Irate with Smith & Wesson. Done with them.

[snowman.45]

The Glock is only .24 inches wider. Not going to notice that.

Really? There is a reason folks want the Shield and similar guns that are 1" or less in width; they are easier to conceal. I've carried Glocks and full-size M&Ps. As you pointed out, the difference in width is .24 inch. That's almost a quarter of an inch. It does make a difference to those looking for the concealment capabilities of the gun.

Don't get me wrong; there are good reasons to carry a G26 or G27, or an M&P 9C or 40C, and clothing and climate have a lot to do with it. But, when I'm in summer clothing, I look for every concealment advantage I can get.

 

[Hillbilly77]

I was gonna throw in my 2 cents, but it appears that you guys all have this pissing-match well under control.

Moving along.....

 

[Kanewpadle]

Personal opinions aside, the fact is that every manufacturer has their problems. And sometimes people fall through the cracks. It shouldn't happen but it does. It doesn't happen intentionally.

To expect perfection and not get it is no reason to complain or condemn them. People expect perfection from companies but in reality those people expect the employees of those companies to be perfect. Never happen. Mistakes happen in every workplace.

How a company or person handles those mistakes is what really counts.

Be patient and see what happens. I'm sure you will get your gun back in perfect working order.

 

[G-Mac]

The Glock is only .24 inches wider. Not going to notice that.

That's 1/100" shy of a quarter inch. Most people would notice if their handgun was suddenly 1/4" fatter.

Just sayin'....

Apologies to snowman.45....I read your post after I posted mine. I basically repeated your observations on size....

 

[TahoeDust]

The Glock is only .24 inches wider. Not going to notice that.

Yeah I mean, that's only ~25%....

 

[jepkr]

I WOULD BE VERY GLAD TO TAKE THAT PIECE OF JUNK OFF YOUR HANDS. Get in touch with me

 

[GKC]

I've owned S&W products for many years, as well as many other brands, and I've never had to send one of the S&Ws back for service. I have called S&W CS a few times, asking about purchasing parts like magazine base plates, for example, and I've always been told they would just send them to me for free...and they always did.

My one problem with S&W was when the M&P rebates were offered. I purchased several M&Ps during that time period, and sent in my rebate forms, electing to get the magazines. When people started getting their magazines long after I sent my forms in, I started calling S&W...this went on for close to ONE YEAR! I was given so many excuses (tracking issues, mags out of stock, etc) and I talked to many managers, who made many promises...but still, no mags. I tried in vain to reach any of the executives, but could not find their contact information. Finally, during one search on the internet, I found the contact info for the VP of Finance of the holding company, and I figured I'd give it a shot. I sent her an e-mail, not expecting much, but she responded the next day. She promised to have the head of customer service contact me, and he did. He apologized profusely, and promised to send my mags personally...which he did, plus two extra ones.

That responsiveness was impressive, but it should not have ever been necessary. I don't know why one of the CS managers I spoke to didn't walk over to the assembly lines, pull some mags out of the stock they use for new pistols, and send them to me.

For some reason, with many large companies (and the larger they are, the worse it is) CS generally goes really well, but when there is a problem it seems to be a complete fail. Where I fault S&W is that they need to make their executives accessible to customers who need help. I know that the CEO won't take calls personally, but he could have a designated rep(s) to field customer complaints and deal with them. I worked for an enormous Fortune 100 telecommunications company, and believe me, when we got an executive complaint, we gave it top priority.

Still, I like the quality of S&W firearms. The revolvers may not be the same guns that were made in 1960 or 1970, but still they are good guns. S&W polymer pistols are some of the best on the market, IMO...I'd take an M&P over an H&K any day (and yes, I have owned an H&K.) It's too bad that S&W doesn't make the 3rd Generation metal framed pistols anymore, but that doesn't mean their current products are bad. I can't think of another gun I'd rather have (of current production) over an M&P...not Glock, not Ruger, not XDm, and so on. I don't consider myself a "S&W fan boy" because I don't think they are perfect...but I just prefer them to other polymer guns, for ME.

I can't think of any company that is perfect, or make a perfect product. It certainly isn't Glock...but one thing about Glock that S&W could take a lesson from, and that is making parts available. It's ridiculous to have to send a gun in to have a striker replaced. Still, given my overall experience with S&W, despite some frustrations, they still are the company whose products I most like to buy.

