tomcatt51
Member
Thank you. Scooter's are long enough without any competition.
Is S&W Performance Center equal to inferior quality?
- Thread starter Silverbullit
- Start date
OP
Silverbullit
Member
Hi Scooter & Aphelion,
Thanks for your reply, I am here just in hopes for your feedback mates!
Forgive me but did you notice I showed timing using 2 different methods?
Between 1:01-1:20 in the video I do NOT touch the cylinder just pull the trigger and you can clearly see the hammer fall and after that the cylinder snaps 1-2 millimeters in place.
Just so I am clear, you are certain this is nothing to bother with?
I got really worried about all the lead spraying sideways and the uneven firingpin marks on primers all the way from the edge to the middle?
If you guys judge it safe theres really no problem and I am just happy for your help verifying I can compete with the 625, and sincerely much obliged for your reassurance mates as I got a bit worried over the variation from all other S&W I own!
Oh yes about the group/sight issue, as I wrote next to the videolink - I wrongly point on the target the wrong way (also say this in posts below)
[OBS!!!]I CORRECTLY SHOULD SAY THAT IF THE HOLES ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TARGET - THE AIM IS OFF 2" or 5 Centimeters BELOW!!![OBS!!!]
And not the other way as I wrongly say, in other words it is just like I explain with the sights!
(But poor knowledge in english confused the heck out of me and worse - thinking and speaking at the same time is not my strong suite so I say it backwards in the vid, sry mates. It is unfortunate nobody reads the clarification next to the videolink.)
I am here for your support and feedback mates, even tho I might be going the way about testing I do really appreciate your feedback!
You seem knowledgable Scooter, how do I go about checking the timing in a proper way?
Thanks mates!
/Silverbullit
PS. I will borrow a proper scale to measure the trigger with weights and pull-scale! BRB =)
Thanks for your reply, I am here just in hopes for your feedback mates!
Forgive me but did you notice I showed timing using 2 different methods?
Between 1:01-1:20 in the video I do NOT touch the cylinder just pull the trigger and you can clearly see the hammer fall and after that the cylinder snaps 1-2 millimeters in place.
Just so I am clear, you are certain this is nothing to bother with?
I got really worried about all the lead spraying sideways and the uneven firingpin marks on primers all the way from the edge to the middle?
If you guys judge it safe theres really no problem and I am just happy for your help verifying I can compete with the 625, and sincerely much obliged for your reassurance mates as I got a bit worried over the variation from all other S&W I own!
Oh yes about the group/sight issue, as I wrote next to the videolink - I wrongly point on the target the wrong way (also say this in posts below)
[OBS!!!]I CORRECTLY SHOULD SAY THAT IF THE HOLES ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TARGET - THE AIM IS OFF 2" or 5 Centimeters BELOW!!![OBS!!!]
And not the other way as I wrongly say, in other words it is just like I explain with the sights!
(But poor knowledge in english confused the heck out of me and worse - thinking and speaking at the same time is not my strong suite so I say it backwards in the vid, sry mates. It is unfortunate nobody reads the clarification next to the videolink.)
I am here for your support and feedback mates, even tho I might be going the way about testing I do really appreciate your feedback!
You seem knowledgable Scooter, how do I go about checking the timing in a proper way?
Thanks mates!
/Silverbullit
PS. I will borrow a proper scale to measure the trigger with weights and pull-scale! BRB =)
Last edited:
OP
Silverbullit
Member
It is better in single action mode, more so with right hand than left that I have to touch the cylinder in order for it to snap and lock.
About trigger pull I purchased this as it was the IPSC edition for shooting mainly exactly IPSC. (Well other sports to like PPC and stuff.)
But I have to confess the uneven primermarks and all that lead spraying sideways worried me a lot when I noticed I visually could clearly see the cylinder move AFTER the hammer fell. (NOT touching the cylinder)
And yes I understand it seems presumptious of me to judge light trigger weight by simply pulling the trigger, I got this way by averaging 1800 rounds weekly practice for the last 8-9 years and somewhere along the line I got pretty good at estimating this stuff. I can say for certain it is below 1 kilogram, but my shootingclubmate called in is on the way with the clubs weights for measuring in trigger pulls in our competitions.
