Is it possible to modify a Smith 625 to handle .45 Super, .45 Magnum and .45 Colt?

[Outrider]

Folks,

This doesn't seem workable or even possible, but I have to ask:

Can a S&W 625 revolver be modified from strictly .45 ACP to handle in addition -- safely and relatively easily -- .45 Super, .45 Magnum and .45 Colt?

Years ago, I saw one advertised -- and just shook my head. S&W may have actually even made one.

Is it "doable"?

What level of "Jedi Master" precision would it take?

It seems the cylinder wouldn't be long enough to ream out in a standard 625 to accommodate .45 Magnum or .45 Colt and could require changing out cylinders.

What's the consensus of our brain trust out there? Has it ever been done?

 

[mikerjf]

Well, 45 Super and 450 SMC are good to go as is, I believe no mods required.

 

[WCCPHD]

S&W did make a 625 in .45 Colt.

 

[steelslaver]

I have a couple cylinders modified to shoot both 45acp and 45 colt. Because of their deeper chambes and their ability to use full moon clips, They will also chamber 45 win mags, but I will not fire 45 win mag factory loads in them. I load my 45 colts up above factory and close to 25,000psi, but win mags are a 40,000psi load. More pressure than a 44 mag with a thinner cylinder wall would be looking for serious trouble.

45 supers and 450SMC both chamber in a regular 45 acp chamber or cylinder BUT
45 super runs at 28,000psi and I would consider that the absolute limit for a 45 N frame cylinder. The 450SMC is basically the same and also runs at 28,000psi, but because it is made using 308 brass which has a stronger base it is probably safer way to go.

But a 45 colt can move a 255 slug at 1100fps what more does anyone need and why.

A 45 colt cylinder modified to fire 45 colt and 45 acp in full moons. It will also chamber 45 WM, 45 super and 450SMC.

I am currently modifying 45 acp cylinder so it will fire 45 colts, 45 acp or the others using 1/2 moon clips.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

The answer: the 45WSM

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Is it possible to modify a Smith 625 to handle .45 Super, .45 Magnum and .45 Colt?

Can a S&W 625 revolver be modified from strictly .45 ACP to handle in addition -- safely and relatively easily -- .45 Super, .45 Magnum and .45 Colt? Is it "doable"?

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Here's my (easily done) answer to this question that many have asked about over the years & it's my personal favorite (obviously ) that's posted here in the below thread in this forum:

When .45ACP In Your S&W 625 Isn’t Quite Enough… Step Up to the 45 WSM

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- some teaser pics on it
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-loaded to 45 Super power
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[Scooter1942]

I have a couple of S&W 625 Mountain Guns in 45 Colt and another came home with me today...except this one has been "customized", bead blasted, tuned trigger and TWO cylinders. One cylinder is the original in 45 Colt and the other an un-fluted cylinder cut for moon clips but also in 45 Colt. There was a note on the box that said 45ACP cylinder, but the cylinder length is the same as 45 Colt and it chambers 45 Colt just fine. I'm guessing the previous owner just shot 45ACP out of it with moon clips. So hear me out.

A couple of weeks back I started a thread on another forum about "woods guns". One of the posters had his 625 Mountain Gun in 45 Colt cut for moon clips. He was running 45WinMag brass with 270 SWC at about 950 fps. In other words, loading that 45 Win Mag brass to warm 45 Colt levels. The benefit of course was that he was able to shoot 45 Colt or 45 WinMag (with his low powered handloads) with the added speed of reloading with moon clips.

I thought the idea was a good one, so when I happened upon this revolver today I jumped on it...that and it was a great deal.

Is there any reason why I shouldn't pursue this provided I stay within 45Colt pressures/velocity? Thoughts?


First two pics are of the 45 Win Mag brass with 270 gr as posted in another forum. Last pic is of the revolver I brought home today.

 

[bill1917]

OK, I have to go back to an old question I have asked before but no answer. S&W makes the Governor that handles 45ACP and 45 Colt as well as .410 shotgun shells. Why couldn’t they make an N frame to handle 45 ACP and 45 Colt from the factory?

 

[steelslaver]

IF you took a 45 colt cylinder and faced the back of it off about .038 it would chamber 45 acps and 45 win mags in moon clips, BUT if you do not leave the ledge around the outside like the cylinder I show in post #4 you will have a huge amount of headspace when firing 45 colts unless they are set up to head space off the case mouth. NOT GOOD

In a cylinder that takes acp in moon clips a 45 colt rim should remain about .037 off the cylinder if it does chamber them.

Look closely at the 45 colt rims in this picture. It is an acp cylinder reamed deep enough for 45 colt (or 45 win mag) BUT it has a 45 colt extractor star which holds the rims to the correct height to headspace correctly

When you have the "acp" cylinder installed and load it with 45 colts cases, how much space is between colt case head and recoil shield at firing pin. Should only be .002 to about .008.
A cylinder that takes acp in moon clips that has been reamed to 45 colt length chambers with no provision made to hold the 45 colt rims off the cylinder face that the clips rest on will have around .040+ headspace BAD

Excess head space lets a case gather momentum as gets to travels backward and pick up speed and slam into your recoil shield with more force than normal. NOT GOOD. It is like holding a shotgun or rifle several inches off your shoulder and pulling the trigger.

PS I WOULD NEVER EVER FIRE A FULL BLOWN 45 WIN MAG IN ANY S&W REVOLVER N FRAME CYLINDER. The Win mag runs at 40,000psi, well above 44 mag pressures of 36,000psi and the outside of a S&W colt cylinder wall is .0125 thinner than a 44 mag cylinder wall and there is .023 less between 2 chambers.

