Is staging a DA trigger becoming a lost skill?

[jag312]

I was taught the technique in 1973 by a Colonel in the Army who took the time to show me what he considered proper techniques for target shooting. Although his official sidearm in the Army was a 1911A1, he had a soft spot in his heart for a Smith & Wesson revolver. He encouraged everyone under him to develop marksmanship skills.

 

[tom turner]

In my years of shooting pin matches and steel matches, a truly "rapid-fire" event, staging the trigger was the way it was done . . . though trigger didn't stop but more than a minuscule amount of time after the cylinder turned during muzzle flip.

When everything came together, the second the front sight came down on the next pin, perfectly aligned with the rear sight, the gun went off again.

S&W revolvers truly ruled these fast, double action events. Heck no . . . anyone who stroked the trigger AFTER the sights came on line with the next pin were WAY behind the winning time!

As someone else said, it is like mastering a musical instrument. Once you perfect the skill it is a wonderful thing to behold!!!

T.

PS: I also agree it is not wise to walk around "half-cocked" with a staged trigger. Then again, this is not at all what I have been talking about, nor what is meant by staging a trigger properly as one cycles the cylinder during recoil to turn a double action revolver into a 1911-beater in a match.

I once beat a winner-take-all money pot in a special steel match with about 35 other competitors. All used 1911 single stacks or high caps except for two guys with Glock 17 + 33 round magazines.

1. The rules of that match . . . not very "revolver friendly" . . .
EIGHTEEN steel targets (plates and poppers) spread in about an 80 degree angle at varying distances from around 10-35 yards.

2. ONE mandatory reload before the last plate falls.

3. Guns start UNLOADED

For fun, I put my competition 1911 away (a tricked out Colt Combat Elite) and went to the line with my chopped barrel 25-2 and a few moon clips. Yep . . . this one:

Umm . . . I only loaded the empty gun, shot fast, didn't miss, and made two blazing reloads . . . dropping the last plate two seconds ahead of the fastest bottom feeder competitor.

Several fine competitors, with lots of ammo in their magazines, and worrying about the clock, "milked" their 1911s and shot rounds low . . . jerking the trigger of course trying to make the gun go off.

A smooth staging of the trigger is just the opposite . . . and no "milking" occurs.

No, you DON'T stage the trigger while pointing the gun at someone you aren't getting ready to shoot! That's entirely different!!! (Then again . . . I've been taught not to point a gun at anyone at any time unless you HAVE to pull the trigger)

 

[cmort666]

Double action staging is something that should be forgotten. Yes, if you are "playing" at the range....but anywhere else it is an invitation to a tragedy.

Very bad idea.

What "tragedy"? If my gun comes out AT ALL, the odds are somebody's getting shot unless a miracle happens, and I don't believe in miracles.

I'm more concerned about the REAL tragedy of me pulling straight through, going off target and hitting somebody who DOESN'T need to be shot. Me shooting the right person isn't a tragedy unless you have a great fondness for people who unlawfully threaten others with deadly force. I don't and I've never felt the need to pretend that I do.

I'm not the guy in a fight every weekend in a dive bar. I'm the guy in the family restaurant or Starbucks reading a $120 book on machine guns. If my gun comes out, it's because you've worked overtime to make that happen, and for no good reason.

I'm not going to shoot somebody accidentally because I staged a double action shot. I'm going to shoot somebody on purpose because I staged a double action shot. And as I said previously, nobody's going to perceive it and there's no reason for me to even mention it if it happens. The odds are virtually 100% that nobody will even ask.

 

[sigp220.45]

When I went through FBI firearms instructor in-service the regime at Quantico greatly discouraged staging the trigger. I got out of the habit, and don't miss it a bit. It seems like its only real use is in competition shooting that mandates double action fire during some stages. If I want a precise shot I'll just single action.

If you have a DAO revolver I guess you're stuck with staging unless you've mastered the straight-through pull.

As far as pointing a gun at folks, I've had my pistol aimed at enough people to fill a couple of buses. I'm happy I haven't had to shoot anybody yet.

 

[Kelly Green]

I've heard the comments that it's cheating and the comments that it's a target skill. I think it's a personal preference. I practice self-defense using only double action. But for precision target shooting DA is not ideal. My 4553 Tactical--DA only--has a light but long trigger pull that can cause (in my case anyway) that short barrel front sight to wander ever so slightly. If I stage the trigger with my sight centered, it takes only a nudge to drop the hammer. You would be amazed at how tight those .45 rounds land.

