Is pistol marksmanship a lost art?

[amazingflapjack]

Those were the days my friend...

I belong to the only outdoor range in my area. It began many years ago as a club that had use of a prison guard range, a couple times a week. They closed the range (?) so after several years of rangling, some of the original folks got together and put together a range. It is a nice facility, but it was frought with PC and EPA from jump street. The first set of rules was 13 pages long! It is a 50 yd handgun range where, until recently, you had to get a "special waiver" to shoot pistol caliber rifles. The original group were bullseye shooters, and that's ok, as long as there is some flexability about other things-and there are a lot of other things. I'm all for safety-I don't want to take one in the back, or anywhere else, but when you have individuals hovering over shooters looking for some infraction of "the rules" which might not even be unsafe, it breeds stress, which causes mishaps, as well as takes the "fun" out of your time at the range. On ocasion, I have suggested that the need to use a gun for more than paper perferation may happen, and that they won't be able the call "cold range" while you get your stance just right on the nice smooth concrete deck, make sure your grip is correct, and then, when a perfect sight alignment has been achieved, call for a "hot range," being sure to stay within ALL of the rules, and then procede to place a nice tight 5 shot group of holes in the asailants center chest area. You get my drift?

There are no gongs-there could be a bullet deflected, etc, etc.

I miss the days when everyone seemed to know the rules before they showed up. and there were places to shoot where you could try some different things, and have some safe fun. Oh-I know there are different competitive pistol competitions, but not evryone can, or wants, to make that kind of committment. My FFL is a LEO, and is in charge of the Sherifs Dept training, which, ironically, is held at the range I belong to. He and some of his friends have a 40 acre property where they can go and really shoot-out to 200 yds-gongs and everything! Flapjack.

 

[fiasconva]

Sometimes I think the high capacity mags lead to a lot of this. "Hey, I've got 17 rounds, why do I need to be that accurate?" But I see some really good shooting at my range sometimes and the people doing it right can really impress you.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Down here in Tennessee... old half-blind grannies who have never held a gun shoot better when qualifying for their handgun permit than what the OP describes as the average shooter in his neck of the woods. What are ya'll doing up there?

I think you would enjoy our Bullseye Pistol Range. It accommodates about 30 and there's a lot of like-minded folks. Matches start in April.

CRC

 

[Rule 303]

Take a shooter to a range, set up a 25 yard pistol bull at 15 yards.
Give the shooter a double action revolver and thirty rounds of ammuntion. Tell him/her to shoot this course.

Ten rounds single action (five rounds per string), unlimited time.
Ten rounds single action (five rounds per string), 30 seconds per string.
Ten rounds single action (five rounds per string), 10 second per string.

Shooting this course to show who the pistol marksman are.
The course teaches the skills needed to shoot a handgun.
Sight Alignment, Sight Picture, Trigger Control, and Breath Control.

When I went to Basic Police School at 1310 L. St. NW in DeeCee we were shooting on the Beltsville EPS Range, the second time I shot it I was in Criminal Investigator School at FLEA-tic at Glynco, Ga.

Its just mind over matter as I had lots of bad habits to overcome for years of handgun shooting.

This was the qualification at the Treasury Academy in the 70s when most all Federal Officers carried revolvers. We shot Model 15s on this course. The course required that you score a 210 to pass, expert was 270 and above. If you didn't pass once, you could not proceed to the Combat Shooting Cours of Training and you were put on the bus headed back home.

Rule 303

 

[venomballistics]

I think one of the problems hindering marksmanship are the ranges themselves.
25 yards isnt spit for any proper arm and that is all too often the norm and 25 yards is also preached to be the holy grail ... I'm glad I didnt have anyone around to tell me of 25 yard standard when I picked up my 629 .. and pushed myself with it to the 200 mark while I had the resources to do so. As a result when it came time to qualify for my CCW I deemed it necessary to purposely scatter the group to avoid a single jagged, and unintelligible hole which would have been impossible to score.

 

[Kavinsky]

Well if you want to improve your pistol marksmanship first things first, shoot at something you can tell you hit everytime you shoot at it

and paper target arent one of them as you cant tell where your hitting after the first 3 savos at any range so I personally switched from paper to clay pigeons and the remains of them scattered at my clubs outdoor 25 yard pistol range

and well I can say with no ego I'm a hell of a good pistol and revolver shot now because I did just that as before I had no idea where I was consisitantly hitting during my usual 100 round practice run

and now I can easily pick off clay pigeons with each shot usually or damn close to them, regardless if I'm firing DA with the K22, the M29 or a semi auto like a glock 40 or a .45 1911 thanks to that plus a whole hell of a lot of snap cap trigger practice at home.