Sorry I forgot, somebody asked my how much it cost - it was a good deal and I only had to pay 14.995:- sek, the dollar is about 6,50Sek making it about 2300USD if my math skills is not completely off?
About the trigger weight, my mate is here waving weights in my face... =)
It fails the lightest competition weight of 0,8 kilograms (solid weights that you combine with rubberclad hook u put on the trigger and carefully lift the revolver, the base has a starter weight of 0,8 kilograms that cannot be removed, just added to.)
I put the revolver in the vice (with rubber blocks of course) and tried the "pull-scale", the indicator locks at 0,67-0,62 kilograms. (Sorry the closest I can get.) Is that good?
Also noticed now that the trigger does not fall all the way, the hammer seems to randomly engage the double action notch. (happens say 4-6 times out of 100 singleactiontriggering)
Actually even if it makes the fall all the way both me and my mates agree we clearly feel a bump when it passes the doubleaction notch. Does your 625s do this also mate?
Now I got even more confused...
Last edited:
Maximumbob54
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At this point I would just like to add that a few years back I was lucky enough to have a port visit to Goteborg, Sweden. I was still in the USN and we were deployed with NATO at the time. I don't know what looked better, the countryside in any direction you looked or the women in any direction you looked!!! But one other thing did come to my attention... You guys LOVE some Mcdonalds!!! I remember we lost count of all the different places we found them. But they served beer in almost every single one of them! And they were clean! And full of beautiful women!!! (my favorite part if you can't tell)
scooter123
Member
Ok, I can understand the language issue and your most recent post points up that you do have some issues that need to be addressed.
First off Timing. To properly check timing in the MOST accurate manner you'll need some sized but unprimed casings. This will allow the casings to assist in registering the cylinder to the extractor star. As for why, at some periods the fit of the extractor star to the cylinder was a bit "loose" and casings in the cylinder were the final device to register the extractor star to the cylinder. If your not too fussy about duplicating a cylinder loaded with fresh ammunition you can use fired casings as a substitute but this will improve the registration of the two parts by a small amount. Azoom brand snap caps are also a suitable alternate and I've found their diameter is basically the same as a fresh factory cartridge. If you can get Azoom snap caps in Sweden they are good to have on hand.
Now to check the timing using a method that is considered proper by the largest group of users and gunsmiths. Note, there is some debate on the proper method so what I am presenting is the consensus of what is considered correct. The way to do this is to pull the trigger VERY SLOWLY in Double action and listen for the cylinder stop to crop into it's notch before the hammer falls. If your trigger control is good enough you should be able to drop the cylinder stop in every notch without dropping the hammer once. Now, due to the design of the lockwork in a S&W it is typical for a left handed trigger pull to cause a failure in this test on some chamber positions. The cause is the trigger cocking slightly on it's pivot pin and "throwing" the hand away from the drive pawl. However, with a right handed trigger pull the revolver should pass this test for every chamber position. Failure to pass this test is called a "failure to carry up". Correction for this condition varies depending on how bad it is.
If only one or two chambers are effected the pawl on the extractor can be peened to widen it enough to allow the carry up to be corrected. If every chamber fails to carry up a wider hand is usually fitted.
Now, one note about Timing in terms of Combat Usage. That is that it's obvious that if the trigger is pulled quickly a failure to carry up won't be a problem because the rotating mass of the cylinder will carry it into lock. So, if you are engaging in action shooting a very minor miss on timing may not be worth bothering with. Mainly it's a concern for those who "stage" there triggers to achieve the best accuracy. It's also why S&W advises against staging the trigger in the owners manual, the simple truth is that these were designed and intended to be combat revolvers from the start. Because of this, these revolvers have clearances in the various features that put the priority on Function instead of perfect accuracy.
Now, the good news is that a very good and attentive gunsmith can perfect the timing on a S&W revolver, however it's not as easy as it seems. The problem is that when you try and fit the lockwork on these guns tight enough to "perfect" the left handed carry up you can easily set up a Hand/Cylinder Stop bind. Typically this results in a trigger pull that gets noticeably heavier at the hammer release or stalls completely. Basically, it's a VERY narrow ledge in terms of function. Personally, I don't worry about left handed carry up issues and will allow a very minor miss on a right handed trigger pull. However, I don't stage my trigger in double action, if I'm shooting for accuracy I do it in single action.