 

[steelslaver]

OK, I have to go back to an old question I have asked before but no answer. S&W makes the Governor that handles 45ACP and 45 Colt as well as .410 shotgun shells. Why couldn’t they make an N frame to handle 45 ACP and 45 Colt from the factory?

They could. I have made about 10 of them

 

[Scooter1942]

Steelslaver,

My cylinder looks like the picture of yours with the ledge around the circumference. I’ll get pics tomorrow. I’d appreciate any feedback/confirmation you could give me once I get those pics up.

 

[steelslaver]

Steelslaver,

My cylinder looks like the picture of yours with the ledge around the circumference. I’ll get pics tomorrow. I’d appreciate any feedback/confirmation you could give me once I get those pics up.

It is likely fine and probably made the same way. One with no way to hold the head space correct ly would be an issue.

I bought some Win mag cases and they work fine with loads in the 25,000psi range. While I do not believe that S&W are all that much weaker than Rugers, I don't think there is any need for a lot of velocity with big heavy bullets

Interesting fact. S&W N frame cylinders are the same diameter as the large Ruger super Blackhawk cylinders, Ruger has a slight advantage there only because their stop notch is slightly offset from chamber centerline. The cylinder is what lets go, the S&W frame does not care if you launch a 250 gr bullet at 1200-1300fps from a .429 bore or a .452 bore.

A S&W "endurance" package cylinder should be WEAKER than a earlier cylinder. Both are the same OD, but the "endurance" cylinder has a longer stop notch meaning less steel support in a critical area. The endurance part was to keep it locked up during recoil, NOT increase its ability to contain the pressure.

 

[Scooter1942]

Here are the pics I spoke of. One empty and one with 45 Colt snap caps. I haven't tried 45ACP's in moon clips yet and don't yet own any 45 Win Mag brass.

Does anyone see any issues with this?

 

[steelslaver]

Nice gun and yes, it is a new style 45 colt cylinder that someone machined in the recess for acp in full moon. Should be fine with colts. With acp you loose some velocity and possibly accuracy because for a short period after the base of the bullet has left the case mouth and pressure can get by the .452 bullet before its body is in the .452 throat which is .387 farther forward than an acp throat. Not the whole .387, just .387 minus the length that the acp bullet is bore dia. A 185 gr acp should loose more than a longer 220.

With the longer 45 win mag brass it would not occur because by the time the bullet base cleared the case mouth the body would be in the throat as the win mag case is only .087 shorter than the colt case and the bullet bodies are all longer than that.

This is an area ripe for someone to spend some time studying with a chronograph

I have never worried that much about it. I look at the ability to fire acps as a handy thing, great for a quick reload, etc.

Don't expect a setup like that to be a precision target gun, but they do OK. I have killed quite a few steel and paper plates at 25 yards with mine.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Be responsible

He was running 45WinMag brass with 270 SWC at about 950 fps. In other words, loading that 45 Win Mag brass to warm 45 Colt levels. The benefit of course was that he was able to shoot 45 Colt or 45 WinMag (with his low powered handloads) with the added speed of reloading with moon clips.

I thought the idea was a good one, so when I happened upon this revolver today I jumped on it...that and it was a great deal.

Is there any reason why I shouldn't pursue this provided I stay within 45Colt pressures/velocity? Thoughts?

When I came up with the architecture for my 45WSM use in a 45ACP cylinder one of the key thoughts was NOT to allow for the possibility of a 45WIN MAG to ever be able to be chambered in it, either on purpose or accidentally, by someone not knowing better.

A 45ACP cylinder is long enough for a 45WIN MAG to fit in but not if you ream the cylinder's chamber shoulder/ledge to 45 Schofield (1.100") length, which is a tenth of an inch shorter.

Done this way a factory length 45WIN MAG will stick out too far to be able to close the cylinder of a 45ACP cylinder modified for 45WSM.

In a 45 COLT cylinder you don't have this safeguard.

If you know unequivocally that a full power 45WIN MAG will never get into your cylinder then go for it.

But remember, if it can happen it likely will happen.

I expect my revolver to be around longer than me & who knows who's hands it'll end up in then.

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PS: Winchester 45WIN MAG brass will not clip into 45ACP moonclips, but Starline 45WIN MAG brass will, because the Winchester extractor grooves are of a larger diameter than 45ACP brass (which the S-L brass uses) and therefore they have different shellholders specs.

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[steelslaver]

Lots of ammo will fit in the wrong chamber.

For example, 45 supers fit in every 45acp ever made. The super runs at 28,000psi and the 45acp+P at 23,000psi

In fact your cylinder modified for the 45WSM would chamber 45 Rolands which run at 40,000psi, the same as pressure as 45WM

I do have a concern about the fact that I have some Starline 45WM brass and loaded rounds, in that some day, after I am gone an idiot will put that together and interpret it to mean they can fire Factory Win Mags in my guns, even though the load data is clearly marked in the ammo boxes.

I have played with and made plenty of dual cylinders, but, I am now down to only 2 guns (a 2 1/2" 325 and a 3 1/4" modified 1917) that fire both calibers and with the modified cylinder currently in the 325 any rimless acp or 45WM cases need to be clipped in 1/2 moons as 45 colt head space is held by a portion of the ratchet.

While dual caliber cylinders work, I have plenty of both acp and colt

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Without a doubt you can't avoid some interchangeabilities. The industry created the 45 Super conundrum & can't be avoided in any 45AUTO.

While the 460 Roland's case is slightly longer than a 45ACP's it's max COAL" is the same so any 45ACP case can actually be loaded to 460 Roland power since the available case capacity is the same. No stopping stupidity.

I don't use, or need to use, moonclips for the 45WSMs as it can headspace on the chamber's shoulder. A 460 Roland would not & would fall in the chamber, but I agree with your statement.

My point is to not create any more opportunities for a disaster to occur if you can.

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