So papers for bragging, clay pigeons are for practice is the way I look at it


and if you cant find any clay pigeons or cant afford them just shoot at the berm and pick off the remains of something or a twig, hell use a tin coke can or something, something that shows you you hit it or you missed it, anything BUT paper.

plus putting paper on a target frame that you had to drag all the way overthere is a pain in the *** to begin with.

 

[David LaPell]

I can tell you that while I am no Elmer Keith or Ed Mcgivern I have been practicing handgun skills at ranges longer than most for some time. I have handgun hunted small game and I can tell you that most guys seem to think my skills are supernatural even though I am no where near what the old timers were. When I shoot my qualifications most other guys in the department seem to view me as some freak of nature. I know some guys who can shoot rings around me (and I have competed against them) so I am trying to figure out how good I am or how bad these other guys are.
I practice alot (well I did before I got hurt) and I find that shooting small targets like playing cards at varying distances like 15 and 25 yards and slightly larger targets at 40 yards (all offhand) really hones the senses. Someday I would really like to stretch the range on my handguns to 100 yards just for the heck of it. But right now I keep everything in the practical range. One thing I was reading in Elmer Keith's "Hell I was there" was that he regretted shooting game at really long ranges with a handgun and he felt that it should be kept as close as possible, something that does not get alot of mention with him.

 

[Hobie1]

NRA Bullseye

Personally the best sport using a gun that I ever had the pleasure of getting involved in.
Under the instruction of some really nice people, I not only learned how to shoot more accurately, but at least and probably even more important, proper safe gun handling and etiquette.
Just .02 worth from me.
Hobie

 

[Cyrano]

Shooting at Home

My range is a half hour drive away. I wanted to shoot more so I got a second hand Feinwerkbau air pistol. That thing is embarassigly accurate, and the cost of pellets is infinitesmal. I shoot from one end of the garage to the other, and have a makeshift backstop; the pistol has a lot of power and penetration is a problem, so I got an old 'Readers Digest Condensed Book' for a bullet trap, which works pretty well.

 

[silentflyer]

I am amazed how poorly the plastic and springs pray and spray actually shoot. Had a couple of them comment on my "obsolete" revolvers. Usually a friendly wager for ten bucks at a 25 yard bulls eye target, makes them believers, and I always offer them a chance too shoot my wheel guns.

 

[ChuckS1]

I like the fast shooters. Generally they're the ones who don't reload or police their brass, so I generally leave with more brass than I came with. Just wish more of them shot .45's! But lately I'm getting less tolerant of unsafe gun handling. Yesterday another shooter (a retired marine colonel) reminded someone about keeping his muzzle pointed downrange and the reply was "it's okay, it's not loaded". I kinda miss ranges with an on-site range officer giving range commands...

 

[BE Mike]

Learning the fundamentals of pistol marksmanship through bullseye pistol shooting has served me well through the years. The habit of watching the front sight and controlling the trigger applies to all my shooting beyond 7 yds. After learning the fundamentals, I later learned to shoot double- action, shoot from cover, point shoot, reload under pressure and shoot and move. I always considered putting my rounds where I wanted to be the primary goal of my training. Learning the skills takes considerable time and effort. Target shooting became my hobby rather than golf or bowling, for example. I wanted to learn practical skills that would serve me outside of the sports areas. Unfortunately most law agencies nor civilians are ever introduced to the fundamentals, so they don't develop any appreciable skill. For the past 15 years or so, law enforcement agencies don't emphasize marksmanship fundamentals. They spend most of their firearms training hours on all the other necessary skills of pistolcraft. Anyone who challenges the current thinking is considered a dinosaur.

 

[Oldiron]

I guess there may be a difference in where you live but I prefer the old one handed bullseye shooting around here. Has served me well with the dozens of snakes, possums, squirrels and other critters that needed dispatched over the years. My CCW is in my pocket to get me to a rifle or shotgun if there is a problem with 2 legged snakes. JMHO
Larry

 

[mkk41]

Is pistol marksmanship a lost art?

Judging from the hits on the target holders and holes in the ceiling at my gun club , that's a definate YES!

All the cool young guys seem to buy autos , show up with a dozen loaded 15-rd mags and empty them as fast as they can pull the trigger. Yep , spray & pray. I overheard one such urban commando say to another ,"If ya put a bunch of holes all over the place , they'll bleed out fer sure!" , or something like that. Seems like they should simply buy a shotgun. They'd get smaller 'patterns'.

And if ya try to set up an old fashioned bullseye league , people show up with the weirdest guns and ideas of bullseye. They loose interest when they read the 'stupid' and 'antiquated' rules.

It's bullseye , not IPSC!