Now, about your single action trigger pull. I'll tell you right off that your trigger pull is NOT Factory. In fact it's so far from being factory that I would consider it unsafe. I also think that it's very likely that someone other than the factory has been stoning the sear surface on the trigger in your revolver. I don't know who you purchased that revolver from but I would be having a long discussion with them about selling you a revolver that has been "tinkered with". Chances are very good that you now need both a new hammer and trigger and the cost for that should be born by whoever sold you that revolver.
Now for your sighting issues. Now that the misunderstanding has been cleared up it now seems that what you need is a taller front sight. Take a look at the sight base on your barrel above the muzzle. I expect that you'll see a small hole in the font of the sight base. If so, this means that your 625 has the interchangeable front sight system which is spring loaded. Press the sight blade towards the rear of the revolver and then lift the front up and out of the nest. Now take a look at the reverse dovetail base of your sight and commit that shape to memory. Following is a link to a new front sight blade that I believe may solve your sighting issues, if not you can also use your current sight as a pattern to have a machinist make up a custom front sight of any height you need.
Product: Gold Bead Interchangeable Patridge Front Sight .300 High
PS; I realise that my post may not be the news you wanted to hear. Unfortunately I suspect that somewhere on your side of the Atlantic someone has done some "tinkering" to make it a IPSC "special edition" and they didn't know what they were doing. Basically, they took a perfectly good revolver and butchered it with a hack job. As for why I believe this, it's your single action trigger pull. Quite simply I don't know of any method to reduce the single action trigger on a S&W revolver this much except by removing the trigger and stoning the single action sear to an "assist angle". Since it's obvious the trigger has been modified to a non factory condition it's also possible that your timing issues are also a result of tinkering. Hopefully, whoever sold you that gun will stand behind it and correct the mistakes that have been made here. If not, I would suggest that you look into purchasing the S&W Shop Manual by Jerry Kuhnhausen, some tools, and learning how to do your own gunsmithing. It's really not that difficult to learn, basically it's a matter of attention to detail and being meticulous.
PSS; if you do need to replace the hammer and trigger I would suggest that you change the lockwork over to MIM parts. Doing this will save you from having to "fit" the hammer and trigger together because the MIM parts are normally drop in parts.
First off Timing. To properly check timing in the MOST accurate manner you'll need some sized but unprimed casings. This will allow the casings to assist in registering the cylinder to the extractor star. As for why, at some periods the fit of the extractor star to the cylinder was a bit "loose" and casings in the cylinder were the final device to register the extractor star to the cylinder. If your not too fussy about duplicating a cylinder loaded with fresh ammunition you can use fired casings as a substitute but this will improve the registration of the two parts by a small amount. Azoom brand snap caps are also a suitable alternate and I've found their diameter is basically the same as a fresh factory cartridge. If you can get Azoom snap caps in Sweden they are good to have on hand.
Now to check the timing using a method that is considered proper by the largest group of users and gunsmiths. Note, there is some debate on the proper method so what I am presenting is the consensus of what is considered correct. The way to do this is to pull the trigger VERY SLOWLY in Double action and listen for the cylinder stop to crop into it's notch before the hammer falls. If your trigger control is good enough you should be able to drop the cylinder stop in every notch without dropping the hammer once. Now, due to the design of the lockwork in a S&W it is typical for a left handed trigger pull to cause a failure in this test on some chamber positions. The cause is the trigger cocking slightly on it's pivot pin and "throwing" the hand away from the drive pawl. However, with a right handed trigger pull the revolver should pass this test for every chamber position. Failure to pass this test is called a "failure to carry up". Correction for this condition varies depending on how bad it is.
If only one or two chambers are effected the pawl on the extractor can be peened to widen it enough to allow the carry up to be corrected. If every chamber fails to carry up a wider hand is usually fitted.