 

[Fastbolt]

I don't often bother to browse thread topics that obviously involve disgruntled owners.

However, I can certainly empathize with a reasonable amount of frustration when someone gets something that requires manufacturer attention so soon after buying it. BTDT.

The thing is that some folks often seem to have unreasonable expectations when it comes to huge companies and customer service efforts.

Even discounting the huge size of the company, and their recent problems with a new computer system, they seem to have made a sincere effort to resolve this recently discovered apparent molding problem with the vendor-supplied plastic trigger used on the Shield.

I mean, not only do they have one of the fastest selling subcompact single stack pistols on the market in current production, with all the demand issues that entails, but now they have to help owners identify whether a particular pistol requires a new trigger bar assembly, or do it for them, at no cost (free shipping & insurance both ways). Imagine the shipping/receiving nightmare that involves, all while the rest of their shipping & receiving business is continuing.

Now, I've had some opportunity to see how new firearms are shipped over the years that I've worked as a LE firearms armorer. I'm approaching the mid-20's in the number of armorer classes I've attended, with another recert (not S&W) scheduled within the month. Anyone who thinks all firearms companies don't have their own occasional issues with manufacturing, materials, vendors, production & assembly might not have bought enough guns.

I've got to restock my spare/repair parts for another brand of plastic pistol (other than S&W) due to having exhausted much of them. Other brands are having similar headaches with new guns.

 

[GKC]

I've got to restock my spare/repair parts for another brand of plastic pistol (other than S&W) due to having exhausted much of them. Other brands are having similar headaches with new guns.

I imagine the high demand is causing QC to suffer.

 

[NYHawk]

fallhunter,
That 1/4" difference is really quite large when talking about a grip. Have you held each of these side by side?

This is simply not true. Sure, some guns have had issues. The overwhelming majority that have politely asked about it have received quality help from this board. Does it really surprise you that S&W owners, on a S&W board, will take offense when someone comes here and just bashes S&W?


See, now here's where you lost me. Glock trigger is great? No, the Glock trigger has a ton of slack, creep and over travel. The M&P factory trigger isn't any better, but to say that the Glock is "great feeling" tells me you don't have much experience with triggers. But, you have 25 years of experience with guns so, you should have a lot of experience with triggers. That's why this is such a confusing statement.

fallhunter,
I'm sorry you had such a poor experience. However, I have to ask, what is your profession? Who do you work for? It just seems weird to me that you absolutely have to have this gun for work, but can send it in for repair without a back up. Do you just take vacation days while it's off for repair?

You just made my point genius. Because I find my Glock trigger very good and the S&W trigger is not to my liking, I'm wrong and your confused. I'd say 90% of M&P owners think the trigger is horrible and needs attention. I don't know about Glock owners, as I stated, I'm a newbie to Glock, but find the trigger, at least on my gun, better than expected. If you knew my history and my experience you'd be shocked. And yes, I am shocked I found the Glock trigger to my liking and better IMO to my M&P. We're on a S&W board and can have the ability to make issues know with Smith-Wesson, good and bad, and have changes made for the better. But with all these starry eyed excuses, that's not even a possibility.
And no, I'm not a Glock fanboy at all, but I don't bash the brand because I like another. Actually I am a Beretta "fanboy" and find Beretta far superior to both S&W and Glock but I don't jump all over someone when they complain about the brand. That doesn't make other brands inferior, just my opinion of the brand, if you can understand that.
Jumping all over the OP doesn't help. Just ignore these type of posts if you don't agree with the message but be understanding when someone really has a problem you can help him with. There are many posts in this thread that are helpful to others, not just the OP. Maybe S&W could learn from its customers on the board if people weren't being flamed and realize if people are not satisfied they might, just might have a valid point. That was my message.