 

[oldRoger]

I have a good friend who is a fair shot and could be better.
He hangs a full size silhouette target about 10yards away and shoots, except with his .22 when he uses a 25’ NRA pistol target. It is no surprise that he is much better with the .22 than centerfire.
He tries to aim centermass on the silhouette target, but absent an aiming point, this is sort of a point and shoot exercise.
I put a red target center on the thing and tell him to pretend it is a button, of course his groups tighten up.

I tend to use 25’ targets at 50 feet, as long as I can see the bullseye, a small target gives me something precise to shoot at. Further, it is easier for me to see the bullet holes.

 

[feralmerril]

I post a lot, have a nice collection and consider myself knowledgable. I am NOT a good shot! My peak was in my early twentys but not nessasarly on paper. I was big into plain old plinking with a lot of aerial shooting with a old ruger single six. For awhile my thing was throwing bottels in the air, drawing and shooting them pretty regular. On my job we had to qualify every 6 months and I worked there for 35 years. I never had trouble qualifying. Yet I never considered myself a great shot.
I did buy a lot of guns, reloaded and would shoot the guns rested off the bench or hood of the truck. Thats what I liked to do.
In later years I developed the shakes. Its a family thing. My dad shook, and my grandmother had to shave my grandfather as he shook so bad. I noticed most my aunts and uncles shook too.
Hell ov a deal to love handguns but be a bad shot! I still feel confident enough to depend on them for defense though.

 

[amazingflapjack]

They are called fundimentals, because that's what they are.

Kavinsky-Be Mike and others-That's what I'm talkin' about. Bullseye is great for fundementals, but only if you move on from the fundementals!

I used to have a place in the Ga mountains where I could step out on my deck and shoot anything, in several directions, safely, out to about 100 yds. It was hand gun paridise. I had developed a desire to become proficient with a hand gun while in the army, where I saw the dire need of this skill in myself and others. I was out with a .22 rifle from age 7, and was a natural shot, shooting expert (by one hit!) at the infamous Ft. Bragg course of the 1960's, but other than my Dad's Ruger single six, which helped feed my desire to shoot short arms better, I was not a hand gun hand, so to speak. So when I got to this mountain propertry, I bought a brand new Ruger Mark II, and hung some old alluminum frying pans around at different spots, and started to learn. I think it was/is the perfect learning platform to learn hand-eye coordination, sight acquisition, recoil controll and recovery, etc. Repitition is very important, and an auto loader makes that process the easiest way to attain it. The pans moved and made a noise when hit, reinforcing good shooting, and building confidence. Within a few months, I could really make those suckers dance! So by the time I got my first post Army center fire pistol-a S&W m-59-I was ready to roll. And, oh yeah-I could still make those single shot bullseye shots too. Flapjack.

 

[hsmith9491]

With today's pistols loaded with 15 + rounds the new shooters just point and spray.

 

[Len]

Thank you for your replies...good discussion and personal perspectives.

Kind of makes you wonder if this thread ties into the "who taught you to shoot" thread. Maybe an early start with a caring dad [or granddad, or uncle, etc.] makes for not only experienced shooters....but also above-average marksmen [and women]



Len

 

[Texas Star]

I like to feel that I can hit a snake in the head at danger distances. I guess that goes out the window if the snake is a black mamba coming at full speed. Only a shotgun might save you then.

I'd be deeply embarrassed if I couldn't hit a rabbit at 25 yards, especially a big jack rabbit. (Yeah, I know they're technically hares.)

Watch the front sight. See it sharply and the target less sharply. Hold the gun steady, and use proper trigger control.

I understand that Wyatt Earp advised, Take your time, fast.

You can use the Fairbairn-Applegate point shooting technique even now, to about 15 yards. It takes instinct and practice, and the Weaver stance is steadier and better at distance.

Get the late David W. Arnold's, Shoot a Handgun, if you can locate a copy. It'll tell you how to shoot. Long range stuff is especially well described in Elmer Keith's classic, Sixguns.

Elmer could shoot. I saw him fire a .44 Magnum at a target 200 yards away when he was in his seventies. He complained about the light and his aging eyes, but he drilled that target.

And I saw Bill Jordan draw a Model 19 S&W so fast that he fired a shot before the tennis ball that he had balanced on his hand could enter the well of his holster.That is fast. And an opponent really close would have been hit easily by his shot.
Bill could draw and fire before most men could think to do it.

But such superb shots as these or David Arnold started with the basics, and that's where to begin. The average younger shooter has simply never read a gun book or received even military instruction. What I had in high school ROTC and in the USAF was actually pretty good. And I have gun books, and have talked with some outstanding shooters. Alas, all three of those named are no longer with us. But they left a wonderful legacy in their books. Read them.