Now, one note about Timing in terms of Combat Usage. That is that it's obvious that if the trigger is pulled quickly a failure to carry up won't be a problem because the rotating mass of the cylinder will carry it into lock. So, if you are engaging in action shooting a very minor miss on timing may not be worth bothering with. Mainly it's a concern for those who "stage" there triggers to achieve the best accuracy. It's also why S&W advises against staging the trigger in the owners manual, the simple truth is that these were designed and intended to be combat revolvers from the start. Because of this, these revolvers have clearances in the various features that put the priority on Function instead of perfect accuracy.
Now, the good news is that a very good and attentive gunsmith can perfect the timing on a S&W revolver, however it's not as easy as it seems. The problem is that when you try and fit the lockwork on these guns tight enough to "perfect" the left handed carry up you can easily set up a Hand/Cylinder Stop bind. Typically this results in a trigger pull that gets noticeably heavier at the hammer release or stalls completely. Basically, it's a VERY narrow ledge in terms of function. Personally, I don't worry about left handed carry up issues and will allow a very minor miss on a right handed trigger pull. However, I don't stage my trigger in double action, if I'm shooting for accuracy I do it in single action.
Now, about your single action trigger pull. I'll tell you right off that your trigger pull is NOT Factory. In fact it's so far from being factory that I would consider it unsafe. I also think that it's very likely that someone other than the factory has been stoning the sear surface on the trigger in your revolver. I don't know who you purchased that revolver from but I would be having a long discussion with them about selling you a revolver that has been "tinkered with". Chances are very good that you now need both a new hammer and trigger and the cost for that should be born by whoever sold you that revolver.
Now for your sighting issues. Now that the misunderstanding has been cleared up it now seems that what you need is a taller front sight. Take a look at the sight base on your barrel above the muzzle. I expect that you'll see a small hole in the font of the sight base. If so, this means that your 625 has the interchangeable front sight system which is spring loaded. Press the sight blade towards the rear of the revolver and then lift the front up and out of the nest. Now take a look at the reverse dovetail base of your sight and commit that shape to memory. Following is a link to a new front sight blade that I believe may solve your sighting issues, if not you can also use your current sight as a pattern to have a machinist make up a custom front sight of any height you need.
Product: Gold Bead Interchangeable Patridge Front Sight .300 High
PS; I realise that my post may not be the news you wanted to hear. Unfortunately I suspect that somewhere on your side of the Atlantic someone has done some "tinkering" to make it a IPSC "special edition" and they didn't know what they were doing. Basically, they took a perfectly good revolver and butchered it with a hack job. As for why I believe this, it's your single action trigger pull. Quite simply I don't know of any method to reduce the single action trigger on a S&W revolver this much except by removing the trigger and stoning the single action sear to an "assist angle". Since it's obvious the trigger has been modified to a non factory condition it's also possible that your timing issues are also a result of tinkering. Hopefully, whoever sold you that gun will stand behind it and correct the mistakes that have been made here. If not, I would suggest that you look into purchasing the S&W Shop Manual by Jerry Kuhnhausen, some tools, and learning how to do your own gunsmithing. It's really not that difficult to learn, basically it's a matter of attention to detail and being meticulous.
PSS; if you do need to replace the hammer and trigger I would suggest that you change the lockwork over to MIM parts. Doing this will save you from having to "fit" the hammer and trigger together because the MIM parts are normally drop in parts.
I looked back at your other posts and didn't see mention of spitting and off center primer hits. Maybe I missed it. That's points up a definite problem and is why I usually don't get too involved in these kinds of threads. It is too hard to accurately diagnose a problem based on another person's long-distance observations about his firearm (or car, motorcycle, computer, etc.) I watched your video and there is no need to apologize for your English. You do great, and your English is certainly better than my Swedish. Good luck with your revolver. It can be fixed.
big brother
US Veteran
Your revolver has a couple of problems that no one has mentioned so I guess itis my turn. The problem is that the barrel is not straight in the frame. This mean that no matter what else you do, the gun is not going to be accurate enough for the shooting you plan.My own suggestion, based purely on economics is to deep six this revolver and get another. Given your situation with no parts and no gunsmith and no way to send the gun back to S&W I think your best move is to back out. Yes, I have been a gunsmith for about 40 years and yes I could fix your gun but it would be expensive even here. I'm not sure there is anyone in Sweden you can do this work right. I am sure this isnot what you want to hear but it is my opinion based on your photos and the video. That gun is a mess and there is no good way out that I can see.
