I am looking for guidance (searched but didn't see much on it)on the acceptability of testing a revolver for hammer push-off. In a private sale, I would say that it should be done by the prospective buyer. But I witnessed a bad scene when someone tried it in a LGS and he was accused of possibly damaging the firearm. Equally, I had to take a Model 18-3 to a smith to have it corrected when I did not test for push-off. With pricing in the $1,000 range for most S&Ws in my current target zone, should I just take the chance on a $70 trigger fix?
Is it rude to test push-off?
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flintsghost
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The problem becomes, do you know what you are doing. Push off is not a real common problem and you can in fact damage a revolver by pushing the hammer at full cock. A strong man can probably push most off if he tries hard enough. A light push is one thing but cocking it and laying on it for everything you have is something else. If the action feels proper to start with you won't get push off. I don't check it at all on any of the ones I buy and I'm a factory certified armorer. It is not a factory recommended check.
If a seller is offended by testing for pushoff, what else are they hiding.
Don't ask permission, test for pushoff as part of due diligence.
Don't ask permission, test for pushoff as part of due diligence.
44wheelman
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If the trigger seems really light, almost too light, then it probably can be pushed off. Just anticipate an extra 1/2 hour with some stones to rectify.
No I won't ask, I just assume it will fail.
No I won't ask, I just assume it will fail.
flintsghost is absolutely correct. What you have is people with a little knowledge about potential issues but not enough knowledge to know what they are doing or the proper way to check for issues. I had a guy break the hammer on a model 18 who was intent on making it push off so he thought he would have a bargaining chip on a sale. These guys think every gun they run across have been reblued, have timing issues, push off or any other thing they read about...
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You can do it moderately. I try and sneak it. Like the others said, you do not lay into it. If you buy a car , you want a drive and look around.
I all ways ask to pick it up and cock it. Just etiquette. And take the grips off
to view the main spring for shaving.
I all ways ask to pick it up and cock it. Just etiquette. And take the grips off
to view the main spring for shaving.
The LGS that I worked part time had all firearms actions closed with a plastic tie. If a interested buyer requested to test the action, the tie was taken off. This method prevented Hollywood style slamming the cylinders closed, spinning the cylinder, and roughhousing the weapon. Unless the customer was a regular that had shown proper weapon handling in the past, the sales person was up close to stop any "Cowboy handling"
When I am looking at a used S&W I always run a check and push off is one of the things I check. Don't push hard, but a little firm pressure with my thumb. I also check timing, end shake, lock up and cylinder gap. I want to know what I am getting. I never dry fire then because many people think that's bad. I catch the hammer with a finger on timing and lock up checks. I have never had anyone say anything. In fact at some pawn shops they have actually asked about checking them out. Many pawn shops may have an FFL, but few are gun experts.
Pisgah
Member
This is a standard safety check for any revolver. If you can push it off with nothing but the force of your bare thumb, the gun was defective before you picked it up. If someone refuses to let me do standard checks on a gun before buying it, they've just lost a sale. My suspicion would be that they already KNOW it's bad.
No, it's not rude, but prudent on your part.
I looked at a shotgun last week and wanted to inspect the friction ring and spring. The pawnshop salesperson said that disassembly wasn't allowed. I told them that if I couldn't inspect, I wouldn't consider buying. They looked at me like I was from Mars, as I walked off. They missed a possible sale by not letting me inspect a firearm that I was considering purchasing, but I want to know what I'm buying, versus some *** they're trying to get rid of. It's their problem, not mine.......
I looked at a shotgun last week and wanted to inspect the friction ring and spring. The pawnshop salesperson said that disassembly wasn't allowed. I told them that if I couldn't inspect, I wouldn't consider buying. They looked at me like I was from Mars, as I walked off. They missed a possible sale by not letting me inspect a firearm that I was considering purchasing, but I want to know what I'm buying, versus some *** they're trying to get rid of. It's their problem, not mine.......
I check it in the blink of an eye,when I do a little exam.A quick nudge with no risk of damage.
If a person was to be really strong thumbing it,I would take exception to that too.
A gun with push off,has the potential of needing more than a $70 repair in my book.I wouldn't dismiss it that easily.
If a person was to be really strong thumbing it,I would take exception to that too.
A gun with push off,has the potential of needing more than a $70 repair in my book.I wouldn't dismiss it that easily.