 

[DocSunShine]

You just made my point genius. Because I find my Glock trigger very good and the S&W trigger is not to my liking, I'm wrong and your confused. I'd say 90% of M&P owners think the trigger is horrible and needs attention. I don't know about Glock owners, as I stated, I'm a newbie to Glock, but find the trigger, at least on my gun, better than expected. If you knew my history and my experience you'd be shocked. And yes, I am shocked I found the Glock trigger to my liking and better IMO to my M&P. We're on a S&W board and can have the ability to make issues know with Smith-Wesson, good and bad, and have changes made for the better. But with all these starry eyed excuses, that's not even a possibility.
And no, I'm not a Glock fanboy at all, but I don't bash the brand because I like another. Actually I am a Beretta "fanboy" and find Beretta far superior to both S&W and Glock but I don't jump all over someone when they complain about the brand. That doesn't make other brands inferior, just my opinion of the brand, if you can understand that.
Jumping all over the OP doesn't help. Just ignore these type of posts if you don't agree with the message but be understanding when someone really has a problem you can help him with. There are many posts in this thread that are helpful to others, not just the OP. Maybe S&W could learn from its customers on the board if people weren't being flamed and realize if people are not satisfied they might, just might have a valid point. That was my message.

Glock and current production M&P triggers are pretty close, but previously stock Glock triggers were better. Glock still has the goofy grip angle with hump, senseless finger grooves, but like the old m&p triggers it can be "fixed" to your liking.

The reason I won't buy a current Glock is because there are way too many brass to the face, erratic ejection and stovepipe issues with their current production guns. Brass to the eyeball or a stovepipe caused by weak/erratic-ejection are serious potential reliability issues. You could tinker and " fix" this problem but I'll pass. The worst part about the BTF issue is it RARELY rears it's ugly head out of the box and normally shows up after anywhere from 800-3,000 rounds. For your typical buyer who will probably never put 1,000 rounds through the gun in a lifetime it may not be a big deal, but to a serious shooter this is unacceptable, which is why you're seeing the big name instructors switching from Glock to M&P.

 

[Fastbolt]

I imagine the high demand is causing QC to suffer.

Some design changes & revisions, too. Sometimes revisions require revisions.

 

[fallhunter]

Hi
Its painfully obviouse to me the NYHawk and FallHunter are Glock fanboys (I own many glocks and like them alot)
But to trash S&W for a few minor issues with a few shields is crazy to me. Personally,I think glock trigger are horrible i alsway have my glocks worked on. Their customer service is OK, they take a very very long time for repairs. ( I live about 1hr and 30 min away from S&W so i am able to drop off my guns for repair, so i really cant bash glock to much there)

What it comes down to is what fits you and your needs, a gun is a tool to get a job done.
just my 2cents

Actually, I was anti-Glock before this. I was very uncomfortable with them, but with the new Gen4 Glock I can change the grip to make it better. I may even look at Beretta, or Springfield. Maybe Taurus. I am in love with the Taurus Slim I held today. and for the price.. Really hard to beat.

 

[fallhunter]

Glock and current production M&P triggers are pretty close, but previously stock Glock triggers were better. Glock still has the goofy grip angle with hump, senseless finger grooves, but like the old m&p triggers it can be "fixed" to your liking.

The reason I won't buy a current Glock is because there are way too many brass to the face, erratic ejection and stovepipe issues with their current production guns. Brass to the eyeball or a stovepipe caused by weak/erratic-ejection are serious potential reliability issues. You could tinker and " fix" this problem but I'll pass. The worst part about the BTF issue is it RARELY rears it's ugly head out of the box and normally shows up after anywhere from 800-3,000 rounds. For your typical buyer who will probably never put 1,000 rounds through the gun in a lifetime it may not be a big deal, but to a serious shooter this is unacceptable, which is why you're seeing the big name instructors switching from Glock to M&P.

I ask out of curiosity, is the stove pipe issue possibly due to grip issues.. Grip issues caused by the said angle? I am looking for a concealed carry piece here primary.

 

[fallhunter]

I WOULD BE VERY GLAD TO TAKE THAT PIECE OF JUNK OFF YOUR HANDS. Get in touch with me

As soon as it is back, it will be for sale. $300. I just dont feel like I can trust Smith & Wesson any longer.

 

[DocSunShine]

I ask out of curiosity, is the stove pipe issue possibly due to grip issues.. Grip issues caused by the said angle? I am looking for a concealed carry piece here primary.

