Interesting story about police m&p pistol contract

[TexasRaider]

Boy, if care isn't taken this could easily turn into a bashing of Brand X, which isn't what I'm aiming for with this post.

I had a Glock at one time, the recoil spring guide rod shattered in less than 100 rounds. The front sight looked as fragile as an egg shell, the grip angle seemed to built for some species off of Star Trek, not humans, and the trigger reset is the absolute worst I've ever felt while shooting a pistol, and that includes a cheap Llama 1911 knock off. Glock bashing? No, just a few facts cocktailed with a few opinions.

I have to agree with the above poster who said that Glock has, in many ways, become a success of marketing and myth, they are hardly 'perfection' in any given way, but then again neither is any other maker. He's right, in this day an age with CAD design and technology, major weapons makers are pretty much equal in most terms of reliability and don't make pure junk. The differences are more opinion and passion than any real fact.

But prevailing opinion is blowing the Striker Fired Pistol (SFP) direction, and I have no doubt Smith's aim with the M&P was to try to out-Glock Glock. I seem to remember their first attempt at that was the disastrous Sigma, which which went nowhere fast, was a direct copyright infringement and got them sued by Glock (weren't we just talking about S&W's skeevy business practices?)

Maybe S&W is so hungry to compete with Glock they're letting all other concerns slip past the top of the priority list. Frankly, playing the game by Glock's rules by trying to be another Glock is already raising the white flag because you've admitted in a way they're setting the standard.

It's my personal opinion that all SFP in general are a solution in search of a problem. They are wildly popular in LEO and CCW circles because, well because they are said to be. Call me a hater if you have to, but SFP's are the Kardashians of the handgun world...they're famous for being famous. There is no 'there' there.

A finely tuned 1911-A1, Browning Hi-Power, settled in Sig P226 or P229 DAK, S&W 3rd Gen 9mm or even a Smith 19-5 2 1/2" are much better gunfighting pistols to me than any black soap bar plastic fantastic crunchenticker SFP.

Maybe these department's FI's are getting myopic, drinking too quickly from the Kool-Aid and rushing into the SFP world without wringing them out a bit more. I know Smith tries to use the old 'Made in the USA' chestnut to lure depts. away from those 'furriner' Eurotrash guns. But just because it's an SFP, cheap and made in Springfield doesn't make it the best option. Just as it is that because a pistol comes from the land of Biergartens doesn't prove it's made of powdered unicorn horn and leprechaun gold dust, either.

I assume that if any error was made on behalf of the very large agencies, it was that the testing wasn't brutal enough or didn't last long enough. But when a huge conglomerate is telling you that they'll sell you brand new pistols for around $250 each and will pay you full retail for your old pistols, maybe they do get swayed a bit. Or maybe their test guns don't come from the same batch as the issues guns...

The only for sure thing is that's it's embarrassing as hell to for the director of a large agency to have to backpedal and say 'Whoa, wait, we were wrong. Guns are going back." That really makes them look incompetent - one wonders if that isn't an element of the sales strategy..."Once we get the contract, they'll be too embarrassed to admit failure and drop our product, then we can work out the bugs as we go!"

Clearly, Texas and Iowa aren't afraid to change course when need be.


.

 

[ATF]

There's another aspect to this: Glock has been doing polymer pistols since 1982 and the design build process started in 1979. The M&P came out in 2005. Additionally, the environmental regs are much tougher in the U. S. versus other regions of the world ergo metal finishing techniques.

Look I'm not getting on your case here just giving you some information but firstly Glock didn't start officially selling to the US until 1985 although guns may have been unofficially sold earlier. The US does not have a proof house which has been traditionally used in Europe. Every barrel has to be sent to an individual proof house to independently test and confirm it's safety. The US relies on manufacturers for this test which is more of a trust issue. Earlier US firearms do have proof marks from the manufacturers, modern ones don't.

To assume metal finishing techniques are superior in the US to the rest of the World is incorrect. Many countries exceed the US in manufacturing technology and tolerances. Japan is a prime example and so is Germany. Both these countries have a long history or metalworking. You won't get a better knife than a Japanese or German one.