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I'd venture to say most buyers or gun owners don't have a clue how to test for push off. Because of that there is a very distinct possibility that some ham fisted tire kicker can ruin a good SA target trigger. They weigh triggers at the big matches cause they know push offs will roll or burr the trigger bevel edge. The sharper the edge the heavier the break but push a good trigger off even once or twice and you can create this burr and that results in an even lighter trigger break. The interface between the trigger SA bevel edge and the hammer notch is literally a couple of thousandths and only the trigger can be stoned.
So if your looking for a good target trigger for like Bullseye or even Silhouette gun then testing for push off may not be necessary at all. If it's a carry or just a good safe utility piece then trigger weight alone should alert you to a possible push off hazard and it is a hazard on most guns. Ask the owner or seller to test it if front of you. If the trigger is unsafe it won't take but a few pounds of force to reveal it. If you think the seller is trying to pull one on you take a trigger pull gauge to the hammer with the muzzle and butt down on a table and have at it. Honestly any gun shop that would let a unsafe trigger out the door is just plain suicidal. I've got some model 14 Bullseye guns that absolutely defy normal push off tests and break at 2# consistently. It can be done.
BTW dry firing these guns is and always has been encouraged and acceptable. However shops with lots of inventory cannot realistically differentiate between guns like rim fires that you should not dry fire and acceptable guns so they prohibit dry firing any of their guns.
So if your looking for a good target trigger for like Bullseye or even Silhouette gun then testing for push off may not be necessary at all. If it's a carry or just a good safe utility piece then trigger weight alone should alert you to a possible push off hazard and it is a hazard on most guns. Ask the owner or seller to test it if front of you. If the trigger is unsafe it won't take but a few pounds of force to reveal it. If you think the seller is trying to pull one on you take a trigger pull gauge to the hammer with the muzzle and butt down on a table and have at it. Honestly any gun shop that would let a unsafe trigger out the door is just plain suicidal. I've got some model 14 Bullseye guns that absolutely defy normal push off tests and break at 2# consistently. It can be done.
BTW dry firing these guns is and always has been encouraged and acceptable. However shops with lots of inventory cannot realistically differentiate between guns like rim fires that you should not dry fire and acceptable guns so they prohibit dry firing any of their guns.
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Whenever I purchase for myself or check out a possible purchase for a friend I go through a whole series of checks. They include end-shake, cylinder side to side play, timing, ejector rod straightness, push-off, barrel / cylinder gap (I have a .006" feeler gauge in my wallet), over-all condition of gun and stocks, condition of side-plate screws (can tell a lot from that) and of course the condition of the barrel, yoke, top strap and forcing cone. I also look at the originality of all parts and look to see of the gun has been re-finished and check the grips to see if they match the serial number of the gun. Original box, paperwork and tool kit add bonus points to any gun's price of course.
This may sound like a lot but it actually takes no more than five minutes or so. If a LGS would NOT let me perform these checks I'd pass on the gun with very few exceptions. So far I have not encountered a LGS that objected. They see almost immediately that I know exactly what I am doing and that I am not hurting the gun When I dry-fire the Revolver I hold my thumb in front of the hammer so it does not fall and have metal to metal contact. They do appreciate that.
I have purchased (at bargain prices of course) Smiths that did not even function but I knew exactly what the problem was without even opening up the gun and knew I had the parts and the knowledge to fix them. The LGS was thrilled to get rid of those gun and I was thrilled to get them at a very low price - they now function and shoot flawlessly!
NOTE: When testing for push-off only a moderate amount of force should be exerted, but NOT excessive! Pushed hard enough (like a Gorilla) many hammers will fall and the fragile sear engagement can be permanently damaged. I could see a LGS objecting to someone who they feel is clueless as to what they are doing so if you are not really sure the proper way to perform tests on Guns, then someone qualified to do so should be with you before you pull out your wallet.
This may sound like a lot but it actually takes no more than five minutes or so. If a LGS would NOT let me perform these checks I'd pass on the gun with very few exceptions. So far I have not encountered a LGS that objected. They see almost immediately that I know exactly what I am doing and that I am not hurting the gun When I dry-fire the Revolver I hold my thumb in front of the hammer so it does not fall and have metal to metal contact. They do appreciate that.
I have purchased (at bargain prices of course) Smiths that did not even function but I knew exactly what the problem was without even opening up the gun and knew I had the parts and the knowledge to fix them. The LGS was thrilled to get rid of those gun and I was thrilled to get them at a very low price - they now function and shoot flawlessly!