Big brother, the issue got confused a little when he posted pictures of a different gun he had trouble with. I believe the revolver with the canted barrel is a different gun (a 686) than the .45 that is the subject of this thread. Or I could be confused too.
OP
Silverbullit
Member
Hi mates! =)
Yes, unfortunately I answered one of our mates who wanted to see both my revolvers failing to properly time. I apologize about the confusion!
Thank you mates for your well thought out answers, explanations and support!
And for the link Scooter, thanks!
I did however get eager last evening and started to order parts.
Puzzling together orders from brownells that stays below 100usd each (international limitation) starting with this,
638-000-055 S&W OVERMOLD .310 FRONT SIGHT, GREEN $44.99 1 $44.99
940-210-600 210600000 HAND, OVERSIZE N FRAME $15.99 1 $15.99
713-050-002 #2 POWER SIDEPLATE SHIMS, PKG 10 $17.99 1 $17.99
713-050-001 #1 POWER SIDEPLATE SHIMS, PKG 10 $17.99 1 $17.99
Next orders will be Hammer with internal parts/spring, Trigger with internal parts/spring, pherhaps new internal springs, and any specialty tools needed?
Scooter, I will look in to the Kuhnhausen book! Do you know how I could identify the MIM parts you recommend at brownells? (Hammer/Trigger)
/Silverbullit
Yes, unfortunately I answered one of our mates who wanted to see both my revolvers failing to properly time. I apologize about the confusion!
Thank you mates for your well thought out answers, explanations and support!
And for the link Scooter, thanks!
I did however get eager last evening and started to order parts.
Puzzling together orders from brownells that stays below 100usd each (international limitation) starting with this,
638-000-055 S&W OVERMOLD .310 FRONT SIGHT, GREEN $44.99 1 $44.99
940-210-600 210600000 HAND, OVERSIZE N FRAME $15.99 1 $15.99
713-050-002 #2 POWER SIDEPLATE SHIMS, PKG 10 $17.99 1 $17.99
713-050-001 #1 POWER SIDEPLATE SHIMS, PKG 10 $17.99 1 $17.99
Next orders will be Hammer with internal parts/spring, Trigger with internal parts/spring, pherhaps new internal springs, and any specialty tools needed?
Scooter, I will look in to the Kuhnhausen book! Do you know how I could identify the MIM parts you recommend at brownells? (Hammer/Trigger)
/Silverbullit
tomcatt51
Member
Your 686-5 has MIM parts and your 625 (a -6?) is also MIM.
The 686-5's are the first MIM 686's as is the 625-6 the first MIM 625.
scooter123
Member
With the Performance Center models there are no absolutes on which are MIM and which use Forged parts. Fortunately, it is rather easy to identify the guns that feature MIM hammer and trigger. That is to feel the rear surface of the trigger. On the Forged lockworks the rear surface of the trigger is solid behind the hook you put your finger on. On the MIM lockworks the trigger is grooved in this area so that the cross section resembles a C shape.
Now, before you order any parts you'll need to determine if your present hammer and trigger are Forged or MIM. Going on memory I believe that the MIM hammer requires a double action sear that is designed for the MIM hammer. If you currently have forged internals you'll have to order some additional parts. You'll also need the correct hammer stirrup (the hook thingy for the mainspring) and pins for the hammer and trigger to mount the hand and hand spring. In addition you'll need the MIM trigger lever (the small drive link for the rebound slide).
I'll also warn you that there are 2 different colors of MIM parts. One color is what S&W calls "blued" and it looks a bit like the old color case hardened parts. The other color looks like the flash chromed parts that were featured on some of the stainless revolvers and I believe that this particular MIM alloy is actually a type of stainless steal. If you want matching parts it's likely that you may have to wait 3-6 months to obtain matching parts.
BTW, I'm somewhat up to speed concerning what is involved because my 2011 vintage 625 JM came with flash chromed Forged hammer and trigger. Because I am not really a fan of the narrow serrated trigger standard to my version of the 625 I had ordered a blued smooth .400 inch wide MIM target trigger when I ordered the gun. Got tripped up a bit when it came with forged internals so I've slowly been acquiring the parts to convert it to MIM as they've become available. Last few items I hope to order this weekend, provided they are in stock.