No, the issues with Glock over the past 4 years are well documented. In fact there have been some serious shooters contact Glock because of flawed guns and have been told by Glock Customer Service they're "limp wristing" the gun. In reality a quality built gun will function even when intentionally limp wristed. In fact, I wouldn't carry a gun that malfunctioned on me when intentionally limpwristed. You should also note Glock often has customer's pay to ship the gun to Glock (very costly) and the guns often sit there for weeks to months and come back not fixed (go over to GlockTalk or M4Carbine and read some of the threads)

I will also note I love older Glocks (circa 2008 and previous) with serial numbers starting with L and earlier, they tend to be quaility built... But my point was the grass isn't always greener on the otherside. My Shield .40 has functioned flawless (like all my M&Ps) as well as my father's Shield .40 and the Shield .40s of several other guys I know who own them (popular gun among people I know). It sucks you got a lemon but it happens, I have no doubt Smith will make it right, but it's unfair to throw a tantrum because you haven't received the gun back within 2 weeks. As you should know the entire industry has been beyond busy over the past year especially give them time and your Shield will come back working well for you.

 

[DocSunShine]

And in case I misunderstood you, if you're asking if it is the grip angle causing issues with Glocks the answer is no. Grip angle is a personal preference and why some guys get grip reductions done. In reality the Gen4s helped reduce the hump which helped, but with a thumbs forward grip I don't notice much of a difference at the range, the gun points where my thumbs point. M&Ps are 1911 like with their grip angle (like most other semi auto handguns), Glock is the oddball in that they point high an you have to extend/over-extend your wrists a bit.

 

[Fastbolt]

I ask out of curiosity, is the stove pipe issue possibly due to grip issues.. Grip issues caused by the said angle? I am looking for a concealed carry piece here primary.

Grip technique and ammunition quality (power) can certainly introduce the potential for feeding, extraction & ejection problems.

The causes of empty case versus live-round "stovepipes" can vary, a bit, but grip and ammo related influences can sometimes be involved. Live round "stovepipes", especially with Glocks, can be caused by magazine lip dimension issues. Spread lips, caused by either manufacturing tolerance issues, or, by someone having tried to stuff too many rounds into a mag ("Hey, I got an extra round in my Glock mag!!!), may be involved.

While under & over-powered ammunition, as well as ammunition power variations, may cause some feeding stoppages and extraction/ejection malfunctions, more often than not, day in & day out, it can be found to be related to a shooter-related influence. Typically it's found to be something in an improperly firm grip, and/or an unlocked wrist.

Playing around with recoil spring assembly rates, as well as an occasional out-of-spec recoil spring assembly, may also be involved.

I recently had to resolve some rather drastic ejection inconsistencies with a guy's Gen4 G23. (All over the place, including into his face.) It had the current Gen4 G23 RSA (marked 0-3-3), but the old-style .40 ejector. I replaced the ejector with the new-style and the problematic ejection was resolved. It was the opinion of myself and another instructor who watched him shooting when he experienced an empty case stovepipe that a momentary inconsistency in his grip had occurred. (Interestingly enough, the shooter also agreed that his grip might have shifted for that shot, during that shot string.)

I rather wish my own erratic ejection issues with a late model production Gen3 9mm I bought in '10 had been as quick and easy to correct. I did finally resolve it, with the patient help of Glock, and trying a number of different parts & assemblies before finding the right combination for that particular gun.

 

[snubbyfan]

I imagine the high demand is causing QC to suffer.

I've worked in different factories and warehouses for many years. When there's a rush, management just wants to push product out as fast as possible. As a result, there's a lot of warrenty returns. You try to inform management of a defect and get, "doesn't matter, pack and ship it," Or, "it's not your call."

 

[Rastoff]

If you knew my history and my experience you'd be shocked.

Well, shock us because you've left us with nothing to substantiate your claims.

That a person would like a Glock trigger better than an M&P I can understand. That's just simply the difference between two guns. But, to say that the Glock has a great trigger tells me you haven't fired a gun with a great trigger. A Colt Python has a great trigger. A Dan Wesson 15T has a great trigger. Heck, even a RIA 1911-A1 has a great trigger compared to an M&P or a Glock, but by itself the Glock trigger leaves much to be desired.

Further, to say that 90% of M&P owners are unhappy with their trigger is ludicrous. If that were true, they wouldn't sell very well. What we see here is less than 1% of those that own M&Ps. Out of this entire board there are less than 10% of those that don't like the trigger out of the box.

Also, just because someone installed an Apex kit doesn't mean they hated the trigger. It just means they wanted it different or better. Nothing wrong with that.

Further still, I never "jumped all over" the OP. I simply asked what his profession was and he has declined to say.