NOTE: When testing for push-off only a moderate amount of force should be exerted, but NOT excessive! Pushed hard enough (like a Gorilla) many hammers will fall and the fragile sear engagement can be permanently damaged. I could see a LGS objecting to someone who they feel is clueless as to what they are doing so if you are not really sure the proper way to perform tests on Guns, then someone qualified to do so should be with you before you pull out your wallet.
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Just do it when they are not looking. It it fails, don't say anything about it. After a couple of minutes, just tell them you decided not to buy it.
Problem solved.
Problem solved.
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If I were a seller, I would not want a push off test done on my revolver. An unknown person likely does not know how, and I do not want my gun damaged by someone who: (1) does not know what he is doing; and, (2) will not pay to fix it when he ruins my hammer/sear engagement.
Further, it is one of the most unscientific ways to test a revolver action.
It is doubtful that the "test" is performed the same way by anyone, and without a precise set of weights and instructions from the factory, there is no way it is repeatable. I say don't allow it.
Sorry to be a humbug at Christmas.
Further, it is one of the most unscientific ways to test a revolver action.
It is doubtful that the "test" is performed the same way by anyone, and without a precise set of weights and instructions from the factory, there is no way it is repeatable. I say don't allow it.
Sorry to be a humbug at Christmas.
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Thanks for the qualified responses! As usual, there is a divergence of opinions. I will go with the general thought that if the hammer falls with a small bit of pressure I will either pass on it or be prepared to have it corrected. My eye is out for very good condition shooters, but not silhouette quality trigger actions.
Again, thanks for the responses.
SD
Again, thanks for the responses.
SD
Inusuit
Member
I wouldn't do anything to a firearm belonging to another person without asking permission. That includes push off testing, dry firing, slide racking, trigger pull, etc. I'd consider that rude. If the seller objects, he's lost the sale. I might argue, or ask him to do the checks if it's a gun I really want. The exception, of course, is to open the action/cylinder to determine if the firearm is in fact unloaded. I do that automatically but it might be polite to ask first anyway.
Vulcan Bob
Member
I think if done properly its a perfectly acceptable test. I've only found one a M-15 that obviously had been messed with and pushed off with light pressure. I told the shop keeper he had a defective revolver and should be fixed before he sells it or clearly tell folks it had a problem. Much to my surprise he took it well and had their on call gunsmith repair it.
BigBill
Absent Comrade
My local gun store owner gets boogie eyes when I took his used unshot 29-10 and hold the cylinder and run the action as fast as I can single action, catching the hammer as it falls to check the timing, lockup and make sure it doesn't jam( Loc). I bought it. I do this to every revolver. I'm lightening quick at it. Never got a bad one yet.
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Big Cholla
Member
Great Protocol
Good protocol when handling another's firearm of any sort. I totally agree with Inusuit. This avoids all sorts of issues. Now, IF I am given permission to do all my 'armorer's' checks on a handgun that I have professed interest in purchasing and it fails the gentle pushoff test; I explain what I have found to the owner and offer to purchase a known defective handgun
AT a lower price. In the past, I have made that purchase. Other times I have been told, "No, I will fix it myself." At a gunshow I think that means, "I will just find another sucker." And at most LGS, that means just that, they will get it fixed before it goes out the door at their original price.
BTW, on the subject of correct handling of other people's handguns; at the last Big Reno Gun Show I had a very nice 99% M 66 (no dash) with the SS rear sight on my table for sale. I had a nicely dressed 30ish man walk up who asked politely if he could look at that handgun. I handed it to him. He carefully looked it all over and then asked if he could open the cylinder. I had to clip the nylon tie for him. He opened the cylinder and rolled it while looking at everything. I had relaxed at this point because he appeared to be a competent gun handler. He then quickly did the cowboy cylinder flip slam shut. I reached over and grabbed the M 66 from his hand. Before I could say anything he said, "Will you take $600?" I said, "No, for you the price is $800." He frowned and said, "Your table price is $700." I said that the price is always higher for idiots that damage my guns........... He walked. I couldn't believe what he did from all prior indications. I then made it a firm rule to tell anyone that looks at one of my handguns, "Do not pull the trigger, open the cylinder or close the cylinder without my permission." ............ It still raises my blood pressure to think about that incident. ......... I took that M 66 off the table and brought it home to do a complete exam on it before it ever goes up for sale again. ...........