Unfortunately I don't know of any written guide to every single part needed for the changeover so I expect that I'll find I've overlooked something. However I will be taking notes and once the changeover is complete I'll propably post up the part numbers of every part that was needed.
Now, one final tip. S&W has the complete revolver parts listing available on their web site as a PDF files, so it's somewhat helpful as a guide as to what parts were used where and the official part numbers. Unfortunately, it's not very well documented in regards to the dash number for each revolver or the parts so there is a lot of guesswork involved. However, there are clues hidden in there so I would recomend you download it.
Now, for one final note. That is that if your 625 is currently MIM it will make it very easy to replace your hammer and trigger. The MIM parts are so consistent in terms of sizing that normally they are simply a matter of drop in replacement. Fact is the most difficult task may be installing the hand on the new trigger, getting the hand spring correct can be a bit fussy.
Now for one final tip. IIRC most of the competitions in Europe require a single action trigger that breaks at 1.36 kilograms or more. My experience is that a 14 lbs. rebound spring will produce a single action trigger break of 1.4 kilograms. If you want to go a touch heavier you should try a 15 lbs. rebound spring, that should produce a 1.6 kilogram break BTW, I know the weights for each spring between 12 and 16 lbs. because I've tested them all. My preference is the 14 lbs. rebound spring because I find the trigger weight perfect and it also provides a good crisp trigger return.
Now, before you order any parts you'll need to determine if your present hammer and trigger are Forged or MIM. Going on memory I believe that the MIM hammer requires a double action sear that is designed for the MIM hammer. If you currently have forged internals you'll have to order some additional parts. You'll also need the correct hammer stirrup (the hook thingy for the mainspring) and pins for the hammer and trigger to mount the hand and hand spring. In addition you'll need the MIM trigger lever (the small drive link for the rebound slide).
I'll also warn you that there are 2 different colors of MIM parts. One color is what S&W calls "blued" and it looks a bit like the old color case hardened parts. The other color looks like the flash chromed parts that were featured on some of the stainless revolvers and I believe that this particular MIM alloy is actually a type of stainless steal. If you want matching parts it's likely that you may have to wait 3-6 months to obtain matching parts.
BTW, I'm somewhat up to speed concerning what is involved because my 2011 vintage 625 JM came with flash chromed Forged hammer and trigger. Because I am not really a fan of the narrow serrated trigger standard to my version of the 625 I had ordered a blued smooth .400 inch wide MIM target trigger when I ordered the gun. Got tripped up a bit when it came with forged internals so I've slowly been acquiring the parts to convert it to MIM as they've become available. Last few items I hope to order this weekend, provided they are in stock.
Unfortunately I don't know of any written guide to every single part needed for the changeover so I expect that I'll find I've overlooked something. However I will be taking notes and once the changeover is complete I'll propably post up the part numbers of every part that was needed.
Now, one final tip. S&W has the complete revolver parts listing available on their web site as a PDF files, so it's somewhat helpful as a guide as to what parts were used where and the official part numbers. Unfortunately, it's not very well documented in regards to the dash number for each revolver or the parts so there is a lot of guesswork involved. However, there are clues hidden in there so I would recomend you download it.
Now, for one final note. That is that if your 625 is currently MIM it will make it very easy to replace your hammer and trigger. The MIM parts are so consistent in terms of sizing that normally they are simply a matter of drop in replacement. Fact is the most difficult task may be installing the hand on the new trigger, getting the hand spring correct can be a bit fussy.
Now for one final tip. IIRC most of the competitions in Europe require a single action trigger that breaks at 1.36 kilograms or more. My experience is that a 14 lbs. rebound spring will produce a single action trigger break of 1.4 kilograms. If you want to go a touch heavier you should try a 15 lbs. rebound spring, that should produce a 1.6 kilogram break BTW, I know the weights for each spring between 12 and 16 lbs. because I've tested them all. My preference is the 14 lbs. rebound spring because I find the trigger weight perfect and it also provides a good crisp trigger return.
tomcatt51
Member
Nope. The MIM "looks like the flash chromed parts" are flash chromed. It has a nasty habit of flaking off.
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