I'm not a Glock fan and love the M&P series and undoubtedly S&W make the best revolvers period and Glock only make basically one gun. S&W are very diversified making many different firearms and are a profitable company. The M&P handgun series is only part of their organization. Look at H&K they make real quality polymer handguns, maybe too good because now they are rumored to have financial problems. Anyway just passing on some info. Look at the proof marks

 

[Freedom's Teeth]

The SFP and the 1911 appeal to me for the same reason: One trigger pull. I believe it's easier to train a lady to shoot an SFP w/o manual safety due to the need for less manipulation of the firearm. If all DA/SA's were as buttery smooth as Sigs, my opinion may be different.

S&W's current issues are indicative of all manufacturing firms----the rush to market to gain market share. Our company will can those who purposely rush products to market when they know more work needs to be done. It's an top down directive. The long term credibility destruction of rushing to market far outweighs the short term benefits.

I contend there is more to Glock than mystique. For what you pay, you get a good value with excellent support and parts availability. For the most part, you can abuse one with little worry about rust. Most issue weapons don't come with those stupid plastic sights either.

I've never had an issue with several Glocks ever. I cannot say that for Smith and Wesson or Sig Sauer. I've had to send NIB pistols back after less than a box of shells. Still the sentimental part of me wants to trust Smith and Wesson.

There is merit to what IA and TX did. Smith can use these as a positive or a negative. The ball is in their court.

 

[amd6547]

I guess I'm one of the lucky Glock guys. My G17 and G26 have been completely faultless in every regard. They have fed every round loaded in the magazine, and ejected every empty case...ejected away from my head, even.
I hit what I'm aiming at out to 100yds, and do it with the widely criticized OEM plastic sights.
I like everything about the trigger, including the reset.
The grip feels great to me, and Glocks point very naturally for me...but then, my TT33 Tokarev, who's grip angle couldn't be more different, points great for me too.
After years of carrying various Browning HiPowers, as well as most other major types, the G26 in particular became my favorite 9mm.
Like I said, I guess I'm just lucky

 

[Rastoff]

Many times our experiences on the range are nothing like Military or LEO range time. I would say most of the time.

I don't understand, what's the difference? In my experience, my own range time is much more stringent than what I saw in the military.

I guess I'm one of the lucky Glock guys.

Not lucky, normal. For every complaint we read on forums like this, there are hundreds, maybe thousands, of users who've never (really never) experienced a problem.

Glock makes good guns. Just like any manufacturer, they make the highest quality they can while using the most inexpensive parts and processes. Thus, they cut corners by using plastic guide rods and sights. That doesn't make them bad guns. The vast majority of users don't experience much trouble.

I owned 2 Glocks. No trouble with mine whatsoever. Alas, I only put about 500 rounds through one and maybe 250 through the other. That's not enough to say they were good or bad.

I've just seen more people have trouble with Glocks than other guns in my classes and other classes I've been to.

 

[Freedom's Teeth]

I am reasonably sure that the tennifer process used in Europe which is arguably a superior method generates cyanide and is not allowed by the EPA thereby hamstringing American manufacturers.

Even if Glock did not start marking in the U. S. until 1985, they had 20 years on the Smith and Wesson M&P line. I believe you will see the M&P line continue to improve. Sometimes it's the little things you learn along the way that make a big difference.

 

[CB3]

The article in the original post creates more doubt and confusion than it explains.

However, it appears the process of the acquisition is more in question than any attributes of the firearms. The mag disconnect feature offered by S&W (arguably a functional safety issue) is not offered by Glock. Rewriting a bid proposal to require a feature offered by S&W that eliminates a major vendor (Glock) could be suspect.

There is just not enough information in the article to substantiate the inference that there was something wrong with the S&W pistols. It is just as likely it was a potential (political) problem with the process.

Did S&W persuade Iowa to rewrite the requirements? Did Glock complain that rewriting the req's blew them out unfairly?

Guys, these kinds of contract questions come up all the time. The likelihood that this problem is related to substandard S&W product is about nil. This is internal and external commercial politicking, pure and simple, IMO. Manufacturer bashing about products misses the point--it's the guys in the suits and uniforms, not at the CAD or CNC machines.