 

[Bat Guano]

I have a certain tendency to do it, and have to fight the urge. I don't think it's a particularly good idea. When I am shooting DA properly it's mostly subconscious--sort of a zen thing. I once read a book on Japanese archery in which the goal was that "it shoots itself". You kind of get out of your own way and it goes right down the slot while you observe and admire it.

Saw an alleged comment by Jerry Mikulek to the effect that he cured a flinch problem by shooting faster and short-circuiting the issue. Might be something to it.

 

[LVSteve]

I was taught the technique in 1973 by a Colonel in the Army who took the time to show me what he considered proper techniques for target shooting.

...and there is the key. I do not stage a DA revolver as I have DA/SA semi autos for self defence, so pull through is the only way to go for me.

 

[Gutpile Charlie]

What "tragedy"? If my gun comes out AT ALL, the odds are somebody's getting shot unless a miracle happens, and I don't believe in miracles.

I'm more concerned about the REAL tragedy of me pulling straight through, going off target and hitting somebody who DOESN'T need to be shot. Me shooting the right person isn't a tragedy unless you have a great fondness for people who unlawfully threaten others with deadly force. I don't and I've never felt the need to pretend that I do.

I'm not the guy in a fight every weekend in a dive bar. I'm the guy in the family restaurant or Starbucks reading a $120 book on machine guns. If my gun comes out, it's because you've worked overtime to make that happen, and for no good reason.

I'm not going to shoot somebody accidentally because I staged a double action shot. I'm going to shoot somebody on purpose because I staged a double action shot. And as I said previously, nobody's going to perceive it and there's no reason for me to even mention it if it happens. The odds are virtually 100% that nobody will even ask.

___________________________________________________

Ah, such confidence.

I've got a lot of confidence doing a lot of things, but in a touchy, life and death situation, I'm not going to play that game.

Also, in a personal/home defense situation, I'm not going to be using the trigger like in a formal match.

I'm glad some people are so confident.

 

[BarbC]

So how do you stage a DA revolver trigger?

 

[DeadAye]

So how do you stage a DA revolver trigger?

While pulling the trigger - As the hammer comes back you pause just before its going to fall. Now you have a nice light trigger to press, making the shot.
Supposedly the above emulates your revolver's SA trigger. Since all of my revolvers will also work SA I just cock the hammer and press the trigger when I want a really accurate shot. For self defense (IMHO) one is better off practicing fast, smooth, DA trigger control.
But then again - To each their own

 

[cmort666]

So how do you stage a DA revolver trigger?

There's a trick to it which makes it much more certain than some people think.

You put your finger on the trigger so that your first joint is on the left edge of the trigger. You curl your finger around the trigger enough so that when you squeeze the trigger, your finger touches the frame or grip before the DA sear breaks. Assuming that your finger is long enough, this is easy to do and completely repeatable if you practice it.

Our club has a double action revolver league every spring. My scores skyrocketed when I switched to staging that way. And it works for slow, timed, and rapid fire.

Assume for argument's sake that you screw it up. You just do what the people who advocate a continuous squeeze want you to do anyway. And as I said, you shouldn't be pointing guns at people whom you don't INSTANTLY plan to shoot. At least that's not something I do.

 

[The Highlander]

Yeesh, I feel backwards again. I can stage my Python trigger, and it also has the sweetest da pull of any of my revolvers. The pull-through on my Python is so easy it hardly even disturbs my sight picture. I only stage it when on the range or dry-firing. Mostly dry-firing, but that is a daily thing anyway.

On the other hand, I have never figured out how to stage a Smith trigger.

For what it is worth, I was taught to shoot both pull-through and staging. Maybe part of why the staging was included was the teacher was an old fart army range master. He also has an exemplary competition record, so I sure as heck don't intend to question his methods.

 

[Dr.-d]

Staging a DA trigger pull on a revolver with regards to Target shooting and Defensive shooting is an apples to oranges comparism even with the same gun. Shooting at the range for pinpoint accuracy in SA and DA mode for shooting at targets and to develop skills for hunting game is all to it's own. Developing skills for CCW at the range is all to it's own as well. Part of CCW type training and a big part of it is never put your finger on the trigger as you draw your weapon and until your ready to shoot and when your finger enters that area never rest it on the trigger period. You train not to stage in this case. It is easy to say all this now when a life threatening situation is not going on that is why the CCW carrying person that uses the same gun or similiar needs to have that realization that comes with training differently. Target shooting/ hunting game or CCW. If you do both you need to train for both.