Good protocol when handling another's firearm of any sort. I totally agree with Inusuit. This avoids all sorts of issues. Now, IF I am given permission to do all my 'armorer's' checks on a handgun that I have professed interest in purchasing and it fails the gentle pushoff test; I explain what I have found to the owner and offer to purchase a known defective handgun
AT a lower price. In the past, I have made that purchase. Other times I have been told, "No, I will fix it myself." At a gunshow I think that means, "I will just find another sucker." And at most LGS, that means just that, they will get it fixed before it goes out the door at their original price.
BTW, on the subject of correct handling of other people's handguns; at the last Big Reno Gun Show I had a very nice 99% M 66 (no dash) with the SS rear sight on my table for sale. I had a nicely dressed 30ish man walk up who asked politely if he could look at that handgun. I handed it to him. He carefully looked it all over and then asked if he could open the cylinder. I had to clip the nylon tie for him. He opened the cylinder and rolled it while looking at everything. I had relaxed at this point because he appeared to be a competent gun handler. He then quickly did the cowboy cylinder flip slam shut. I reached over and grabbed the M 66 from his hand. Before I could say anything he said, "Will you take $600?" I said, "No, for you the price is $800." He frowned and said, "Your table price is $700." I said that the price is always higher for idiots that damage my guns........... He walked. I couldn't believe what he did from all prior indications. I then made it a firm rule to tell anyone that looks at one of my handguns, "Do not pull the trigger, open the cylinder or close the cylinder without my permission." ............ It still raises my blood pressure to think about that incident. ......... I took that M 66 off the table and brought it home to do a complete exam on it before it ever goes up for sale again. ...........
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BigBill
Absent Comrade
Wait your pushing the hammer off the sear when it's cocked?
Not sure what factory you went to, but push off is 6th in the list of 11 Functional Checks in my S&W armorer's manual . . .
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Others have stated it, but...
I tend not to worry about push-off in a lightly used/new/"probably not ever worked on" gun with a standard trigger pull and weight. If you intend to check, ask the seller politely and state what you are intending to do, or have him/her do so while you watch.
I tend not to worry about push-off in a lightly used/new/"probably not ever worked on" gun with a standard trigger pull and weight. If you intend to check, ask the seller politely and state what you are intending to do, or have him/her do so while you watch.
Rude? No. Rude to do it incorrectly? Yes.
I check everything. I know what I'm doing, and that's usually evident to the seller, but I always ask politely before each function check and spec measurement; if the seller isn't familiar with revolvers (it happens), I explain what I'm doing.
Anyone who balks, goodbye.
I check everything. I know what I'm doing, and that's usually evident to the seller, but I always ask politely before each function check and spec measurement; if the seller isn't familiar with revolvers (it happens), I explain what I'm doing.
Anyone who balks, goodbye.
Completely agree. Just did a deal where I walked the seller through the function checks of a pre Model 10, and also showed the seller the finish grades and pictures in the SCSW and the Blue Book. Told him exactly what I would pay, and showed him why. Very smooth purchase.
Well put.
I always ask before putting my mitts on someone else's gun, and request permission to do a trigger and timing check. I catch the hammer with a finger, and yes, check (gently) for push-off.
BigBill I would venture to say that you will never get a bad one.
I'm saying that the so-called push off test is completely unnecessary and has the potential to damage the sear.
In my many years of buying Smiths I have never checked this and never regretted it.
I've heard this claim about push off and sear damage and somebody needs to step in here and clear this up. Single action and push off has nothing to do with the sear. The SA hold is the relation or fit between the trigger bevel and the hammer's SA ' Cocking Notch ' as it's often called. The sear on these revolvers doesn't get involved until double action.
I might also add if anyone is really looking for a tight aligned and properly timed gun then you need a range rod with The proper sized bore plug. All the fancy fingering and trigger pulling won't tell you what a range rod will. You cannot verify cylinder to bore alignment without one and anybody who tells you they can is ---well misinformed to put it politely.
Regards
I might also add if anyone is really looking for a tight aligned and properly timed gun then you need a range rod with The proper sized bore plug. All the fancy fingering and trigger pulling won't tell you what a range rod will. You cannot verify cylinder to bore alignment without one and anybody who tells you they can is ---well misinformed to put it politely.
Regards
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