handy along with a simple manual of arms. I personally prefer steel frame snubs and will put up with extra weight.

I think that the smooth action of the Enhanced Performance Center 642 combined with its reasonable weight will be appreciated by my wife. She is much more at ease with the revolver manual of arms as opposed to the auto manual of arms.

After experimenting with several decent quality OWB holsters I have arrived at the conclusion that I much prefer a right front pocket carry of my 642. Even with the Hogue aftermarket grips it rides comfortably in a Desantis Nemesis holster in the pocket and conceals well with just a tee shirt covering the pocket opening. I guess that I just don't like the feeling of the OWB digging into my side and I seem to be able to more reliably present the gun from the pocket location as opposed to the OWB location.

 

[Mister X]

My wife isn’t much of a gun person, but she did carry for awhile when we lived in the city and she had to walk to her car after work when it was pretty late.

She purse carried a hammerless snub at my recommendation. She would have her hand on the gun in her purse as she walked to her car. Under those circumstances, there is no faster draw. She could even shoot through the purse if need be. With purse or pocket carry, there are certain trade-offs that can be of great advantage or a hindrance depending on the situation you’re using it. For my wife’s use, it was the best option IMO.

 

[Harrychristopher]

She purse carried a hammerless snub at my recommendation. She would have her hand on the gun in her purse as she walked to her car. Under those circumstances, there is no faster draw. She could even shoot through the purse if need be. With purse or pocket carry, there are certain trade-offs that can be of great advantage or a hindrance depending on the situation you’re using it. For my wife’s use, it was the best option IMO.

We will give this approach a try and make adjustments as required. In view of the tenor of our times her starting to carry is a prudent decision in our view.

Harry

 

[michpatriot]

Thank you so much for the heads up that there's a PDF to EDs Revolver knowledge..!!

 

[Harrychristopher]

Thank you so much for the heads up that there's a PDF to EDs Revolver knowledge..!!

I stumbled across the available PDF of Mr. Lovette's revised Snubby book at a site called EPDF.Pub.

I wish to caution you that I can not in anyway or manner vouch for the integrity of this web site. It was the only one I could find that did not require my signing up as a member or giving them an email.

Neither of the 2 security programs that I employ in an effort to try and avoid the unpleasantness of being hacked into by those industrious 5th graders sitting in their mother's basements was triggered by the site itself or the download. While I would like to think that it was a straight forward download with no evil pretensions on the part of the web site I can not guarantee that using it will be totally risk free for your computer. The risk and choice are yours to evaluate.

 

[mgriffin]

I HIGHLY recommend you check out a LCR327. It's the perfect gun for someone who hasn't shot much or is recoil averse, because it uses any .32 variant of ammo (even the semi-rimmed.32 ACP supposedly). I'd start her off with .32 Long (Fiocci is fairly cheap and available if you order online), they try .32 H&R, then maybe full tilt .327 Mag if she does well with that. If all else fails you could even fall back to .32 Short for training. The .327 round is a monster. Anyone in front of a firing 327 is going to rethink their life choices if just from the blast and noise. That said, it's far more manageable to the shooter than .357 and feels more like shooting .38 SPL in an airweight. A bonus is the smaller diameter round means Ruger can fit a 6th round in a J frame cylinder.

I own several S&W and other brand J frame revolvers, but IMO the LCR327 is the perfect gun for your situation. After its broken in, the trigger pull is very light and the grip is well designed to absorb some recoil; LCR .22s have a surprisingly heavy trigger - meanwhile the 327 trigger is lighter than almost any other stock DAO revolver. And like I said, it's the most ammo flexible gun I have ever seen; 32 Long feels like .22 in this gun.

An 3" SP101 or GP100 in 327 would be even better for recoil, but would certainly need some trigger and spring tuning to be as light in DA, and they are slightly more expensive than the LCR (see below).

The only downside is they are spendy - I paid $500 at my LGS well over a year ago; prices have climbed recently and they are $539+transfer fee at Buds. Not cheap, but that is one gun I don't think I'll ever sell. In 20 years when my arthritis is in full bloom, I have a feeling that LCR327 will be my primary CCW.

BTW: Lucky Gunner recently ran gel tests of the common 327 MAG carry loads, and the results were impressive.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/pocket-pistol-caliber-gel-test-results/

I wish S&W would start making a 6 shot .32 in a J frame again. I currently have a 431PD but would like a 432PD. Also because I love pocket carry. I would be all over it as I already have many holsters for S&W J frames.

 

[Fastbolt]

...
Another good author to check out is Grant Cunningham, who's written general purpose books for revolvers, as well as books focused on self defense applications for revolvers in general and snubs in particular. He also has a blog if you're interested in reading more articles from him.

Grant Cunningham is part of the staff of the snub-centric private membership website I'm with Roscoe -
About | I’m with ROSCOE

So is Michael de Bethencourt & Claude Werner.

It's a very reasonably priced membership, running $40 for a 2 year membership, and it offers snub revolver-related training & historical articles, forums, electronic and hardcopy newsletters, discounts of snub related equipment and promotes area shooting matches (where possible).

Another interesting booklet that snub shooters might appreciate owning is Michael de Bethencourt's Thirty Eight Straight Tips for Better Snub Shooting. Last time I looked a revised (color pics, too) version was part of the membership package of joining I'm with Roscoe, but they apparently sell out pretty quickly, from what I understand. I have both the older black & white and the newer revised color version.