 

[Whitwabit]

is there enough room for the cartridge to flip 180 degrees between the mag and the top of the slide, the only way I can see that to happen is if the slide is open or partially opened to allow the length to do a 180 ..

noticed in the articles written that the malfunctions were all with new officers in training .. no mention of older officers having any trouble .

could this be caused by improper holding the pistol and even possibly improper training ?

 

[Sgt.Peck]

I'm not saying he's lying but maybe he should have done a little more detective work and found the real problem. Which was more than likely officers inserting cartridges the wrong way in mags either ignorantly or purposely for an ulterior motive. Some mags will accept backwards bullets others won't. I don't have a Glock so I can't try it but maybe it stems from this H&K and Backwards Bullets: The Real Story - The Firearm Blog

More detective work? Besides actually being there, I also spoke with the three armorers we have, who reported and documented repeat, numerous failures. That, and the fact that the problem isn't isolated to Wichita.

To suggest our officer's intentionally load their weapons incorrectly due an "ulterior motive" is insulting! The 300 officers that were carrying the M&P all chose to carry it. They were the ones that were most disappointed with the magazine failures.

Anyway, it's a moot point now. The entire 625 member agency has been 100% Glock for the past few years and no more problems of this nature.

 

[ATF]

More detective work? Besides actually being there, I also spoke with the three armorers we have, who reported and documented repeat, numerous failures. That, and the fact that the problem isn't isolated to Wichita.

To suggest our officer's intentionally load their weapons incorrectly due an "ulterior motive" is insulting! The 300 officers that were carrying the M&P all chose to carry it. They were the ones that were most disappointed with the magazine failures.

Anyway, it's a moot point now. The entire 625 member agency has been 100% Glock for the past few years and no more problems of this nature.

I have scoured the internet and there is no evidence of cartridges flipping in any gun except for this one which is most probably operator error and involves a Glock First time for everything...bullet backwards - AR15.Com Archive
And the example I quoted where a photographer for H&K inserted the cartridges backwards. If the M&P was capable of flipping rounds in the mag it would be a catastrophic failure and all M&P's would be recalled.

So I call hogwash

 

[Arik]

Look what the highway boys have to deal with in Florida.
.45 GAP Gen4 Glocks and the Florida Highway Patrol

Florida State Police sound a lot like Pa state police. The went from revolvers to Beretta 40s&w. Then to Glock 36 in 45GAP. Had that for a number of years until switching to Glock 21 in 45acp. I assume because of the cost of ammo adding up. Recently some officers have reported problems with mags randomly ejecting on the new Glock 21. This is,a rather weird problem that couldn't be pinned down. The newer models went to the newer officers. The older models didn't have this problem and the problem seemed random with the new models. It could be some fluke somewhere in the manufacturing process or it could be that the officers were accidentally bumping the mag release. Either way, the PSP nor Glock could figure out what's happening so PSP canceled the contract and went with the new Sig P227 45acp. Shortly after, in one of the training classes for the new gun, a firearms instructor accidentally shot and killed a officer. (Yes a ND happened with a DA handgun and not a Glock). Now they may be rethinking the 227 but at this point it looks like it's staying.

There's a lot of reasons why departments change firearms. Sometimes it's a legitimate reason like all of a sudden terrible QC. Other times it's random. The new chief may think the guns are unsafe or he's one of those that has to try different things or he got bribed or he has a bias towards a certain style.

In the time that PSP went through 4 handguns Philadelphia Police have been happily chugging along with the Glock 17 since 1989. In the last few years officers have been allowed to choose a 40s&w or 45acp Glock but out of their own pocket.

 

[Freedom's Teeth]

Competent organizations have ample qualified personnel on hand for multiple days during any platform transition or failure will ensue.

 

[Officerblue]

Sig and Glock are very competitive in the LE market and will try anything to get ahead but that's not personal it's just business. Cops should buy their own guns IMHO so they can get what suits them.

From a tactical standpoint having the same gun you have the same magazines. All the officers in that department will be proficient with that firearm. If you're out of ammo and you need a magazine your partner can slide you one.

 

[handgunner356]

If you're proficient with your firearm you can give your mags to those who are not.