 

[RufusG]

Have I just become a dinosaur or is shooting a DA trigger just becoming a lost art?

This is somewhat changing the subject but not entirely. While watching the "Top Shot" reality shooting show, I noticed that when the contestants went to the "nomination range" to shoot one shot from a Beretta 92 at a target representing one of their competitors, they mostly all cocked the gun first and fired it SA. They were firing at a fairly close target. These are supposed to be expert marksmen, and they can't attempt a short shot with a 9mm in DA?

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Part of CCW type training and a big part of it is never put your finger on the trigger as you draw your weapon and until your ready to shoot and when your finger enters that area never rest it on the trigger period. You train not to stage in this case.

Does stage training include putting your finger on the trigger prior to being ready to shoot?

 

[cmort666]

Does stage training include putting your finger on the trigger prior to being ready to shoot?

Not the way anybody that I know does it.

It's EXACTLY the same as squeezing straight through, except that you stop at the full cock position JUST long enough to make sure that the sights are properly aligned, something that's MUCH easier to do when you're NOT in the middle of a long DA trigger pull.

If you're not planning to shoot, and in a self-defense situation, immediately planning to shoot an assailant, there's no reason to have your finger on the trigger AT ALL, regardless of HOW you squeeze the trigger.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

There's a trick to it which makes it much more certain than some people think.

You put your finger on the trigger so that your first joint is on the left edge of the trigger. You curl your finger around the trigger enough so that when you squeeze the trigger, your finger touches the frame or grip before the DA sear breaks. Assuming that your finger is long enough, this is easy to do and completely repeatable if you practice it.

Our club has a double action revolver league every spring. My scores skyrocketed when I switched to staging that way. And it works for slow, timed, and rapid fire.

Assume for argument's sake that you screw it up. You just do what the people who advocate a continuous squeeze want you to do anyway. And as I said, you shouldn't be pointing guns at people whom you don't INSTANTLY plan to shoot. At least that's not something I do.

Very, very true. One of my first guns was a Model 40. I used to sit and trigger-cock that gun hundreds of times without letting the hammer fall. I didn't have a TV, so I had to aim at the floor. It was a long time ago, so I don't recall whether I always practiced sight alignment while doing so. But it's very easy to get to the point where you can just trigger-cock about 96-98% of the time. In real life, your intention is to pull all the way through with a good sight picture, anyway, so the 2-4% in practice doesn't mean much.

Most of my carry guns are DAO, either FFB (from factory birth), like the 40s and 642, or BT (by transformation), like the bobbed 10s and 12s.

 

[cmort666]

Most of my carry guns are DAO, either FFB (from factory birth), like the 40s and 642, or BT (by transformation), like the bobbed 10s and 12s.

I don't own any DAO guns, and wouldn't have any of my current ones converted to that. On the other hand, I definitely wouldn't mind a pre-lock Centennial.

What would be REALLY nice would be something like a Centennial or Bodyguard in a modernized version of the .41 Long Colt with the bullet and bore diameters optimized for accuracy with modern non-heel bullets. I'd love something like that with a 180-200gr. LSWC-HP.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

On the other hand, I have never figured out how to stage a Smith trigger.

It most likely takes a lot more practice, and is done the way cmort666 describes. As I mentioned earlier, I started off early with a Model 40, and pretty much had learn to stage (or so I thought) in order to shoot accurately. So I learned.

A Colt has what some folks call a stacking DA trigger pull. That is, it just gets heavier and heavier until it actually gets to where it will go off. This makes staging a Colt much easier, and safer if you were stacking when you probably should have been shooting, or just keeping your hand on the gun in the holster. The whole discussion comes down to whether you should be pointing a gun at a vital part of some dirtbag you haven't really decided to kill. I am really not qualified by experience to get into that discussion.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Not the way anybody that I know does it.

It's EXACTLY the same as squeezing straight through, except that you stop at the full cock position JUST long enough to make sure that the sights are properly aligned, something that's MUCH easier to do when you're NOT in the middle of a long DA trigger pull.

If you're not planning to shoot, and in a self-defense situation, immediately planning to shoot an assailant, there's no reason to have your finger on the trigger AT ALL, regardless of HOW you squeeze the trigger.

Okay. Then perhaps someone could point out where the invite to tragedy is in the above method of staging?