 

[Sgt.Peck]

I have scoured the internet and there is no evidence of cartridges flipping in any gun except for this one which is most probably operator error and involves a Glock First time for everything...bullet backwards - AR15.Com Archive
And the example I quoted where a photographer for H&K inserted the cartridges backwards. If the M&P was capable of flipping rounds in the mag it would be a catastrophic failure and all M&P's would be recalled.

So I call hogwash

The lack of articles are most likely do to some type of agreements between agency and manufacturer. Agencies don't normally have press conferences on the matter. After retiring recently after thirty one years with my agency, I'm not prone to, or known to make things up. I have nothing to gain by doing so. There have been other examples of problems with the M&P right here on this forum. But it was the magazine failure that doomed the M&P for Wichita. The decision wasn't made based on politics. Feel free to contact our range. I assume they are allowed to give a response to inquiries of this nature. Unless there is some legal reason not to that I'm unaware of. Anyway, I do find it a little disappointing that given my profile you find my account not credible.

 

[Freedom's Teeth]

Internetus Quarterbackus Non Carborundum

Don't let the internet quarterbacks get you down.

 

[Doug M.]

The lack of articles are most likely do to some type of agreements between agency and manufacturer. ... Anyway, I do find it a little disappointing that given my profile you find my account not credible.

*
Unless there is a reason to make it public, such as persuading the holders of purse strings that there is a problem that needs to be addressed right away, most command officers would rather hide these things than address them. Very few are savvy about firearms and I see reports regularly on serious forums with a different mindset than here about various issues with firearms that simply don't make the mainstream forums such as this one.

And you should be even more insulted that someone would find ARFcom credible at all, and more so than you. Every time I have for some reason been persuaded to go read something there, I lost more IQ points than I would if Billy Madison were pontificating.

 

[BudMan5]

Long time member but I don't post often. I am here because I actually learn something new every time I log on.

Concerning the need or necessity of magazine disconnects. I am an NRA pistol instructor but more importantly I am also a certified (IL) police firearms instructor, a retired Police Chief and a retired Army Infantry senior NCO.

I came home from Vietnam and became a cop in 1969. At that period, my department required you to purchase your own weapons and the most popular (and my choice) was the S&W Model 19. A couple of years later that evolved into the Model 66. I spent most of my first half of my LEO career in a single man patrol car. There were many times that i responded to calls that had the potential for a physical confrontation, i.e.domestic assaults and bar fights. Most of us routinely carried an empty chamber in the first round up because our greatest fear was being in a fist fight and losing control of your revolver. That was to give you a chance to retrieve your backup pistol or run, whatever was your only option.

Later, after the IL State Police changed to the S&W Model 39. semi-autos became all the rage. The same situation though was still a problem. What to do while involved in a fistfight when the BG was attempting to gain control of your pistol. Believe me, the magazine disconnect was very much appreciated.

To demonstrate that retention holster are NOT a solution as has been suggested, here's a current article that shows 51 LEOs were shot with their own guns between 200-2010:

57 Police Officers Fatally Shot by 'Unarmed' Suspects Since 2000 - Breitbart

Also remember the fact that the police officer in Ferguson MO was fighting for control of his weapon while he was still in his patrol car.

Most cops, especially those on their own, who are involved in a physical battle to affect an arrest know that they are really in a life or death struggle. They are literally fighting for their lives because if they lose, they have lost control of their weapon and potentially, will lose their life.

Until you have experienced that actually occurrence, you cannot really appreciate how important that anything that you can do to disable your weapon can be.

I stress this reality to all of the students that I teach in concealed carry classes also.

One last point on the dependability of retention holsters. When you have a few moments, go on YouTube and enter "retention holster review" and see how many videos explain in great detail on how to release a pistol from every single type of retention holster made.

Don't think for a moment that the many of the BGs haven't done the same.

 

[TexasRaider]

Every time I have for some reason been persuaded to go read something there, I lost more IQ points than I would if Billy Madison were pontificating.

So, you're saying that Smith M&P, like a puppy, was lost in the woods and nobody, especially law enforcement procurement managers, knew where to find 'em? Oh, except that the puppy was a only a dog...but industry, my friends, that was a revolution....

 

[ATF]

There is absolutely no evidence of bullets flipping in mags on ANY gun so I will remain Agnostic until facts prove otherwise.